CMA Connect

Is the brand still relevant? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, sits down with two of the CMA's Brand Council members. Peter Rodriguez is the Founder and CMO of Brand Igniter Inc., and Bruce Symbalisty is the Chief Solutions Strategist at Reality Engine. Tune in for insights from Bruce, Peter and Alison as they discuss what a brand is, how it creates value, its relevance in today's marketplace, and how to effectively measure how it drives business results.

[00:00:00] Narrator: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA's CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:22] Alison Simpson: In today's episode, we will explore brand's critical role in driving business success. As the marketplace continues to evolve at an incredibly rapid pace, it's even more important than ever for marketers and for business leaders to truly understand the value of a strong brand. Joining me today are two industry experts and members of our CMA's brand council.

[00:00:43] Alison Simpson: They bring unique perspectives on the power of branding, and this is promising to be a great conversation. Peter Rodriguez is the founder and CMO of Brand Igniter Inc. And Bruce Symbalisty is a chief solutions strategist at Reality Engine. Peter and Bruce will share their insights on how brands create value and also contribute to long term business growth.

[00:01:02] Alison Simpson: Throughout our discussion today, we're going to tackle a whole host of questions and issues, starting with the question of brand relevance. In the light of the tsunami of change that's impacting our profession, how relevant are brands today? We're also going to discuss how marketers can effectively measure the impact of their brand building efforts.

[00:01:21] Alison Simpson: Peter and Bruce will share their thoughts on the critical role of marketers in ensuring that brands are seen as mission critical to business success. And how they can help bridge the knowledge gap among executives by speaking the language of business. There's certainly some debate in the global marketing profession today, questioning whether brands are still relevant in today's marketplace.

[00:01:41] Alison Simpson: So we'll tackle that in our discussion as well. It's clear that we have a lot to cover and two brand leaders with diverse opinions, which is sure to make for a great conversation. So welcome today, Peter

[00:01:50] Peter Rodriguez: and Bruce. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. It is also a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:56] Alison Simpson: I want to kick things off brand, depending on your [00:02:00] background and your point of view can have surprisingly many, many different definitions.

[00:02:05] Alison Simpson: So I'd love to have you each start by sharing how you define brand. How does a strong brand create value for a business? Peter, why don't you kick things off?

[00:02:14] Peter Rodriguez: Of course. Thank you very much. And brands are incredibly valuable. And in my opinion, there are three pillars that define a brand. One, it's a promise.

[00:02:23] Peter Rodriguez: Two, it's a shortcut. And three, it's an asset. It's a promise of consistent delivery, no matter what. Every time that you interact with the brand, it's a shortcut to understand value. Instead of having to repeat the attributes or benefits of a product, the brand does the shortcut so that we understand it, that we can create value.

[00:02:46] Peter Rodriguez: And the last piece is probably the most important. It's an asset. It's an asset, not only because it can be seen on our. Statements, but because it creates value. It is the one thing that enables an organization to [00:03:00] create higher margins by virtue of offering a higher price point versus others. And that is an engine for financial performance.

[00:03:10] Peter Rodriguez: So in the definition that best works for me. Those three pillars have become crucial in order to understand what the importance of this is for the economy, for companies, for us marketers. And the better we understand how to use this as an asset, we can create that value that our organizations pay us to create.

[00:03:35] Peter Rodriguez: It is more than just the Concept about promotion. It is the asset that enables us to succeed as an organization.

[00:03:44] Alison Simpson: That's a great definition, Peter. And Bruce, how would you define brand?

[00:03:48] Bruce Symbalisty: Well, when we look at brand and it's actual, the word itself, Origins. It comes from the Norse, actually, and it means to burn.

[00:03:59] Bruce Symbalisty: So then when [00:04:00] we look at kind of historically, what was it used for? I mean, we know that ranchers and cowboys branded cattle to identify it. And this is what's very important is when people saw that brand, they would know what that cattle livestock who it belonged to. And Also, when you saw that brand, you also knew whether that was a good person or bad person.

[00:04:25] Bruce Symbalisty: So this is why a brand actually does the heavy lifting of an organization because the brand in and of itself makes a business memorable. It helps encourage customers to buy from you and it supports marketing and advertising. And it has a lot of extension through organizations to all its stakeholders.

[00:04:47] Bruce Symbalisty: Holders internally and externally.

[00:04:50] Alison Simpson: So I would love for you each to share an example of a brand that is known for really driving business impact.

[00:04:59] Peter Rodriguez: [00:05:00] Well, I love to kick in with one example that continues to amaze me every time I talk about it. And, um, it's Apple. I continue to give them my money. Not because it's a better product, not because it's the better phone, but because the brand has captured what I want.

[00:05:18] Peter Rodriguez: They understand exactly what I want and not what I need. And I think that this is a very important distinction. We try so hard to get people to buy the things that we think they need. When in reality, people buy and pay a premium for the things that they want. And usually those wants Are the source of this economic value that brands create the value that you perceive from Apple.

[00:05:44] Peter Rodriguez: That's what you pay for. And I'd like to make this the key example. It's perceived value that separates brands. It's not product value. And one of the things that I'd like to share as part of the value that I perceive from Apple is the [00:06:00] simplification of technology. I am not a techie guy. I don't know much about it, but I know that if I have Apple on my side, They will take care of me.

[00:06:08] Peter Rodriguez: I will call a human. We'll always answer. They will stay with me until I fix my problem. And that value is priceless. Will I throw in 2, 000 for a new phone? Yeah. Next time I will. And with a smile, I will be very happy to drop that money because of the value I perceive from them. Might not be the value of the product, but the perceived value is crucial.

[00:06:29] Peter Rodriguez: So that to me is one of the many examples that I think that I, as a marketer can learn from, it's not the product. Okay. It never is. It's about the perceived value that we get from the brands.

[00:06:41] Alison Simpson: That's a great example. And the fact that they can command such a premium and we're willing to pay it with a smile speaks volumes.

[00:06:47] Alison Simpson: So Bruce, what would you add to that?

[00:06:49] Bruce Symbalisty: Apple has invested a lot into their brand. Apple created the unboxing experience through brand and people created anticipation and love [00:07:00] for it. And so that's what I think is very exciting about how they, they have made changes by springboarding off of what their brand means.

[00:07:10] Bruce Symbalisty: But, you know, if, when we look at other consumer brands, like I'll say Fenty cosmetics, they changed the world of cosmetics by introducing 40 shades of foundation in beauty for all. And in making, making it an inclusive product line, but interestingly enough, almost every other brand in the world now has followed suit and expanded their brands because of it, because it recognizes the consumer demand and value in individuality and a personal connection to their brand.

[00:07:44] Alison Simpson: Those are both such powerful examples and examples of literally billion, in one case, trillion dollar businesses that brands have helped build. So with those sorts of success stories, it's a bit surprising for me that in today's rapidly evolving [00:08:00] marketplace, it's being questioned, are brands still relevant?

[00:08:03] Alison Simpson: So two part question, why do you think the relevance of brands is being questioned today? And then let's answer the question, are brands today still relevant?

[00:08:12] Bruce Symbalisty: We live in a world where the time to tell stories now is shorter, attention spans are shorter, and so the marketplace has become very quick to make judgments because the access to information through social media channels, internet and websites, people can collect, choose and determine whether they trust you.

[00:08:35] Bruce Symbalisty: And so from a branding perspective, a brand needs to be strong, but people are questioning it because of the speed of the market is moving so quickly. Does a brand have time to take hold? Well, this is why it's even more important than ever to invest in brand. For that long term, long tail approach to an organization and a company.

[00:08:59] Bruce Symbalisty: And [00:09:00] so that's why I think it is relevant, but it's being questioned because organizations want short term results. They want, uh, they have to answer their quarterly stakeholder reports and those kinds of things. And they just don't perceive it as a deep value item. And this is coming as a generalism.

[00:09:19] Peter Rodriguez: I would add that one of the biggest challenges that we encounter is that, uh, in order to be relevant, we need to talk about what people care about.

[00:09:29] Peter Rodriguez: CEOs and CFOs care about the business results, care about the balance sheet and the cashflow and the profit and loss statement. Our brands are the engine. Any brand, not only our brands, any brand is the engine that generates that. And it's not the top line sales only. That's where I think that we have missed the boat.

[00:09:51] Peter Rodriguez: The conversation is not about creating volume at the top line. The biggest impact that marketing does is in creating that gross [00:10:00] margin. Gross margin is really when, when we start talking. And every time I have the opportunity to speak with CFOs or CEOs, the moment we start talking about margins, then the conversation becomes strategic.

[00:10:12] Peter Rodriguez: It becomes, help me. Increase my margins. How can I make them accretive? If we bring forward recommendations as marketers that can do that, then we get the center of attention. As in many organizations, that's still the case, so I don't think we're gonna, we're losing relevance and maybe brands are losing relevance because they're spoken outside of that correlation, causation.

[00:10:37] Peter Rodriguez: Between brand value in the minds of consumers, willingness to pay, and gross margins, which is what business leaders care about.

[00:10:47] Bruce Symbalisty: There are branding leaders, and then there's a, I'm going to call it a mushy middle, where there's a lot of. Branding that is occurring, either me to branding or, uh, [00:11:00] uh, where it is not as advanced as a brand that has been invested in.

[00:11:05] Bruce Symbalisty: And I think that that mushy middle has a lot of competition, a lot of confusion, and, uh, there, there's no leadership in that space.

[00:11:16] Alison Simpson: And there's such opportunity in the mushy middle for someone to actually. apply good business and brand principles and really differentiate themselves. Now, Peter, you've spent a lot of your career in top tier global brands, a lot of time with the C suite, and also living by the rule of quarterly results are paramount.

[00:11:36] Alison Simpson: So, you've got some great experience, and I'd love you to share how can marketers effectively measure the impact of Of brands on driving business results and what are the metrics that they should really be focused on?

[00:11:49] Peter Rodriguez: That's a great question. I, um, to your point, that was one of the biggest debates that we always have in the C suite and my, what I've learned is [00:12:00] that the conversation.

[00:12:02] Peter Rodriguez: Gets better when we start defining who is responsible for what, and I think that there is a big need to identify that the short term, the operating plan is mostly in the hands of sales for delivery, and it's not necessarily in the hands of marketing. It is, there is some level of that. Of impact. But the way that I have seen it happen in the companies where I've worked is that we need to create the environment so that the short term can happen.

[00:12:36] Peter Rodriguez: So marketing creates the strategies that will help create this value that we can convert every year into profit in the measurement of ROI. Has shifted from measuring the overall marketing mix, which includes product development, research and development, pricing, and all of the mix that we control down to just the ROI on [00:13:00] campaigns.

[00:13:00] Peter Rodriguez: And that should be in the tactical Area of the conversation. So I saw that and I still see today that when the conversation can be more clearly articulated in terms of, is this an operating thing that we're talking about for the quarter and we need to lap next year's quarter and make sure that we deliver growth.

[00:13:21] Peter Rodriguez: That's a whole different conversation. Then do we create the environment so that next quarter, like, A year from now in two years from now, we have the assets that allow us to deliver those results. That is the realm of strategic marketing. And when we start talking about those things. In collaboration with sales, then it becomes a much more measurable thing.

[00:13:47] Peter Rodriguez: So there are things that we are measuring that are not relevant. So for example, measuring only campaigns is limited, but for example, we're not measuring top of mind, share of mind, which is a [00:14:00] precursor of market share. Market share is one of the things that allows us to have longterm success. Those things.

[00:14:06] Peter Rodriguez: Are in the realm of marketing, those things are usually not talked about as the metrics in the short term. For example, repurchase rates. How are we predisposing people versus last year to prefer this brand at a higher price? That is an indicator of success next quarter and next year's quarters and the change in customer lifetime value.

[00:14:30] Peter Rodriguez: That is rarely talked about because those changes actually tell us if our marketing initiatives from product distribution, pricing, et cetera, are working. So, net net, I think that that conversation about incrementality. It's usually now outside of marketing. We don't get invited as many times. We are just like, well, here's your budget and make it happen.

[00:14:55] Peter Rodriguez: And what I see, unfortunately, is that now when we [00:15:00] call performance marketing, marketing, it's not really marketing. It is sales with a Facebook account or with an internet access, because they're working on the short term. They have to deliver now, which is great. We provide the foundation so that people want to pay more.

[00:15:18] Peter Rodriguez: Today, because we built that two years ago. And I think that that's a part that would benefit the conversations in the collaboration between sales and marketing. I clearly can see that in the operating plan and then marketing being primarily driving the strategic plan.

[00:15:35] Alison Simpson: Now, Bruce, you and your role from an agency perspective have worked across very diverse brands, very diverse industries.

[00:15:42] Alison Simpson: So I'd love you to share your thoughts on. What are the ways to effectively measure the impact of brands on driving business results?

[00:15:50] Bruce Symbalisty: Within the, the brand space, there's many metrics to be able to kind of look at how well a brand is doing over time, both [00:16:00] short term and long term. But the flip side of this particular coin is then moving into things like all the organizational financial metrics, of course, and that profit margins and, and revenue growth and those kinds of things.

[00:16:15] Bruce Symbalisty: And then aligning things that are customer acquisition costs. People often don't think about what happens. Let's say you're selling a very sophisticated product and it takes a year to encourage somebody to sell. If you were able to shorten that timeline to six months, that has a huge impact on an organization and brings customers in faster.

[00:16:39] Bruce Symbalisty: And if a brand supports that. To the sales team, that's a powerful metric. So there's many others as well, but these kinds of metrics, I think, support the case for a brand working with other departments in an organization.

[00:16:55] Alison Simpson: Now, Peter, earlier in our conversation, you shared your, part of your definition [00:17:00] of brand was it's a shortcut.

[00:17:01] Alison Simpson: I would build on that and say a brand is also. Protects you against reputational risk. And certainly we've got examples from years ago with Tylenol, a Canadian example with make believe where there was a significant business issue that many companies never would have recovered from, but the power of their brand was a key.

[00:17:22] Alison Simpson: Asset in their ability to recover. So do you want to share a little bit about that?

[00:17:27] Peter Rodriguez: You mentioned Tylenol and that is very close to my heart. That's one of the brands that I've had the privilege of running. And I had the opportunity to learn the Credo, the Credo from J& J. Started to be even more relevant because of that horrible situation that they had to face in the eighties when someone tampered with the product and there was human impact to the worst of the worst kind.

[00:17:55] Peter Rodriguez: But the one thing that I took away from learning the [00:18:00] creator is that what did the CEO do when things go bad and there is a need to leverage the brand value. To save a company. He went on live TV at that time. There was no social media. He immediately said, we're recalling everything. And then we're going to take action to make sure that you are safe.

[00:18:20] Peter Rodriguez: So he took care of the brand first. He said, Tylenol is going to be out for a while. I don't know for how long, because we're recalling everything, but we will come back and we, your trust is the most important thing. And within a lightning speed period, they came back and they relaunched the brand and they recovered all of the market share and they became the top brand again.

[00:18:44] Peter Rodriguez: And it was not the product. At the end of the day, the product, um, had to, you know, some safety measures had to be. Updated, but the value of the brand rested also on how people reacted. And that taught me [00:19:00] something. It is not what we sell. It's not what we say. It's how we say it. It's how we do it. And it's how the brand does things.

[00:19:07] Peter Rodriguez: They said, this is how we're going to make it stand for you. This is how we're going to fix this. And this is how you're going to love it again. So I think that that level of. Commitment in understanding the value of branding from the highest levels of our organizations. Is something that will help not only our profession, we in Canada are facing a crisis of productivity.

[00:19:34] Peter Rodriguez: Why? Because we are not creating enough value. In my opinion, by creating this value with brands is how we start reversing that. This is how we start creating something people want to pay more for. Not only in Canada, but we can do that with the globe.

[00:19:50] Alison Simpson: Now the three of us have built our careers on.

[00:19:55] Alison Simpson: Understanding and leveraging the critical role that marketing has in driving [00:20:00] business success. And we all fundamentally believe in the very important role brands have in delivering on that. Many, many of our listeners, if not all of our listeners will feel exactly the same way. Yet when you open it up to the broader business community, that is not as obvious or evident.

[00:20:17] Alison Simpson: So Bruce, I'd love you to kick off the answer to this question. As marketers, what do we need to do to ensure that brands are seen as mission critical to business success?

[00:20:27] Bruce Symbalisty: I know that brand in and of itself is misunderstood within organizations. And so having Education and having a concerted effort within an organization and with internal stakeholders is paramount to really kind of ingrain the understanding of how brand Integrates within an organization and has a lot of touch points, everything from [00:21:00] the strategic planning within an organization with strategies and innovation and how it communicates to the organization's Culture, which helps kind of build that team relationship of working together for that result of value driven results within an organization, but it goes beyond that, Allison, you know, product innovation, the consumer experience, the moment of purchase.

[00:21:30] Bruce Symbalisty: And then ultimately business results is when brand is working with all of them. And what I, what I would suggest is, you know, even just a listening ear to have this ear of branding to what work is being done with an organization can actually be very powerful to generate ideas and move things forward.

[00:21:56] Alison Simpson: Well, very well said. Now, Peter, I know. You and I connect on the [00:22:00] importance of speaking the language of business. So I would love you to add your thoughts too.

[00:22:04] Peter Rodriguez: Of course. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I will build on the point before, uh, of literacy in the C suite, knowing our audience is crucial, our audience is not speaking the language that we speak internally as marketers.

[00:22:21] Peter Rodriguez: Therefore, if we speak this dialect of marketing, if I, If I may use that word and don't translate it into the common business language. We don't have to go crazy about the numbers in order to explain what we say, but we have to be very clear in using one very simple tool. The biggest tool that I have used as a marketer in order to persuade the decisions on investment in marketing is a Proforma P& L.

[00:22:52] Peter Rodriguez: A Proforma P& L is the simplest, most powerful slice. That will get [00:23:00] the attention from the C suite. My suggestion is that we marketers could use only five lines. Top line, cost of goods, gross margin, marketing, investment, and EBITDA. In other words, before interest, taxes, and depreciation. If we can show those two, one without my idea.

[00:23:19] Peter Rodriguez: One with my idea side by side, there is no way that people will not stop and listen in the C suite. So when I say speaking the language of business, I don't mean we have to speak cash flow all the time. No, it is just one of the biggest advocates for one of the biggest relaunches I had the opportunity to do in our market was a CFO.

[00:23:42] Peter Rodriguez: And he wanted me in his office because I only spoke about by making these changes, by doing this, we're going to get people to buy more for more money, more frequently on a higher margin. This is [00:24:00] how your P& L is going to look like. Don't do it. And we're going to end up this way. That simple, and it was one page and it was the page that I was using all the time for that.

[00:24:11] Peter Rodriguez: And that was a major shifting strategy because it would shift this brand from a cash cow into an investor and obviously they listen because we were talking only the business, the language of business. We're not talking, make this brand bigger, make this brand more relevant. No, we were talking about, this is what's going to happen with everything that we're doing at language of business in action, I believe is something that would benefit all of us.

[00:24:36] Peter Rodriguez: Because it's irresistible. Actually, it is the most charming piece of communication. We can have is a proforma PNL

[00:24:44] Alison Simpson: that is such a powerful example, and it also reinforces as marketers. One of the core skills we have in areas of expertise is our ability to analyze the situation, analyze it. And audience and understand how to be [00:25:00] relevant and compelling to them.

[00:25:01] Alison Simpson: So we do such a good job of that in our external efforts, but we don't always take the time or make it a priority to really do that with our internal stakeholders and truly understand what will be compelling to them and speak in a language that a CEO can understand. So Bruce, I'd love to turn it over to you.

[00:25:20] Alison Simpson: We've talked a little bit about performance marketing. The reality in a good economy and even more so in a challenging economy is that delivering short term business results is mission critical as well as ensuring that the business is well positioned for long term growth. So how can marketers balance that pressure for short term results and quarterly performance along with the need for long term brand building?

[00:25:47] Bruce Symbalisty: The ability to design a preferred future and model where you want to go strategically Is part of that overall or overarching [00:26:00] strategy, the marketplace is going to determine and look at the brand of itself and choose whether to authenticate it. And trust. We have to remember, although we're selling business to business or business to consumer, we're still selling to humans and humans are emotional.

[00:26:20] Bruce Symbalisty: Humans make choices. Like Peter said, though, there are the humans that look at analytics and data and make choices based on that, but when I look at it from an internal perspective, it is about education. And when Peter's talking about literacy, he's talking also about education, and I really do believe that.

[00:26:43] Bruce Symbalisty: Uh, as marketers and as branders, networking internally within your company with other departments and people and let them understand the value that you drive within an [00:27:00] organization as a brander and as a marketer, and I know that those are soft skills, not necessarily analytical skills, but what they do is they start to build consensus.

[00:27:12] Bruce Symbalisty: And within an organization, the greatest thing you can do is have everybody rowing in the right and same direction. And that's consensus. And then that's how, that's how I look at it.

[00:27:24] Alison Simpson: Great perspective. And I would also add to that the power of any short term tactical marketing, any performance marketing will always be stronger when it's leveraging a strong, powerful brand and a deep relationship with the consumers that it's trying to attract.

[00:27:40] Alison Simpson: Peter, I'd love your thoughts on this as well.

[00:27:42] Peter Rodriguez: When there is bad marketing, when there is lazy marketing, there is no way that we can deliver the short term. Then that's when we start delivering it. You know how? Price, and that's the worst place where if you want to be now, I think that when we do have a [00:28:00] strong, the opposite that I said before, when we do have a foundation of a strong brand value plan, and we can prove as marketers that we have persuaded people to be predisposed to paying what the value of the brand is, then sales has a much easier order.

[00:28:19] Peter Rodriguez: Thank you. Not easier, but better way to do things. The biggest challenges that I have encountered in my career in this company is when I come to a place where they say, well, we're having a hard time and we cannot reach the quota for the quarter and we don't, we don't, we don't have promotions. We only have loyalty programs that we can push is it?

[00:28:41] Peter Rodriguez: Well, what are we saying? When we have nothing to say about the brand, that is the worst thing, because that should have started two years ago, three years ago, building that value so that we can capitalize on that. But you know, that strategy is, cannot be made in one quarter, not even in one year. Sometimes it has to be proven, tested, [00:29:00] developed, changed, updated.

[00:29:02] Peter Rodriguez: By the time we go to the reset, the shelf reset, then sales is so powerful. That they get what they need. And we sell a lot more and we sell at a higher level and we sell at a higher price point. What we do with pricing and validate the pricing structure takes time. Distribution or availability of services or products or whatever is it that we're selling takes time.

[00:29:29] Peter Rodriguez: But when it's done well, then sales can go and execute the quarterly gains in the targets don't become so hard to achieve if we have that foundation.

[00:29:40] Bruce Symbalisty: Going off of what Peter was talking about is generating value in the short term, you know, immediate sales and driving traffic through campaigns. Those kinds of things are going to continue to remain, but what we're seeing is a transition to a long term relationships.

[00:29:59] Bruce Symbalisty: And [00:30:00] a very current example is Jameson Vitamin Supplements. Is actually now investing into their brand by taking investors behind the scenes on how they manufacture their product with high quality ingredients, because they are actually seeing that the marketplace is requiring that and demanding that.

[00:30:24] Bruce Symbalisty: And I believe like what Peter said, they're looking into the future. Several years. They're setting the table for that because that's what a leader does.

[00:30:35] Alison Simpson: Thank you both. That's very valuable insights were shared through that and Peter building on your comment around the drug of discounting. It's obviously not good from a margin perspective.

[00:30:45] Alison Simpson: The other risk following that strategy is you're teaching your consumers that if they want your product, just wait another week or another month, because it's bound to go on sale. And that's really hard to recover. I knew the time would fly by with the 2 of you. And that has definitely been the case today.

[00:30:59] Alison Simpson: So before I [00:31:00] let you go on with your busy days, I would love to close off today's discussion by having you each share a piece of advice that you would provide for our listeners. Bruce, why don't you kick us off?

[00:31:10] Bruce Symbalisty: I believe that the greatest thing to do is to give it away. So give away your knowledge, share your knowledge, mentor people within your organization on branding.

[00:31:24] Bruce Symbalisty: I believe that this will be highly influential. And building a strong culture around what it means to belong to a brand, to a company, and that will have a halo effect that will affect everyone and be very powerful and influential. I believe. The greatest skill is to work together and to collaborate to create new spaces for creating value.

[00:31:55] Bruce Symbalisty: And that's how companies of the future will succeed. That's how [00:32:00] marketers will succeed is through collaboration and working together and lifting each other up. And I think that that is, that is my advice.

[00:32:12] Alison Simpson: That is great advice. Thanks, Bruce.

[00:32:15] Peter Rodriguez: One of the biggest piece of advice that I would give is go and spend time with your consumer.

[00:32:20] Peter Rodriguez: Don't try to know them through research. I mean, research is good and I will always support it. But just go out and do shop alongs. If you sell stuff for, Breakfast, go have breakfast with them and just watch them spend time in. If you are in consumer packaged goods, just spend time in off rails, in food basics, in Metro, in Costco, and just watch people.

[00:32:42] Peter Rodriguez: I do, I still do that. I just go there and I'm just watching people. So I find it fascinating how. They make decisions. And the last thing, be passionate about marketing, love marketing,

[00:32:53] Bruce Symbalisty: breathe marketing, eat marketing, but, but don't freak, don't forget to sleep. [00:33:00] Okay. Dream marketing. Yeah.

[00:33:04] Alison Simpson: Remember it's a marathon and sprinting a marathon.

[00:33:06] Alison Simpson: I know from firsthand experience is virtually impossible. So great advice to both of you. Thank you for a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you have a great afternoon.

[00:33:15] Peter Rodriguez: Thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity and thanks for, thanks for having me. Thanks, Bruce. Thanks, Allison.

[00:33:22] Bruce Symbalisty: Thank you, Allison. Thank you, Peter.

[00:33:28] Narrator: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA. ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Is brand love measurable magic or marketing myth? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson and Elemental's VP of Client Services, Justin Haberman, dissect the power of emotional connections in business. Discover why brand love matters, how to quantify it, and the touch points for fostering lasting consumer relationships.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:22 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. W  ith your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:20:00 - 00:00:42:18 Alison Today's episode is all about brand love and building deep emotional connections between brands and the consumers in a very fast paced, results driven marketing landscape. And joining me today is Justin Haberman, who is the Vice President of Client Services at Elemental. He's also a member of our CMA Brand Council. Justin has a real passion for creating these lasting bonds between brands and their customers.

00:00:42:20 - 00:01:03:12 Alison Justin's also worked on both the brand and the agency side of the marketing. We share that in common, and he's run and managed PnLs for leading brands in highly competitive sectors. So he really understands the importance of brands delivering ROI as well. He also brings a wealth of knowledge and insights to the table. So I'm really looking forward to diving into this very important topic with him.

00:01:03:18 - 00:01:23:12  Alison And in the episode, we're going to dive into the concept of brand love. We're going to explore why it matters more than ever in today's marketing landscape and its role in building business. Justin will also share his thoughts on the difference between brand love and brand loyalty, and how marketers can effectively measure and quantify the impact of brand love on their business.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:25:20 Alison Welcome, Justin. It's great to have you with us today. 00:01:25:22 - 00:01:30:06 Justin Thank you. What a great introduction. I am very excited to talk brand love today.

00:01:30:08 - 00:01:38:02 Alison Well, let's dive right in. I want to start by having you define brand love, and how in your mind it differs from brand loyalty.

00:01:38:04 - 00:01:57:15 Justin So yeah, I think it's a good question because at one point in time, you know, loyalty and love were one and the same. And they both measured brand loyalty. But nowadays, as we've, you know, started innovating the way we can measure loyalty, there's been a divide where loyalty can be more of a purchase loyalty or behavioural loyalty.

00:01:57:15 - 00:02:07:00 Justin And those are things that we can easily measure, where brand love is more of an attitudinal loyalty, and it's a deeper emotional connection to one's brand.

00:02:07:01 - 00:02:36:03 Alison I think that's a such a great observation, when I also think about loyalty versus brand love. There are brands like Ferrari that many people have great affection for, and brand love for doesn't necessarily translate to purchase affinity. And then there are other brands where loyalty can be incentives through different loyalty programs. So that's a different kind of loyalty that probably comes with affection, but doesn't necessarily have to come with brand love.

00:02:36:05 - 00:03:05:08 Justin Well, exactly. And, you know, there are things like you mentioned that can be incentivized. And some of those things can actually take us down the wrong path, because, you know, one may be loyal to a brand because of a promotion or convenience or even proximity, but those aren't necessarily true measurements of brand love or brand loyalty. You know, a good example that I like to give is an analogy of how I choose my barber.

00:03:05:13 - 00:03:25:05 Justin Right? So I've been going to the same barber for the last year, and it's not necessarily because I'm extremely loyal to him. You know, if he were to move a city away, I wouldn't follow him. I go to this barber time and time again because it's easy for me. It's right down the street. And, you know, for something like a haircut, I don't want it to take up too much in my day.

00:03:25:06 - 00:03:42:01 Justin So if you looked at the metrics that are available, engagement or purchase, you're going to see, wow, Justin's really loyal to his barber, but it, on the other end of it I'm really not. And so I think there is a false measurement that a lot of marketers lean on, which can get us into trouble.

00:03:42:03 - 00:04:00:06 Alison I love your barber example because based on your description, which I think is a very astute one, I actually do have brand love for my stylist because I moved and now it's a,    instead of being a ten minute commute, it's a 40 minute commute. Yet they still have my business. So it's such a great example of the difference between loyalty and brand love, for sure.

00:04:00:07 - 00:04:13:12 Alison So why do you believe that focusing on building brand love and emotional connections with consumers is the greatest opportunity for marketers, especially when we're in a world very much focused on short term results and sales numbers?

00:04:13:14 - 00:04:34:06 Justin Right. Yeah, and it's a discussion that I have quite a bit. I mean, it's really easy when you need to answer to shareholders or managing your PnL. It's really easy to look to the short term results. You know, how do I hit my numbers this quarter? Unfortunately, you know, when you start taking that approach, it's this never-ending race to chase sales.

00:04:34:06 - 00:04:56:13 Justin And it can be very reactionary. And so the value that comes from building a brand or focusing on brand love is it's a little bit of like a cheat code or a shortcut for driving future sales. And I really encourage marketers to take that approach and be a little bit more proactive in how they invest in that approach.

00:04:56:14 - 00:05:17:05 Justin So, you know, another analogy or example I'll give is, you know, why do we put away money for retirement? It's really easy to spend money on the things we need or want right now, but we invest in a retirement fund to make our lives easier in the future. And that is kind of how I would encourage a lot of marketers to look at brand building efforts.

00:05:17:06 - 00:05:41:18 Justin It's making our future lives easier, more profitable. It's going to be a lot easier to obtain new clients or new customers and retain new clients and customers. So there's a lot of value that comes from that. And on top of that, I think a lot of people these days, especially the younger generation, they really want to love a brand and they really want love to be returned back to them

00:05:41:18 - 00:05:45:15 Justin if they're going to invest that time and effort into a brand.

00:05:45:17 - 00:06:18:22 Alison So I've been in the CMO seat in very competitive sectors before, so I've felt the heat firsthand. I'm a big, big proponent and believer in the power of brand. I've also faced the pressure of quarterly monthly sales results and delivering results, so it's always helpful to have proven examples or any starts too, that our listeners can leverage with some of their maybe skeptical colleagues or with the executive suite to really help validate why investing in brand is so important.

00:06:18:23 - 00:06:24:00 Alison If you have any cases or stats that you could share, that would be, I know our listeners would love to get their hands on it.

00:06:24:02 - 00:06:53:09 Justin Yeah, of course. I mean, I've looked at a few different stats over the years. One that jumps out is close to 90% of consumers are prepared to love a brand, and they want that type of relationship with their brand. That's a huge number that speaks volumes to how we need to build and foster those types of relationships. You know, a lot of people are investing, like I mentioned before, time, money, etc. and they want to do it for brands that live up to their values, share the same beliefs.

00:06:53:11 - 00:07:16:08 Justin So that's one that comes to mind. Another one is probably on the more you know, profitable side. When you invest in a brand, it's a lot easier to make more money. And you know, we see that with some numbers that I've come across in terms of, you know, it's a, it's seven times easier to sell to an existing customer than to try and sell to a new customer.

00:07:16:10 - 00:07:18:11 Justin So those are just a couple that pop out.

00:07:18:12 - 00:07:28:15 Alison So you've compared building brand love to building interpersonal relationships. And I think that's a very apt analogy. Can you elaborate a bit on the analogy and also share some of the different stages involved?

00:07:28:17 - 00:07:49:21 Justin Yeah, I'm glad you called that out because, you know, when we talk brand building, it's one thing to get people on board with the value of it, but then it's another thing to try to explain how do you achieve it? There's a lot that goes into building brand love, and I think because of that, a lot of people are hesitant or scared to dive into it.

00:07:49:21 - 00:08:18:04 Justin And so, like you mentioned, the the analogy to building interpersonal love is a good way to remind people how easy it can be. We're all experts at it already. It doesn't have to be this daunting task. We've all, you know, dated, we've all fallen in love with someone. Well, at least most people have. And so, you know, if you start looking into how that relationship evolves, you can translate that into some of the things you need to do as a brand.

00:08:18:06 - 00:08:41:07 Justin Simon Sinek, marketing guru, author. He talks about how to grow love and I really liked his explanation of how to do that. He talked about how love doesn't happen overnight. It's not a moment in time, you know, you don't love your husband or wife or significant other because of one giant thing they did. It's a lot of little things that add up over time that people remember.

00:08:41:07 - 00:09:05:18 Justin And that's what, you know, creates love in these relationships. So I really encourage a lot of brand marketers to look at their brand-building efforts in a similar way. You know, look at all the touch points and where you can build love over time and comparing it to how love grows, you know, from a personal standpoint. You start by dating someone before you get married.

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:32:02 Justin And there's kind of three stages of love. There's the initial passion, lust phase. And this is where you're trying to, you know, create an attraction with someone. And from a brand perspective, this is where you want to get them excited about your brand. Promote trial. Get them to try it for the first time. And then you move to this intimacy stage where it's all about closeness and connectivity and building that relationship.

00:09:32:07 - 00:10:01:15 Justin And from a brand perspective, you know, this is where you start looking at usage frequency, getting people to break routines, get them to adopt you in their everyday lives. And only once those two things have happened can you start moving to the decision or commitment phase. You know, from a personal standpoint, this is maybe the big marriage proposal, but from a brand perspective, this is when brand love really happens and when people are truly loyal to you or a product or a brand that you're promoting.

00:10:01:17 - 00:10:21:13 Alison Building on the analogy, sadly, one in two marriages ends in divorce, and brands also can run the risk of their consumers divorcing them. So what can be done to help prevent divorce or losing that connection and that level of love from your audience and consumers, once you have it.

00:10:21:15 - 00:10:47:06 Justin Right, it can come and go pretty quickly. And so I think to prevent any kind of divorce or disengagement, you need to remember that this is a never-ending job. Just because you won someone as a customer or just because you got married to them, it doesn't mean that the job is over. In my opinion, that's the moment where the job is just beginning, and that's where we need to focus more of our efforts, right?

00:10:47:06 - 00:11:06:22 Justin You need to continually keep people guessing, coming out with new things, finding new ways to exchange ideas. All of that comes in really handy with keeping people connected and engaged. And I think that's why, like, social media has gained so much popularity, because it is a way to do exactly that.

00:11:07:00 - 00:11:14:02 Alison So is brand love feasible for all products? And especially when I think about ones that are much more commoditized and mass?

00:11:14:04 - 00:11:49:05 Justin I would say for sure. There's a reason why entire industries have been built on brand love. You know, I look at the streetwear industry and how brands like Supreme can sell a plain white t-shirt for 80, 100, multiple hundred dollars. It's because of the brand they've been able to build. You know, you also look at examples like No Frills, which is a value brand, private label brand that typically or traditionally has never had a huge emotional connection with it.

00:11:49:06 - 00:12:10:17 Justin They've been able to do a great job. And kudos to the marketers on on that team for building a relationship with their audience. You know, they were able to look at some universal truths that existed of how people looked at private label brands and kind of spin it on their head and, and take ownership of how people like to shop and, and how people can feel proud about finding a deal.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:18:06 Justin And, and that's just another example of, you know, I think every product, every service, can have a brand.

00:12:18:08 - 00:12:33:04 Alison Those are great examples, Justin. So it's obviously important for marketing to demonstrate business impact. And that can also be more challenging for brand marketing. So what are your thoughts on measuring the ROI of brand-building efforts, and what metrics or tools would you recommend?

00:12:33:06 - 00:12:58:12 Justin It's a very, very tough one, for sure, because everyone wants to find that return on investment, and with something like brand-building, it can be more difficult, but there's places to look right. Things like attitudinal surveys are a great way to to measure it. Things like reputation quotients that go into really understanding, like the emotional quality of an experience and not just surface level things.

00:12:58:12 - 00:13:25:07 Justin So I urge people not to get caught up in some other measurements, like engagement or retention, because like we mentioned before, it can be a little misleading. But to elaborate on on this, I also think, there's two other points that I want to mention. One is, I think it really comes down to who you're speaking to. You know, we as marketers, we're also salespeople, and we need to figure out how to talk about things in a way that resonates with our audience.

00:13:25:07 - 00:13:47:15 Justin And so if you're talking to a CFO, your answer may be a little different than if you're talking to, you know, a marketing director. I'm just picking positions, but you really need to talk about things in a way that is going to matter to the people you're talking to. So an example of that would be if I was talking to a CFO, I was talking to someone who really cared about the numbers.

00:13:47:17 - 00:14:10:04 Justin I would start trying to connect the dots and what my brand building efforts could do. So, you know, if I can drive future demand and I can measure that through unaided awareness, I maybe can then link it to, well, if people have a higher unaided awareness, what's their cost per acquisition? And does that start going down because they're now further down the funnel?

00:14:10:04 - 00:14:35:11 Justin And if their cost per acquisition goes down, does that mean that they have a higher consumer lifetime value? I'm just throwing out measurements right now, but looking at different metrics along a full path can be a way to answer that for someone who's very number-driven. Whereas on the flip side, the other way to look at it is to spin it on its head and kind of remind people of why they make certain purchases.

00:14:35:13 - 00:14:57:01 Justin You know, why have you made certain decisions? Why have you chosen one product or one brand over another? And once you start relating it back to people's personal experiences there, there is a light bulb switch moment where they realize, well, actually, brands do have an effort. And even though I may not be able to measure the way I want to measure it, it still matters.

00:14:57:03 - 00:15:26:12 Alison There is skepticism around why brands important, and it's it's still too often thought of as, if you have money left over invest in brand, which is completely backwards thinking. But when you're working on monthly sales reports, when you're reporting to a board on a quarterly basis, showing quarterly results becomes your Kryptonite in many ways. So and if you layer on top of that, a tough economy, the brand budget can be one of the first things that gets cut.

00:15:26:14 - 00:15:39:19 Alison So the power in your example with Supreme and No Frills was given to very easy to understand examples of how they have defended their business and profited by investing in brand.

00:15:39:21 - 00:16:05:06 Justin I mean, a couple other brands that come to mind, with one that jumps out is something like Heinz and their their efforts in building brand and the amount of money they put behind their brand-building efforts. You know, I think of the one campaign that was Draw Ketchup. I forget if that's the exact title of the campaign, but when, you know, they went to market and asked people to draw ketchup, the first thing people drew was a Heinz bottle.

00:16:05:08 - 00:16:33:02 Justin And that just shows the power of brand-building and how it can help elicit a deep-rooted connection with people that doesn't leave their mind. And it keeps the brand top of mind. And when the brand's top of mind, they walk into a store and the first thing they see is something that's recognizable, like a Heinz ketchup bottle, they're going to go grab that off shelf versus having to put in the time to do more research to educate themselves on the qualities of different ketchup bottles.

00:16:33:04 - 00:16:41:08 Justin Like I mentioned before, it's just, it's a shortcut moment that makes selling much, much easier and much cheaper.

00:16:41:10 - 00:16:58:15 Alison That's a great example. And the other Heinz campaign that I love, that was really built on a universal truth, is that behind the back-of-the-house, in a restaurant. You see people with Heinz bottles filling it with generic ketchup. And I waitressed my way through school to pay my own way. And we actually did that.

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:15:07 Alison And then you would take out to the table, and there were customers that absolutely knew when they turned over that Heinz bottle, if the ketchup was coming out too fast, it wasn't the real thing. And they called us on it. So that's such a powerful example of why brands are important and how it does ultimately drive strong business results as well.

00:17:15:07 - 00:17:17:22 Alison And that's also a great example of brand love.

00:17:18:00 - 00:17:44:06 Justin Exactly. I mean, another example that comes to mind is the Pepsi versus Coke battle. And it's been going on for years and years and years. But there are some very strong, loyal Coca-Cola drinkers that wouldn't be caught dead drinking a Pepsi, but all of a sudden Pepsi launches the Pepsi Taste Challenge and they do a blind tasting and they get people to decide what is actually their preferred flavour of cola.

00:17:44:08 - 00:17:59:19 Justin And, you know, they ended up going with Pepsi. And that's an example that shows that, you know, a loyal customer can be so strong-minded, so stuck in their way that they're not willing to try anything else. And sometimes we need to force them that there may be better options out there.

00:17:59:21 - 00:18:17:17 Alison And my ultimate test for the Pepsi and Coke challenge is if you're out for dinner with friends and someone asks for a Coke and they say, sorry, we only have Pepsi. How often do they say, well, that's all right. And I have friends who say, no thanks and will completely change to another drink, whereas lots of friends will just say, okay, that's all right.

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:21:14 Justin Right. Exactly what, what kind of cola drink are you?

00:18:21:16 - 00:18:24:23 Alison I'm actually not a pop drinker. 

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:31:06 Justin Well, I'm one of those shifting loyals where I will go wherever the availability exists.

00:18:31:08 - 00:18:39:08 Alison But, yeah, when you meet people that are truly in love with either Coke or Pepsi, it's pretty, as marketers, it's pretty motivating to see, too.

00:18:39:10 - 00:19:07:02 Justin Well, and that's the golden ticket, right? As a marketer, that's the the end game. That's what we're trying to achieve, is get someone to become so loyal with our brand that they're willing to, you know, abandon everything else for the brand. And, you know, when that happens and we can create that sense of loyalty. We're not only closing a sale, but we're also creating an army of ambassadors or advocates of a brand that will do a lot of our heavy lifting for us.

00:19:07:04 - 00:19:23:10 Justin So we as marketers have an easier job because all these loyals that exist out there are selling the brand, promoting the brand, pushing it to their friends and family at zero cost to us. And that, to me is like the epitome of marketing.

00:19:23:12 - 00:19:31:18 Alison Absolutely. And no matter how good we are as marketers, we will never have the same credibility as a friend recommending something.

00:19:31:19 - 00:19:50:23 Justin Correct. Yeah. It's, it's funny. And that's where I think a lot of brands who've seen success on a lot of social channels like Instagram or TikTok, they've done really well where they don't try and speak to people. They try and engage people in a natural, authentic community dialog.

00:19:51:01 - 00:20:09:23 Alison So I want to switch gears a little bit. You've got a great career, tremendous experience. So I'd love to wrap up our session today by having you share one piece of advice for our listeners that are looking to continue to evolve their careers and flourish the same way that you have.

00:20:10:01 - 00:20:42:06 Justin One piece of advice... it would probably be the fact that we need to remember that we're communicating to humans. You know, a lot of this discussion today has been around building an emotional connection. And we as humans want that. We crave that. And we're not always rational people. We are sometimes irrational. And I think sometimes we can forget that because as marketers, we want to measure things and we talk about users or visitors, and it takes us away from the human element.

00:20:42:07 - 00:20:55:02 Justin And I think once we remember that we're talking to humans and we ourselves as humans and we go through life and we make decisions the way we do, it allows us to make decisions that are better for our customers, our consumers.

00:20:55:04 - 00:21:11:15 Alison There's actually some great research that validates what you're talking about from an emotional versus rational decision-making. Most human beings primarily decide based on emotion and then justify the decision through rational reasons. So it's, it's great advice on a bunch of fronts.

00:21:11:17 - 00:21:26:13 Justin It really is important to continue to have this on our forefront as we look to plan all our marketing initiatives, you know, not forgetting how the long term can aid short term results and vice versa. It's a really, really important topic.

00:21:26:15 - 00:21:37:17 Alison I absolutely agree, you can't draw down on brand equity if you haven't built it in the first place. So Justin, I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. I really appreciate you sharing your love of brand love and your experiences with us today.

00:21:37:19 - 00:21:43:06 Justin Thank you. Yeah, really appreciate the chat.

00:21:43:08 - 00:21:55:22 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CMA's CEO, and Dave Burnett, CEO of AOK Marketing, delve into the rise of generative AI and its transformative effect on B2B marketing. The discussion touches on the importance of complying with company guidelines, the rapid advancement of AI tools, and how maintaining a curious mindset is essential for marketers to stay ahead in an ever-evolving industry.

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;20;04 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00;00;20;06 - 00;00;45;16 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of AI and its transformative impact on B2B marketing. I'm joined today by Dave Burnett, the founder and CEO of AOK Marketing, a conversion-focused digital agency. Dave's also a board member for EO, the entrepreneur's organization. Dave definitely qualifies as an early adopter and thought leader in the AI space. He's been part of OpenAI's beta testing since 2019.

00;00;45;18 - 00;01;14;09 Alison He also teaches two of our CMA Gen AI training courses and brings a wealth of experience and insights to the table today. Throughout, our conversation will follow Dave's personal journey with AI from his days as an early tester with OpenAI to now using AI tools in his everyday work. He'll share the story of his a-ha moment when ChatGPT, a conversational AI tool, dramatically impacted his business and how he chose to embrace the technology and adapt to strategies in response.

00;01;14;11 - 00;01;45;19 Alison As we explore the unique use cases and opportunities for AI in the B2B space, Dave is going to provide some great examples of how companies of different sizes are building AI-powered solutions. We'll also discuss the caution and hesitation often present at the executive level. So for marketers who may be a bit intimidated or reluctant to start experimenting with AI, Dave also offers practical advice on getting started on treating AI models like highly-educated new employees, and helpful tips for how to interact with these tools to get the best results.

00;01;45;22 - 00;01;48;23 Alison Welcome, Dave. I'm thrilled to have you joining me today.

00;01;48;25 - 00;01;53;16 Dave Thanks so much Alison, and I really appreciate the invite. And yeah, I'm excited about our conversation today.

00;01;53;23 - 00;02;05;24 Alison Me too. So let's start by having you walk us through your personal journey from AI, from being an early beta tester with OpenAI to now using Gen AI tools in your everyday work.

00;02;05;26 - 00;02;27;06 Dave So I actually found out about OpenAI a long time ago, back when Elon Musk was founding it. And I thought, hey, this is a really interesting thing. So I signed up to be an early beta tester. And just for clarity, I am not in any way technical. I'm a marketer. I'm not one of those technical marketers, really, who gets deep down into programming.

00;02;27;08 - 00;02;47;19 Dave So this was just something that was an interest of mine back in the day. And so OpenAI came out. I got accepted into the beta program. Obviously they had low bar, a low bar back at that point. And when I got accepted in, it was really exciting for me. And they had already launched a couple of language models, so ChatGPT clawed a bunch of these,

00;02;47;19 - 00;03;08;17 Dave others are all large language models. And when people are talking about AI, they can talk about a and a bunch of different ways. But the most common and prevalent way that people are thinking about it today is as a large language model. So the first language model they came out with was called Ada, Ada. And then the second one they came out was called Babbage.

00;03;08;17 - 00;03;24;09 Dave And the third one that came out with was called Curie. So you'll notice the A, B, C. And then they came out with DaVinci. And as I was going through all these, I mean, they were terrible. You know, they couldn't do anything. You're in there playing around and you know, it just okay, this doesn't do what I want it to do.

00;03;24;09 - 00;03;47;19 Dave And all of a sudden, OpenAI launched ChatGPT, and it was exponentially better than anything else that we've seen in the world. So what I realized in that in that timeline was this is a tool I can use. But the problem was everybody else realized it was a tool they could use, too. And so one of the things that we do as a digital agency is content.

00;03;47;21 - 00;04;09;09 Dave And all of a sudden, so it was released the end of November, ChatGPT. By the end of January, we lost all of our content clients. So we lost, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of revenue, because of this tool. So that was my a-ha moment. The less polite word is the holy crap, you know.

00;04;09;10 - 00;04;28;22 Dave Oh my goodness moment. And as a result of that, I had to learn. I had to adapt. So I spent two weeks in February, right after it had been released, three months after it had been ChatGPT had been released just trying to get up fully up to speed because I was, you know, dabbling, I was dipping my toe in.

00;04;28;24 - 00;04;49;10 Dave And then I realized, all right, I'm now caught up. You know, I literally spent two weeks, I'm now caught up. And then in early March, of course, they released, GPT four. So it was a whole other exponential leap forward. But I had a foundation. What I realized is that everybody's on a bit of a journey when it comes to AI.

00;04;49;12 - 00;05;10;25 Dave So the stages of the AI adoption framework are fear, skepticism, holy crap, investigation, adoption and mastery. And everybody kind of goes through those, I've found. If you can see where your people or yourself are on this curve, you know what the next logical step is. And I love talking to the skeptics who are like, it's not that good.

00;05;10;29 - 00;05;24;29 Dave It's not going to get there. I'm like, okay, well, you just haven't had your holy shit moment yet. You know, it's something's going to have to do that for you. And once you do, then we'll have another conversation that'll be a different conversation. So hopefully that helps a little bit with the background of where I got to back then.

00;05;25;04 - 00;05;45;27 Alison It's it's a great story. And there is there's negative moments and there's positive. Wow, I finally figured out why everyone's so excited about this. You obviously had the more negative side and I can't imagine literally overnight a significant portion of your business vanishing. So I definitely want to talk a bit more about that. The other piece that I want to talk about,

00;05;46;04 - 00;06;08;15 Alison so in your journey, you very much were an early adopter. You weren't technical. So that gives all of the marketers listening who don't come from a technical background, comfort that you don't need to be technical. Even in the very early days of the beta testing you were doing with OpenAI. The piece you're not giving yourself credit for that I think is mission critical for everyone's journey is curiosity.

00;06;08;17 - 00;06;33;02 Alison Because if you weren't curious enough and open-minded enough to raise your hand and join the beta in 2019 for something that really none of us knew, understood, and certainly didn't at that point understand the potential of. So I think that's a really important part of the journey, where you're probably being a bit too much of a humble Canadian by not giving yourself the credit for that open-mindedness and curiosity and for everyone listening.

00;06;33;02 - 00;06;43;12 Alison I think those are such important elements, not just for being successful with new tools like Men AI, but for a successful career in marketing.

00;06;43;14 - 00;07;11;19 Dave No, I agree. Curiosity is a massive thing. I've always been curious. I'm always interested in what's new, what's coming, what's next? How can I do this? Because, to completely date myself. I graduated university before Google was invented. So the fact that I now own a digital conversion focused digital marketing agency, that's SEO. And, you know, like everything digital, it required a learning curve.

00;07;11;22 - 00;07;38;16 Dave You know, I mean, I remember Google launching. I remember, you know, when they bought what's now AdWords or Google Ads. I remember all those different things. And so seeing these things and realizing that I have to keep on top of them and doing my best to keep on top of these things is just what you have to do in order to be able to survive, because I don't know what's going to come out next week, next month, next year, and so it's all it's all exciting and to be honest, keeps it interesting.

00;07;38;21 - 00;07;51;09 Alison Absolutely agree. So after you did hit that brick wall that Get AI created in your content business, how did you pivot and where does your business stand now with leveraging Gen AI.

00;07;51;11 - 00;08;12;11 Dave So I use it every day. And so it's a tool. I look at it as say for example, you were a you were an author or writer. You would have Word open or Google Docs. Whatever you use as a marketer, you might have Canva open or Illustrator or whatever you might use if you're a on the design side or Figma or whatever tool that it is that you use in your, in your work.

00;08;12;13 - 00;08;43;23 Dave And so I've incorporated it into my work and it's just made me, me personally, exponentially more efficient. I can do the same amount of work in an hour that I used to do in an entire day, maybe multiple days. You know, a lot of my work, it tends to be on the, strategy side. It tends to be on the, you know, proposals and talking to people and understanding and taking giant amounts of information and condensing them down into information that people can understand.

00;08;43;23 - 00;09;12;19 Dave Because parts of SEO, parts of Google Ads, parts of conversion rate optimization can be very technical. It's really being able to say, look, you know, if you for content generation, for example, do stuff and then talk about the great stuff you've done, that's one element of it. But where AI comes into it is AI is great for doing foundational content, baseline content, you know, for example, in a promotional products business, what is embroidery?

00;09;12;23 - 00;09;34;28 Dave What is screen printing? You know, what is a t shirt made of? Like all those every business has its foundational content that you need. So how I'm using it today, I mentioned that I've got multiple tabs open, but it also is great for, you know, consolidating all those things and getting getting a good read on what's going on with those.

00;09;35;01 - 00;09;59;07 Dave So just to put it in a better example, if, for example, a news piece comes out around Google and for example, Google had an algorithm leak and their algorithm leak was highly technical, it was literally the way you could program into Google how how the search engine works. So I took that information. Not being a technical guy took all that information.

00;09;59;07 - 00;10;23;28 Dave I knew enough how to create a text document from it, put that into Google. And, you know, and I tried to figure out what it was, didn't know. So I then took that text document and put it into ChatGPT and said, what does this mean from an SEO perspective? And it spit out these five things. You know, technically you need to do this, local SEO, you need to do this, like all these different metrics and all these different instructions.

00;10;24;04 - 00;10;43;22 Dave And then I was able to dig down and dig down and dig down and then take that and actually apply it in my business and apply it for our clients. So it really is a great tool to be able to take massive amounts of information and make it, you know, dumb it down for me, just quite honestly. So yeah, it's a fun way to use it.

00;10;43;22 - 00;11;07;28 Alison We talk so much around the creative uses of ChatGPT, and certainly it's a tool that way as well. But you broadened it to a more, it's also very powerful from a strategic perspective, from a planning perspective in running a business. It's also an incredible efficiency play. So beyond the marketing capabilities and ways that ChatGPT can enable us in running a business and in managing a team, it can also be incredibly powerful.

00;11;07;28 - 00;11;11;08 Alison So I appreciate you sharing some of those examples for sure.

00;11;11;10 - 00;11;28;28 Dave Yeah. And it's one of those things where you have a choice to make once you start to use these tools, you know, ChatGPT being primary and one of them, you are going to get so much more efficient. You're gonna have a choice, you know, do I spend my time doing eight times more stuff? You know, if I can do in one hour what used to take me eight hours?

00;11;29;00 - 00;11;43;27 Dave Or do I do one hour's worth of work and go to Myrtle Beach or something? You know, I, you know, whatever, whatever it may be, you know, so it's it's really a choice you're going to have to make. And I think those people who embrace this as something that says, okay, this is a this is kind of jet fuel.

00;11;44;00 - 00;12;02;06 Dave I can go from, you know, just a biplane or, you know, a paper airplane to being on a jet. And this is how fast I can move. This is how much information I can do. This is how, how, how, how, how I can outcompete. It's really a tool that you should use, for sure.

00;12;02;08 - 00;12;16;18 Alison Now, Dave, in the B2B space, I'd love you to share some unique use cases and opportunities that you're seeing for leveraging Gen AI, and also to share if it varies, based on the company size or the industry that, the brands and marketers are part of.

00;12;16;21 - 00;12;41;27 Dave Absolutely. I mean, it all depends. So starting at the enterprise level, there are often rules that individuals have that they have to adhere to. You know, I know in some organizations you can't access anything on your local server or from your, your intranet or from your IP address that ends in dot AI. There are a lot of considerations you have to take into account the security side of things.

00;12;41;27 - 00;12;59;07 Dave You have to take into account what data you're putting into, and you know how you can adopt. So as a as a marketer who's looking to early adopter, you know, adopt these types of things, you are going to have to figure out what works for your organization. That's first and foremost, because you do not want to compromise any data.

00;12;59;07 - 00;13;15;10 Dave You do not want to compromise any information. You want to make sure that you are following the rules that are set, and the rules are there for a reason. Now, if you're in a small or medium sized business, well, it's kind of the wild, wild West, right? You can just go for it and do whatever you want. So ignore everything I just said.

00;13;15;10 - 00;13;35;21 Dave No, I'm just kidding. You still need to adhere to those things. So from a small to medium size, what I'm finding is people are tend to be plugging in to some of these public models. So they're, they're paying for paid subscriptions or they're doing things where they kind of have their own information. And then you know, separating it out.

00;13;35;21 - 00;13;58;17 Dave So they've got their own information, but are kind of reaching out to these public models to then, you know, power it basically. So they're trying to create these walled gardens that aren't quite as walled off, I don't know, chain link fence instead of walls? So as a result of that they they're able to use the, as the models get better and better and they're able to have their own data referencing.

00;13;58;20 - 00;14;27;09 Dave So and then the small businesses, I mean, they're just they're just accessing, giving stuff away and doing all that kind of stuff. So when I say giving stuff away, what I mean is a lot of these models are trained off of your data. So if you upload a client proposal into ChatGPT without putting any of the safeties on or anything like that, technically that information becomes part of the training model for ChatGPT to train others so other people could utilize that.

00;14;27;09 - 00;14;57;00 Dave And I, I mean, do you have a lot to worry about? Probably not, if you're, but I you got to be careful. Talk to your lawyer. I just, you know I know this is going to go a broadcast if you're going to share any information, but at the same time, you know, you can, just understand that if you make the data anonymous and just take out the client's name and just be - a digital marketing agency is creating a proposal for a landscaping company.

00;14;57;02 - 00;15;22;00 Dave And this landscaping company is, you know, needs X, Y, and Z, zed, x, y, and zed things. And, you know, it's just it's really something that's that you can use. Just don't be so specific. So I'm seeing people use these really varies based on their organization size and then what they're trying to do with it. I mean, I've been in meetings where people are still head in the sand.

00;15;22;00 - 00;15;40;11 Dave This is really something that I'm very afraid of. You know, they're on that that spectrum in terms of the, the framework. And I think they're, we're all going to potentially move forward through the framework. But, you know, depending on where they are and who they work for, I, I'm seeing a lot of different things with how they're using it.

00;15;40;13 - 00;16;04;19 Alison And if, if they're in a highly regulated industry or as you call it, a large organization where there are those limitations, and I would still encourage marketers to start experimenting with Gen AI in their personal life, on their personal computers, because it's not going to get easier to to learn. It's not going to get any less intimidating. So the longer that they're waiting, the harder it will be to catch up.

00;16;04;19 - 00;16;15;17 Alison And it's also a missed opportunity, like when you call out that you can now in an hour, do something, enough work that formerly took you a day, like, we all want to benefit from that as well.

00;16;15;19 - 00;16;50;00 Dave Absolutely. And I think it's it's really important to for people to experiment, as you were saying, no matter what organization size that they're in, because the more you play with these tools, the the better you'll get. So from my perspective, it makes the most sense to think about these AI tools as a newly-graduated, newly-minted MBA student who is highly, highly knowledgeable, super, super highly knowledgeable, and yet they know nothing about you and they know nothing about what you want from them.

00;16;50;00 - 00;17;14;04 Dave So just like a new hire, new employee, you know, they're excited. Well, I mean, the machine's not necessarily excited, but they're excited to to learn and to do and to give you the right answer. But they need to know some context. So it's really important to start off with, all right, when you're when you're entering any information into this and we'll just focus on the large language models like ChatGPT.

00;17;14;07 - 00;17;41;03 Dave Just, you know, you are a, or whatever you want that particular model to be. So for example, you are a proposal writer and and then that frames the the rest of the input and what you're going to give instructions as that. So depending on how you're using the tool you really got to frame it first. So you are a, and then tell it what it is and then go and say, okay, here's some research, here's some information.

00;17;41;05 - 00;18;01;29 Dave And if you really want to kind of go next-level with it, you can say, here is the type of an answer that I really like. Write me an answer like that. So for example, if you were using it to write a resume, I don't know, say you wanted to switch jobs, you could put an ad, you can upload a resume and say like, here's all, here's all my LinkedIn profile, here's all the information for my LinkedIn.

00;18;01;29 - 00;18;23;24 Dave Here's all the amazing stuff I've done. Here's the people have referred me,  here are the people of, you know, endorsed me, whatever. Here's all the articles I've written. Here is a resume. Take all this information and write a resume about me. And by the way, you also should put in, and do not make anything up, because that helps limit the creativity of the model.

00;18;23;27 - 00;18;48;20 Dave So sometimes we touch briefly on it, but it does hallucinate. And so hallucination I view as creativity. So it gets creative sometimes, a little too much. So you just do not make anything up. And then of course once it see it, it produces, it writes you that resume, double check it. Because any of these tools are only going to get you 80% of the way there.

00;18;48;22 - 00;19;08;23 Dave That's the other key thing that I think people miss is they just take what they got, put it into an email, or put it into a proposal or put it into something else. The tool will only get you 80% of the way there. And just like an intern really, or no, or a new hire, they are going to do some great work with how they're trained, but they're not going to get it exactly as you want.

00;19;08;23 - 00;19;24;27 Dave It may not be in your voice, your tone, whatever it may be, and then you need to go in there, actually read it, actually take a look at it, correct it, and then use it if you're going to use it. But it will get you it will get you 80 or 90% of the way there pretty much every time.

00;19;24;27 - 00;19;25;20 Dave So yeah.

00;19;25;20 - 00;19;50;03 Alison Such great advice. And I really love your intern and new employee analogy. Because by investing a bit more time upfront, by helping coach them and support them along the way, they do get better and the outputs become even more valuable. And that is so true of ChatGPT. And if you have people that are listening that are a little skeptical or intimidated or don't want to try it in their first experiences, they try and say, well, this is crap.

00;19;50;06 - 00;20;01;18 Alison It's easy to then say, so I don't need to bother, instead of saying, I'm part of the reason, that's crap. This is part of the learning I need to go through to really get the value and the benefit out of the tool and to really understand it.

00;20;01;21 - 00;20;23;08 Dave Yeah, it's it's it's important. And I think, you know, there's references for example, if you're like, how big is New York? Right. What are you, what are you really asking? Are you looking for how big is it in square kilometres? Are you looking for how many people live in New York City proper, or are you looking for, you know, any any of these other things?

00;20;23;11 - 00;20;42;11 Dave You need to be very specific. So if you said how many people live in the greater New York City area, and then you could refine that to, you know, how many people live in Manhattan and then double check those answers because it might have made it up. So use Google as well to kind of reference things.

00;20;42;11 - 00;20;55;06 Dave And, and you know, more and more AI is coming into the search engine world, but, yeah, you definitely want to double check and fact check, whatever it is that you find just using that example.

00;20;55;08 - 00;21;01;11 Alison That's a great example. And adding the simple caveat "and don't make anything up" to your promise is incredibly powerful.

00;21;01;14 - 00;21;34;23 Dave Yeah. Well it's still makes stuff up though. That's like, it's it kind of follows instructions but not 100%. And you can also do things like, forget everything previously input or forget everything above. So you can do those types of things as well. And those tend to help, you know, kind of reset. But I always just start another chat and then I'll just start another chat just so I can I can kind of reset based on things, because in my experience, they the tools themselves tend to go off track after a while.

00;21;34;25 - 00;21;52;28 Dave And so you kind of need to reset and you'll start to notice, be like, that quality of that answer wasn't as good as it was a while back, so you can actually copy a chunk of answers you liked, put it in a new chat, and that seems to work well. But again, it'll just come with playing, playing with these tools.

00;21;52;28 - 00;22;14;06 Dave But there are other tools for marketers out there. I mean, there are tools that will write you songs, you know, from, from start to finish. There are tools that will develop creative content for you in terms of your your imagery. There's tools that will do a whole bunch of different things for you. So there are videos, there's amazing different things out there that you can do.

00;22;14;09 - 00;22;34;23 Alison Absolutely. And I love that. One of the CMA training sessions that you do for us, I love how you make it very relevant to the learners that attend, and have them leverage all of the different tools to actually write a marketing plan. So putting it into practice in a way that any marketer can understand and benefit from, it's a really great, teaching technique that you have.

00;22;34;23 - 00;22;36;03 Alison So thank you for that too.

00;22;36;05 - 00;22;43;29 Dave I'm happy to share for sure. What might be fun is to create a song, you know, because this is a podcast.

00;22;44;03 - 00;22;48;23 Alison I love it. We're going to create a CMA Connect podcast theme song on the spot.

00;22;48;25 - 00;23;11;22 Dave Okay. So this is Suno, this is a fun tool. This is something that, I'm not sure how many of the listeners would have, will have explored before and basically what this is, is a library of created songs and it's it's amazing. So what I'm going to do is I'm just going to hit create. What type of music do you want the theme song to be?

00;23;11;24 - 00;23;22;06 Alison It definitely needs to be energetic. It needs to be, feel more future-focused, trying to think of specific genres that would deliver on that.

00;23;22;08 - 00;23;45;04 Dave I mean, we could start off with a pop song. What do you think about doing a pop song? Sure. An energetic pop song about the CMA podcasts. We have two different pop songs here. So we have Tune into the CMA, Tune into CMA. So I'll start with this one first.

00;23;45;06 - 00;23;57;07 AI Song New stories every week. Fresh voices with a tweak. Tune in. Don't miss the beat. CMA. Bringing heat.

00;23;57;09 - 00;24;20;07 Dave So that's that's the first one. So the interesting thing is what it does is it writes the copy, the words of the song and then creates different beats. So I'm going to play the second one now and it's got the exact same lyrics, but it'll be a little bit different.

00;24;20;09 - 00;24;35;18 AI Song New stories every week. Fresh voices with a tweak. Tune in. Don't miss the beat. CMA. Bringing heat. Laughs and tears all day long. Conversations where we belong. Grab your headphones, come along...

00;24;35;18 - 00;24;37;08 Alison So which one do you prefer?

00;24;38;22 - 00;24;40;29 Dave I like this one better, to be honest.

00;24;41;01 - 00;24;54;07 Alison Right now the lyrics are fairly generic and given the prompt we've served it, that makes perfect sense. If we were to elaborate more on what we were asking for, am I right in assuming that the lyrics will become more relevant and stronger as well?

00;24;54;10 - 00;25;01;01 Dave Absolutely. The better you prompt, the better and more relevant it'll be. So here's gritty, intense, hard rap.

00;25;01;04 - 00;25;14;19 AI Song Tune in, CMA dropping' bombs on the regular. Facts so sharp, sharper than the predator. Mic in hand, splitting' truth like a prophet. Expose the lies, real talk, no profit...

Alison I kinda like this one too.

00;25;14;21 - 00;25;26;13 Dave When you think about it from a marketer's perspective, how many hours would this have taken? How many, how much investment in time, effort, people? It's just, it would be crazy.

00;25;26;15 - 00;25;36;02 Alison So we're just getting started, right? When you think about how much the tools have evolved, how many new tools have emerged on the scene, and it's changing daily?

00;25;36;05 - 00;25;51;20 Dave Absolutely. It's it's, and it's not just like we talk about the large language models because that's what everybody tends to focus on. But there are all these other tools that are just absolutely mind blowing. So yeah, it's it's a fun journey to be on like, this is this is exciting and fun.

00;25;51;22 - 00;26;01;29 Alison So as marketers are embracing Gen AI, what skills are becoming more critical and what should marketers keep in mind as they're navigating this rapidly evolving landscape?

00;26;02;02 - 00;26;24;01 Dave Well, you know, really, as much as we were talking about these tools, people are still important. You know, people matter. You still have to have the soft skills to be able to communicate with people and understand. So all those fundamentals that you learned aren't going away, but marketers who use it are going to have a significant advantage to those who don't.

00;26;24;01 - 00;26;44;22 Dave And so, for example, if you said to me, you know what Dave, come up with a creative concept for, for, you know, an ad for the CMA podcast, and I could come up with a complete marketing plan, a complete copywriting. I could write you your landing pages, your copy for all of your, communications, your Twitter, or your X posts, or your LinkedIn posts.

00;26;44;29 - 00;27;05;22 Dave I could generate images for it. I could create a song for it, and I could do all that, probably before lunch. If you're going up against me, you've got to be skilled in this, right? And I am by no means the best at this. I am a learning person who is just trying to use this as much as possible, but you got to know what's there to be able to do it.

00;27;05;22 - 00;27;31;02 Dave So it's it's important for you to, to use these tools and, and be open and curious and be willing to fail. You know, you need to really, you need to to really not get great results and then accept the fact that, okay, that result was bad, but it wasn't because of the machine, it was because I'm not good enough yet at prompting the machine, at entering the information, at giving the resources.

00;27;31;04 - 00;28;00;09 Dave So I always look at it as, how can I get better? Because what I found is, in my experience, the better I get, amazingly, the better the machine seems to get. You know, it's just it's just it's amazing how how advanced it gets, you know, so you can use these tools to help you prepare for meetings. So for example, if you download a transcript of this podcast, you could then say, okay, give me the summary points that Dave said I should watch out about security concerns.

00;28;00;16 - 00;28;26;20 Dave What are enterprise companies doing about those security concerns? How can I, as a small, medium-sized business marketer use these tools? And what should I tell my CEO or CMO, CTO or whatever? What should I tell the C-suite about this tool? And how can I then persuade them to use these tools. So you can even like brainstorm. You can you can just bounce ideas off this off the machine.

00;28;26;22 - 00;28;48;25 Dave And it's really interesting to see the results that you can get. And, you know, I mean, like any intern, they'll have great ideas. And you'll use 1 or 2 of them, but you'll still get two more ideas than you didn't have before. So it's it's really, really important. So you, as you said earlier, being curious, it's 90% of the battle in this case.

00;28;48;25 - 00;28;56;18 Dave So and then, don't just know about it, do it. Actually use the tools. That's that's the most important thing.

00;28;56;23 - 00;29;19;12 Alison Well they also highlighted, and a willingness to fail. Like this is not going to be perfect. This is not going to be like inserted into no matter how good your prompts are, make the request and then just serve up the finished product. It still does need human engagement. It needs human review. Humans will make any output from the tools even stronger, and you have to be willing to fail.

00;29;19;15 - 00;29;38;11 Dave Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And if you're yeah. If you're not, if you're not at the highest level of your profession, if you're a junior marketer or something, you can you can use this to up up-skill, to do what the people above are doing. Ask, you know, ask the people above you for feedback on whatever you're giving. And then take that feedback.

00;29;38;11 - 00;29;59;04 Dave Incorporate it into whatever you're doing, your workflow, your processes. Because I've found AI works really well, like it's a machine. So the more structured data like, like lists you can put in, the more information that kind of has a hierarchy like, you know, headings, subheadings, all that kind of stuff, it will react well to things that are well-structured.

00;29;59;06 - 00;30;17;16 Dave If you're just kind of, write me a pirate shanty, then it comes up with all kinds of stuff, right? But if you were like, okay, write it. And you know, with these, this many verses with this type of information about these things, make sure you hit on this, this and this. It just gets better and better. People aren't going away.

00;30;17;16 - 00;30;27;24 Dave This is just going to make people better, smarter, faster, more skilled. And you know, it's, you go from riding a tricycle to driving a Ferrari. It's, you go a lot faster.

00;30;27;28 - 00;30;53;00 Alison Absolutely. So, Dave, this has been a wonderful conversation. You've given us such great advice and very practical ways that we can start engaging with the tools if we're already engaging, which I hope most of our listeners are, how to build on the early learning that we each have. Now, separate from Gen AI, you have a amazing career. You've built businesses, you've been entrepreneurial.

00;30;53;03 - 00;31;05;29 Alison So to close off our discussion, I'd love to have you share one piece of advice for marketers who are looking to stay ahead in their careers and what they need to do to continue to evolve with the industry.

00;31;06;01 - 00;31;30;23 Dave So the biggest learning I've had, in that side of things, has really come down to how I approach things. And really it's kind of a framework that I've taken to adopt, which is, you know, that doesn't work for me, changed to how do I. So let me give you an example. Twitter, X, is a tool that I never really understood.

00;31;31;00 - 00;31;52;01 Dave You know, it's the noise problem. There's so much stuff there. It's all about politics whatever. And so my thought was, it doesn't work for me. It's not going to ever work for me. Instead, I had to change my mind to how do I use this tool to accomplish what I want? So I went in, I deleted everybody I was following, and I just, so this is a kind of a dual purpose.

00;31;52;01 - 00;32;13;03 Dave I just started following people who are the thought leaders in AI. So Twitter is, now my feed is now all the latest developments in AI, all the amazing things that are happening, changing it to a "how do I". Because whenever I start to think that way, I realize that the problem's with me, not necessarily the platform, not necessarily the tool.

00;32;13;06 - 00;32;22;16 Dave So how do I learn how to do this thing better? And and then that's just really the best piece of advice I can give. So hopefully that's helpful.

00;32;22;16 - 00;32;26;26 Alison I love that reframing. It's great professional advice. It's also great personal advice. Thank you.

00;32;26;26 - 00;32;38;26 Dave Absolutely. No, you're welcome. Thank you very much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. And it's it's been really you know, I'm grateful for everything the CMA does. You guys are amazing. So I'm happy to be able to contribute a little bit.

00;32;38;29 - 00;32;51;17 Alison You're  one of our many amazing members. And I really appreciate all that you give back to the community as well, because we're only as strong as the the level of engaged members that we have. And you definitely are high on that list. So, Dave, thank you for everything.

00;32;51;19 - 00;32;57;12 Dave Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

00;32;57;14 - 00;33;10;02 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with two members of the CMA's Not-For-Profit Council, Allen Davidov, Senior Vice President, Sales Practice & Marketing Leader, Environics Analytics and Kelly Hardy, Vice President, Marketing & Communications, YMCA Canada. They explore the unique opportunities and challenges of leveraging AI in non-profit marketing, discuss strategies for preparing for the AI-driven future, and share valuable advice for marketers looking to embrace this transformative technology.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:08 Announcer Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, KMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:10 - 00:00:46:01 Alison  In today's episode, we're diving into the world of charities and not for profit organizations to discuss how they can leverage the transformative potential of generative AI as the marketing landscape continues to rapidly evolve. Charities and not for profits, can often find themselves facing some pretty unique challenges when it comes to adopting cutting edge technologies like Gen I. With limited resources and a focus on mission driven work.

00:00:46:03 - 00:01:08:07 Alison  How can these organizations harness the power of AI to amplify their impact and drive success? To help us navigate this meaty topic, I'm joined by two members of the CMAs not for profit council, Kelly Harding, as the vice president, marketing communications for YMCA Canada, and Allen Davidoff as senior vice president, sales practice and marketing leader, and Varonis analytics.

00:01:08:09 - 00:01:40:14 Alison  Both Kelly and Allen bring deep marketing and leadership expertise. They've also held senior roles in nonprofits, and their first hand experience makes them perfectly suited to discuss how charities and not for profits can explore and implement new technologies like not. They'll share some of the ways they're doing this, along with some valuable lessons learned throughout our conversation. Today, we'll explore the various ways in which Gen AI can help nonprofits scale their marketing efforts everything from automating mundane tasks to enhancing content creation and volunteer work.

00:01:40:16 - 00:01:51:16 Alison  We'll also discuss the importance of upskilling teams, developing AI policies, and addressing concerns around authenticity and transparency. Welcome, Kelly and Allen. It's really great to have you both here today.

00:01:51:18 - 00:01:52:21 Allen Thank you for having me.

00:01:52:22 - 00:01:53:21 Kelly Thank you.

00:01:53:23 - 00:02:13:14 Alison  Now, I'd like to kick things off with the question. And, Kelly, I'll get you to take the lead on this one. As marketers with experience and not for profits. What role do you see Gen AI playing now? What have been your early experiences in leveraging it? I'd also like to hear what advice you would give to those who might be a little bit reluctant to start using AI.

00:02:13:16 - 00:02:45:14 Kelly So I think the generative AI is going to have a monumental shift on the marketing and communications function in an organization, as well as us as marketers ourselves. Just how quickly this technology has developed and what it's capable of now. I think particularly in charities and nonprofits, you're really going to be able to extend the capacity of your teams in a way that our resources probably would never allow us to, unless you have expertise right at your fingertips.

00:02:45:16 - 00:03:05:16 Kelly It can be a copywriter. It can be a brainstorm or a planner. It can fulfill almost or many of the roles that a creative agency might have just to get you started. It's not at the point where it's replacing any human jobs right now, but it's really going to, I think, enhance and be a companion to us as marketers.

00:03:05:18 - 00:03:30:13 Kelly As you start to dive into the world because it's new and it's also you're adding your information into these large language models is really important to understand your organizational policies around the use of AI and protecting your private, confidential, proprietary business information. I like to use AI, as I said, as my editor. So sometimes my sentence structure clarity isn't there.

00:03:30:14 - 00:04:07:03 Kelly So I still write stuff. Well, say can you just review this for grammar, clarity, sentence structure or make this shorter? I hadn't done anything in generative AI before December, and then I took a course through the Canadian Marketing Association that was led by Karla Congson. That really demystified what generative AI is about. So I think that as many of us are going to be at the early stages of AI, I'd encourage a great place to start is just take a course that helps you understand what it is, the role of it, the limitations, the cautions and the Canadian Marketing Association offer some great courses on that as well.

00:04:07:03 - 00:04:36:14 Kelly So ones like AI for nonprofits and Hands on Efficiency and Impact training, that's led by Emily Baillie, and that's suited for nonprofit professionals of all levels of experience who are looking to expand their skill set and gain insight into how I can be used in nonprofit marketing. Karla, who I mentioned is the CEO and founder of Open Gravity, has been a great resource for me, and she worked with the CMA, available On Demand ten video based module on generative AI for marketers.

00:04:36:14 - 00:04:57:00 Kelly So that's a really great course because it's not just about generative AI, but how you can leverage it in your role as a marketer. They also have AI and the Future of Work in marketing and executive overview, which is also led by Karla. And that's tailored more for executive marketers to really understand the complexities and opportunities for AI driven marketing.

00:04:57:02 - 00:05:19:02 Kelly And you can also engage with Unlock the Power of AI and how I can make you a better marketer. That's left by Dave Burnett and that's tailored for marketing for practitioners with 2 to 5 years of experience looking to expand their skill set and embrace the future of AI enhanced marketing. So I think really the key message is this is going to be a skill upgrade that all of us is going to have to make.

00:05:19:04 - 00:05:31:18 Kelly whether or not you like the idea of AI is going to become part of what we do now. If you haven't sort learned the time is now and the CMA offers great resources to do that.

00:05:31:20 - 00:05:51:12 Alison  Kelly, thanks so much. It's really great for me to hear that the training through the CMA that you took was a key part of your journey, and I really appreciate the shadow. I also know that our listeners are going to definitely find a compelling the idea of gen AI helping you scale you and your team so you can be even more productive and manage very complex and workloads.

00:05:51:12 - 00:06:00:03 Alison  And the ability to multitask with fewer hours in a week is going to be a compelling benefit for all of us. And I'd love to turn it over to you to answer the question as well.

00:06:00:05 - 00:06:25:06 Allen Thank you. And when I look at I just see it as a marketer, I see that as another tool in my toolbox. So looking at from from what my organization is trying to do or trying to achieve, it's looking at what are the different tools at my disposal. And we live in this great age where we have so much rich data and great technology that allows us to actually do things on our own, sometimes without overspending in a lot of different areas.

00:06:25:06 - 00:06:58:08 Allen I kind of look at it as an opportunity to look at the goals that my team has and what I'm trying to achieve, whether it's a campaign, whether it's creative, whether it's summarizing things, putting out more content and seeing where it can kind of help. So I know Kelly spoke to some of the mundane tasks, but looking at and evaluating your own campaigns and looking at the different videos you've put together, there's great uses of AI just to summarize things for you, to help you just bring things down and allow you to really expedite some tasks really quickly to get things moving.

00:06:58:10 - 00:07:23:04 Allen So I see there's great uses of it. No differently than, you know, obviously shameless plug from the data analytics side. It's a great tool on my toolbox that any marketer can have. And look at how you build your own personas and connect with them. AI in the same fashion gives you opportunities to look at how do you upskill and how do you also extend sort of the use or expansion of your team and the volunteers that you use?

00:07:23:06 - 00:07:43:15 Allen So I think AI's definitely an opportunity, but I would ask everyone to kind of start, I think Kelly spoke about some great CMA courses and great resources, but just look at it from the perspective of what am I trying to accomplish? And what can I help me? So getting started and kind of dig into some of that is kind of starting from that standpoint.

00:07:43:17 - 00:08:07:08 Alison  For anyone that is worried about AI replacing their jobs, it's certainly not going to do that. And when we were talking earlier, we all talked about it's not about gen AI replacing our jobs. It's about marketers who are digging in and experimenting and learning and getting upskilled in joining AI that ultimately will replace our jobs. If we decide to, that we can opt out of this new technology.

00:08:07:13 - 00:08:25:16 Alison  And you've both given so many benefits of why we should be open to experimenting and exploring, and that can really help remove some of the mundane tasks that are part of anyone's job, make us more scalable and also help stress test some of our thinking and play the important role of editors. So really great examples to kick off the session.

00:08:25:18 - 00:08:42:06 Alison  Now, with the not for profit and charitable experience that you both bring to the table, I'd love to hear a bit about the unique opportunities that you see for not for profits and charities to leverage. Gen. AI, particularly when they often have smaller budgets and smaller teams.

00:08:42:08 - 00:09:03:09 Kelly I think that, as we've discussed, AI can be a series of AI powered expertise and experts at your fingertips. So and I think a lot of times, and especially charities where you have limited resources, you don't have all the people in your team that, you know, bigger corporations may have. And I think even bigger corporations never have all the skills and expertise they want.

00:09:03:11 - 00:09:28:10 Kelly So generative AI is going to give us opportunities to bring those skills in-house, at a cost that would never be attainable if you actually had to hire each of those or outsource consultants to help you with that. I think that what you'll have to do is figure out what type of expertise you want and how to work with, you know, the AI model that you're going to work with to leverage that properly.

00:09:28:10 - 00:09:52:10 Kelly But right now it can help with copywriting. It can help with data analysis. So if, you know, sometimes we'll just do surveys to try to understand how people are thinking about things or reacting to things. The quickness, which means they can analyze verbatim comments. And we know how expensive quality surveys can be because of that human effort required to analyze the verbatim comments.

00:09:52:10 - 00:10:11:22 Kelly Well, now that's accessible to most of us to be able to do that. So I think that's what's really exciting is not about especially at the YMCA right now. It's not about replacing their jobs, but helping us. And it's not about making us work. Longer hours is about making better use of the hours that we have and just listening to expertise.

00:10:11:22 - 00:10:14:22 Kelly We need to have access to before.

00:10:15:00 - 00:10:22:06 Alison  Making better use of the hours we have, is such a great way to sum it up. Kelly, thank you so much. Now I'll I'd love you to share your thoughts.

00:10:22:08 - 00:10:46:11 Allen Yeah. So I think added to what sort of Kelly has said there's an opportunity to upskill yourself. And I know this has been mentioned in terms of what does my team need to sort of farm and what's the best plan to get them there, and where do they get the resources? So using AI as a search and a planning tool is a great resource for a lot of charities, especially medium and small ones that don't have a lot of opportunities.

00:10:46:13 - 00:11:13:19 Allen Or this, the background in terms of H.R. And why not? So just looking at what are the new marketing skills that are out there, can I help you search those function like those skill sets, and put a plan together to prompt you to go and read this article or, you know, register for this class. So there's a great opportunity to use it as a development tool for a lot of different marketing teams on not for profits as well as, you know, summarizing and using it as a creative resource.

00:11:13:19 - 00:11:34:08 Allen So if you have some ideas and I know we all, you know, get behind a whiteboard and throw ideas together and brainstorm with our team. So it's another opportunity to use the tool to say, you know, here's some ideas. Put them all together, search what's out there, and then come back with, you know, more refined ideas that you then as a team can take a little bit further.

00:11:34:10 - 00:11:52:10 Allen So again, it's a great searching tool. And a great development tool that a lot of groups, a lot of marketing teams can utilize. And I've seen it done and we are using it on Environics in terms of from those standpoints as well, it can keep you on task and it can really help you search for different things that you're looking for and put it all together.

00:11:52:12 - 00:12:19:14 Alison  That's great. Now you both have given our listeners lots of reasons to want to experiment and try. And for those that have already embraced gen AI to continue their learning and experimentation, we all know that not for profits typically are not early adopters of new technologies. So for our listeners that are coming from the charitable and not for profit space, what would you recommend they do to prepare for the significant changes that gen AI is bringing?

00:12:19:20 - 00:12:22:11 Alison  And I want to why don't you kick off this answer?

00:12:22:13 - 00:12:47:23 Allen I would say that a lot of that are in the not for profit space, are not too far behind. there was a recent stats can report that came out that said 1 in 10 companies in Canada, corporate companies or all companies in Canada intend to actually implement AI in this next year. And in terms of Canada and the global sort of environment, where 29th out of 31 that's sort of implemented currently.

00:12:48:01 - 00:13:05:19 Allen So the not for profit space, I would say, is not too far behind. Everybody's trying to get a sense of what is it, how can it be used, and how could this benefit my organization? How can this benefit me as a marketer in my team? So what I would say is there's it's never too late to jump in.

00:13:05:20 - 00:13:23:19 Allen I think it's great to spend some time and find some time, as we all do, as as marketing leaders, to kind of see what's out there and talk to people and look at use cases and again, bring it back to what my team or my organization trying to achieve. And how could this help benefit us and expedite things?

00:13:23:23 - 00:13:44:10 Allen So from mundane tasks all the way to upskilling, I think not for profits, there are different use cases that they can kind of fitted into, but it's never too late to try anything, right? Just like when I think about social media and, and when that came on board, a lot of people were trying it and some people were more hesitant and eventually got on board.

00:13:44:10 - 00:14:05:02 Allen But it was never too late. It's just a matter of what's the right fit for your organization and what's the right use case for your organization. And also from a policy perspective, like being more aware of things that are important from privacy and whatnot. So, I think it's never too late, I guess. And at the same time, it's just you got to jump in to try.

00:14:05:02 - 00:14:07:14 Allen You got to play and figure it out.

00:14:07:16 - 00:14:22:23 Alison  And thinking of it more as play instead of this overwhelming, intimidating new thing is a great mindset to bring into it as well. Now, Kelly, being in the not for profit space with your current role would be great to hear what else you would add to Alan's great advice.

00:14:23:01 - 00:14:45:17 Kelly Yes, and I think as charities, we often don't have the resources to take risks in the early stages of technology where we know there is that refinement. And, you know, the version one of something, if you look at, you know, ChatGPT when it was released, not that there's a lot of different between how it was implemented, but some of the technologies, we just can't use our resources to take risks on them.

00:14:45:19 - 00:15:04:09 Kelly With AI, we know that we're going to be adopting it don't always be expert as any time new technology comes. So if you look at the evolution of digital marketing, we don't need to have experts, in-house SEO experts, digital marketing, meta experts. We don't need to have them in-house because we know that there will be experts there to help us.

00:15:04:09 - 00:15:26:09 Kelly So I always want to ease everybody's mind to know the experts and people who do this for a living. We'll be able to help us understand the use cases for our charities and nonprofits, and who knows where this is going to go in the future, because we're at a certain place in time right now. But maybe our service delivery is going to be able to be delivered by AI in the future.

00:15:26:09 - 00:15:54:00 Kelly We're not there yet, but I think one of the things that charities and nonprofits should be thinking of in the adoption of this technology is understanding where it's going, and it's really hard to keep on top of it sometimes because things change so fast. So one thing we've done at YMCA Canada, because there are risks and there's a lot of sometimes what's going to happen when these AI's, if they ever get that independent general intelligence where they can actually make decisions independently of humans.

00:15:54:00 - 00:16:24:17 Kelly And that's scary scenario. We are nowhere near that right now, but understanding the potential pitfalls of that technology. So sometimes if you don't have that expertise in-house, that might be a skill you look to add to your board of directors. We've also encouraged learning of our staff to keep up with this. So we actually at Y Canada had a book club where we read a book called The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman, and he really outlines and it's not going to be necessary.

00:16:24:18 - 00:16:49:04 Kelly It's a technical book that's not necessarily about charities and nonprofits, but just more on the state of AI and the threats to the world and how you can mitigate them. So having discussions around things like that, how are those threats and risks applicable to your organizations? Do you have policies? These policies, whatever you put in place today, you probably going to have to rethink it six months from now as the technology and new capabilities become available.

00:16:49:08 - 00:17:09:07 Kelly So I think that's one thing, is just learning about the risks and uses of it. You don't necessarily have to be doing them, but having that general sense of the impact AI is going to have on your organization, and if you don't have that capacity in-house right now, there's people out there that can help us with that.

00:17:09:09 - 00:17:26:07 Alison  Kelly, thanks so much. That's great value to our listeners with all of the great resources. And I love the book club idea as well. Now, Alan, do you have any additional advice for any marketers who might be listening today? And they're still a little bit overwhelmed or panicked or just unsure of where to begin exploring gen AI?

00:17:26:08 - 00:17:51:13 Allen Right. So I think Kelly's given some great advice and some great resources. But just as an executive, I think as a marketing leader, you kind of just have to jump right in and start playing and understanding the tool. I e we have a committee that actually put together that kind of looks at different use cases and talks to the organization and comes to different town halls with ideas and showcases it and allows the teams then to kind of take it away and kind of play with it a little bit.

00:17:51:15 - 00:18:20:19 Allen So I think we all kind of have to jump right in and and try it out and see what the limitations are and, and see how it could fit for your organization. And I think without doing that yourself, it's hard for you to direct your team to actually different use cases as well. So I think as leaders, it's upon us to try these things, to read up on them and get familiar with them in order to kind of help drive that through an organization or your own team.

00:18:20:21 - 00:18:40:05 Allen So I think the easiest thing is dive right in, test it yourself, see how it works, try it for use case. If you know you join a podcast like we have today and just get the show notes and see how we could summarize it for you. So simple. Something simple as a task like that can start to showcase what are those opportunities for you?

00:18:40:09 - 00:19:02:23 Allen If you have to write something and, you know, put some bullets together on, here's a blog post that I'm thinking about. You know, ask gen AI if you can add some additional thoughts or what what the gaps are in your thinking. See what it comes back with. So keep on just testing little ideas and little things with it and see how we can help you continuously progress and just read a lot of information on it.

00:19:02:23 - 00:19:30:01 Allen I spend a lot of time on podcasts and reading different articles on it, and listening to different people outside of just courses, just to see how different organizations sort of have adopted it or used it in different instances to say, can I use that little nugget and bring it back to my organization? Can I test it myself? So I would just say, start with jumping in yourself, get familiar with it, and then just get your team playing with it as well and coming back with ideas to the table every single time.

00:19:30:01 - 00:19:44:22 Allen So whether you put a committee together and that's, you know, an organization committee or you do it with your own team and just bring back nuances every week and ideas and nuggets, I think that's the right way to start. And that's the best way to kind of learn yourself.

00:19:45:00 - 00:20:10:05 Alison  Many thanks. And with all the great resources that you and Kelly are both sharing, what we'll do to make it easy for our listeners is add links to the different resources that have been highlighted and the names of the books as well. So now there are lots of amazing benefits and lots of compelling reasons why marketers and not for profits, and charities and marketers in any industry really need to embrace and understand and start working with Genii.

00:20:10:07 - 00:20:27:09 Alison  It's far from perfect. There are always risks and watch out for any new technology. So what are some of the key lessons learned that both of you have experienced or watch out for, not for profits that you would give as they start to begin to leverage on Kelly?

00:20:27:13 - 00:20:48:18 Kelly I think for, biggest thing right now is understanding what happens to the information that you're putting in to the tool that you're using. There's some ways that those are private and that that information isn't shared into a larger database of information, but some of them aren't. It becomes part of that learning and accessible to other people eventually who would be using it.

00:20:48:18 - 00:21:12:06 Kelly So I think that's the number one thing. And if you're not sure there's, you know, resources on the web that you can find, I have found that the paid version of tools are often smarter than the non-paid version. So that's one thing that we've been we're at our office where we use Microsoft 365 platforms of the Copilot integrations.

00:21:12:06 - 00:21:31:14 Kelly In the paid version, we've gotten subscriptions for all our staff because that actually does offer a different level of privacy. My my general rule of thumb is if I wouldn't put it on our public website, I'm not going to put it into AI because I just assume anything going into AI is going to be public information at some point in time.

00:21:31:16 - 00:22:02:23 Kelly Then I think also understanding just the impact of AI generated content on how your brand is represented. So, you know, are you at a place where you're comfortable using AI generated images, which as charities sometimes loses that authenticity that's so important to the work that we do and the storytelling that we do. But sometimes, though, depending on the needs that your organization addresses, it may not be appropriate to take photos of that in AI.

00:22:02:23 - 00:22:24:09 Kelly May actually be able to help you tell your story in a different way. So I think really just understanding, the comfort level with AI generated content, I think eventually us as a society will become more accepting of it. I think right now there's some thoughts like, oh, that's not a center to us. We shouldn't be using it in our public facing materials.

00:22:24:11 - 00:22:35:13 Alison  that's such a smart rule of thumb that you've given us as well. If you wouldn't put it on your public website, then you probably shouldn't be feeding it into ChatGPT either. So, Alan, what would you add?

00:22:35:15 - 00:22:54:01 Allen I would definitely highlights, and reinforce the privacy aspect. So putting things in there that are private and, you know, could be harmful, I think is definitely something that you should stay away from and put some policies around it and give it some thought. I think the other added things is it's not always correct. It's not always right.

00:22:54:03 - 00:23:16:21 Allen The answers that you get back are not always perfect. So it's that's something that we all got. So we used to, you know, putting in a search function in Google, you'll get answers and you think it's always right. But it actually is not always correct. So being very careful about what you put in there and what you get back and evaluating what you get back and having that human element and and reinforcement I think is necessary for us.

00:23:16:21 - 00:23:34:04 Allen But it's coming to it from that mindset that it's an ad, it's a feature that you can help move you along in a process. But it's not always perfect. So it's, you know, mathematic skills might be great, but some of it's formulas it will offer how it speaks about certain things are off or it's English might be a little bit off.

00:23:34:06 - 00:24:01:17 Allen So having coming into it with that mindset is it's not perfect and you really got to be aware of those things. So Kelly talked about being authentic. So understanding that it might not capture your voice in the perfect way and then not have perfect grammar is something to definitely be aware of as a marketer, as a writer, as someone who's putting something together, a blog post or looking at a campaign and, and copy, you always should just be aware of that.

00:24:01:17 - 00:24:08:11 Allen So again, it's a great tool to help you get started and move you along. But it's not the final solution to something.

00:24:08:13 - 00:24:29:10 Alison  That's so true, but only is it not perfect. Sometimes it's out and out wrong. We can't get lazy about it. We absolutely need to take the time and apply the due diligence to make sure that it's accurate and factual, and also reflective of your personal tone and values and voice and your brand's, values and voice as well.

00:24:29:12 - 00:24:47:21 Allen It is always learning, and the beauty of AI, and we've been talking about this. It's always learning as you put more things in there as others do as well. So it gets to a better spot. But you're absolutely right. The the fact that it that you need that sort of human element always overseeing it kind of speaks to it'll never replace us.

00:24:47:21 - 00:24:53:01 Allen It needs us to keep on. And it should be seen as a tool, not a replacement.

00:24:53:03 - 00:25:18:08 Alison  Absolutely. Now, we've talked a lot about gen AI, and it's certainly, however, the biggest, most dominant trend in our profession today. But it's not the only trend. So our profession is absolutely continuing to evolve at warp speed. And we all have very, very busy day jobs. So I'd love you both to share, some tips for what you do to stay current with the latest trends.

00:25:18:10 - 00:25:38:15 Kelly Kelly Jones As you said, the whole industry evolves rapidly, and a lot of that has to do with the marketing technology that we use and where I think as a charity, where you might actually see the first impact of AI if you're not using it personally, is that the tools and systems that you use are now starting to integrate AI into their platforms and solutions.

00:25:38:15 - 00:26:08:06 Kelly So we've seen that with Adobe. We see that with things like Canva, which I know probably a lot of charities are using. So what I try to do is understand what they're offering now, through AI enhancements with their platform. And AI is the hot topic right now. So there are plenty of webinars that are offered by the vendors that you're working with that I'd encourage you to actually attend those because those are the tools that you're using, and they're just there to help you use their tools better, more efficient, and do more with them.

00:26:08:07 - 00:26:11:17 Alison  Thanks, Kelly. That's terrific advice. Ellen, what would you add?

00:26:11:19 - 00:26:32:05 Allen I would say that just listening to different podcasts and marketers and what's out there when going to networking events and talking to people, listening and sort of asking questions about what they're doing and how, what they're using. I use those moments and sort of reading up, you know, in different tech sections, at different newspapers about what's coming up in different campaigns.

00:26:32:10 - 00:26:53:10 Allen I use those opportunities and those sort of tools to help me upskill and sort of just stay on top of different things. So there's great podcasts such as this one to talk about the different tools and tech that's coming up in different practices. There is great articles and blogs that are being posted on LinkedIn and other sources that will allow marketers just to stay what's on top.

00:26:53:10 - 00:27:13:11 Allen And then Kelly, throughout the great idea and the webinar, I think there's so many great webinars being done by different vendors about all these different things. And that's something all those things that I know that I spend time reviewing, whether I wake up and I go for a run or I'm sitting on a trainer on a bike or whatever I'm doing, I think on the weekends, just reading up on all these things.

00:27:13:11 - 00:27:30:08 Allen I think as a marketer, it's a great opportunity for us to sort of just stay on top of these trends. But there's a lot of great people talking about a lot of great things. So we're just asking more questions and being more curious, I think is really behind it all. And how do we stay current and up to date?

00:27:30:10 - 00:27:51:18 Alison  I have a similar approach to you all on, a lot of podcasts accompany me on my runs and help distract me from the actual sweating and the hard work run. So multitasking on a different level. So you both have outstanding careers. Such an amazing experience, and I'd love to close off our discussion today by having each of you share one piece of advice for.

00:27:51:18 - 00:28:01:23 Alison  Or it can be for not for profit markers. It can just be for any marketers who are looking to embrace gen AI and drive success in their organizations.

00:28:02:01 - 00:28:24:05 Kelly So I think I'd like to give my advice to the people who haven't started yet, because I think there's this scariness aspect to it, like in this panel, like, oh, everybody's uses it. I'm not, I assure you, you're not the only one who has not started using it with these technologies is you've actually been designed in a different way than a lot of technologies, in that they're designed to be used based on just natural conversational language.

00:28:24:05 - 00:28:47:02 Kelly So there's actually not a big learning curve to get started with it. And as you basically have conversations with the machine, they'll start to ask you questions to help refine the information that you're getting out of it. So I think the one advice is if you haven't started, just pick a tool chat. The free version is a great one, and you don't even have to be a work related thing.

00:28:47:02 - 00:29:09:14 Kelly Ask it to help you plan a seven day vacation to Europe. And if you want to hit this end. And I think what really brought me into I was once you start to see the quality of the information and answers in the language, that starts to come back, because it's nothing like anything we've ever used before, and you'll see that it's really not a difficult technology to adopt.

00:29:09:14 - 00:29:33:18 Kelly When you hear that the next version of this is out it, it doesn't impact how you input into it. It's getting smarter on how to respond to what we're inputting into it. So as we've said, is to just play. And then as you get a little more comfortable, pick a task. So maybe you do want to generate some copy for a social media post, but the more specific you can be in your ask, the better.

00:29:33:18 - 00:29:47:21 Kelly So like the tone of voice, the length, what action you might want to drive, who it's for, the more information you can give it around the specific outputs you're looking for, the better results you're going to get. But just start playing in there.

00:29:47:23 - 00:30:05:19 Alison  I love the start playing and by the way, plan a wonderful vacation in here if there's a very aspirational element to that. So we have any listeners that are still a little bit reluctant. You've given them, a great added incentive to get in and start playing. So, Allen, how would you wrap things up?

00:30:05:21 - 00:30:31:02 Allen Stay curious. I think as marketers, we're probably entering or I've heard we're entering into the golden age of marketing, where we have all this rich data, where we have all this great technology and all these things at our disposal that are not overly expensive, that are giving us the opportunity to do things better, to reach our customers, to reach our donors, to reach people that we didn't think we could or understand them as well as we thought.

00:30:31:04 - 00:30:53:02 Allen But really, it all starts with curiosity. And as a marketer, being curious about how you can do things better, how you can improve things can really lead to testing new things. Like, I like getting into data, like getting into different platforms that can deliver a better measurable result and measuring results. So I think it's just a matter of staying curious.

00:30:53:02 - 00:31:11:02 Allen You know, we've talked about play a lot over this podcast and just playing a little bit with the tools to understand how are they relevant to your organization? What are some of the pitfalls? What are the some of the do's and don'ts? And start small and expand a little bit. And then also talk to your network about how they are using this tool.

00:31:11:02 - 00:31:28:14 Allen I think we all as markers have great networks. We're all part of councils and committees. Like, I love my time on the NFP Committee on the CMA and some others that different boards and committees that I'm on. But I'm always asking questions of others, whether it's Kelly or other members, to say, how are you using this tool?

00:31:28:14 - 00:31:54:15 Allen Have you seen this tool? And that's part of the great part about joining the council on the CMA is like, you have that opportunity to discuss and also share and learn. So there's a lot of great content out there. And I think as a marketer, I think I would just say be curious about it, read it and just try to go seek it every day to improve the work that you're doing, improve the team that you're working on, and sort of grow it and gather and kind of move forward and and get to your goals.

00:31:54:15 - 00:32:07:07 Allen Because we all have lofty goals, our revenue goals or our donor goals or, you know, fundraising goals. So it's just there's a lot of great tools out there. And as a marketer, I think we have the opportunity to do some really great things.

00:32:07:09 - 00:32:30:02 Alison  That is very well said. Curiosity for any marketer at any stage in our career is absolutely a mission critical skill. I also like you're talking about we're entering the golden age of marketing. This is a profession that I love. I know both of you love it as well. It is not an easy profession. It's demanding, it's challenging, it's constantly evolving, and there's so much possibility in it.

00:32:30:02 - 00:32:56:15 Alison  And I truly do believe that with things like Gen, AI and just all of the change we're currently going through, it really is setting us up for a truly golden age of marketing. And I appreciate you ending the this wonderful conversation on that note, Alan. I know you're both incredibly busy, and I really appreciate the time you've taken today to share your experiences and your wisdom and great advice with all of our listeners.

00:32:56:17 - 00:32:57:07 Allen Thanks for hanging.

00:32:57:11 - 00:33:02:11 Kelly Out. Thanks for having us.

00:33:02:13 - 00:33:15:03 Announcer Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the The CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

References:

Financial Post: https://financialpost.com/technology/can-ai-solve-canada-productivity-crisis 

Stats Can Report on Business Conditions: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/240226/dq240226a-eng.htm 

Ipsos Report: https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Canadians-Least-Likely-AI-Make-Lives-Better 

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, hosts a discussion with two members of the CMA's B2B Council, Mary-Jane Owen, Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and Eric Tang, Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Together, Mary-Jane and Eric redefine what brand-building means in 2024, explore effective and efficient brand-building strategies, and explore the challenges B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:21 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:22 - 00:00:56:16 Alison In today's episode, we're diving deep into the realm of B2B marketing, focusing on the critical roles that brand building and digital marketing play in generating leads and ultimately in  driving sales. Joining me today are two exceptional guests and also members of our CMA's B2B Council. They both bring a wealth of experience and diverse perspectives. So I'm joined by Mary-Jane Owen, who is the Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and is renowned for her data-driven approach to digital marketing, as well as her ability to consistently deliver impressive ROI for her clients.

00:00:56:18 - 00:01:28:07 Alison Eric Tang also joins me, and he is the Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Eric is known for his expertise in crafting compelling brand narratives and strategies that really resonate with B2B audiences. Together, Mary Jane and Eric will help us redefine what brand building means in 2024. They're also going to share examples of creative and cost effective brand building tactics, and explore the challenges that B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:52:19 Alison We're also discussing how to reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey, and to leverage the power of both brand building and demand generation to drive sustained business growth. So whether you're a seasoned B2B marketer or just starting your career, this episode is absolutely going to be jam packed with valuable insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own organization.

00:01:52:21 - 00:02:06:21 Alison And while we're focusing on B2B, it will also have a lot of really valuable insights for marketers in the consumer and other fields as well. So on that note, I would love to welcome Mary-Jane and Eric to our episode today. 

Mary-Jane Thank you Alison.

00:02:06:23 - 00:02:08:08 Eric Thank you so much.

00:02:08:10 - 00:02:20:06 Alison Mary-Jane and Eric. I'm going to kick off by asking you both, what is your definition of brand building and digital marketing when it comes in the context of B2B? Mary-Jane, why don't you kick things off?

00:02:20:08 - 00:02:46:07 Mary-Jane Well, I have to say that when it comes to the B2B space, brand building hasn't really been very well understood and there's often been a real reluctance to invest in those longer term marketing initiatives and a focus rather on like diverting marketing budget to the more short term lead generation type activities where the ROI was much more immediate.

00:02:46:09 - 00:03:20:23 Eric I want to build on what Mary-Jane was just saying, and by just looking at the notion of brand building, you know, traditionally, you know, brand building is often equates to storytelling. And if we just use that lens, then yes, Mary-Jane is absolutely right, it's really hard to demonstrate quantitatively. How do you measure the impact of storytelling? But if you broaden the lens of brand building to other aspects, then it starts getting interesting and much more measurable, which I'm sure today we'll talk more about.

00:03:21:01 - 00:03:36:13 Alison Thank you very much. I want to ask a follow up question on that. You both mentioned that historically, it's been a harder sell to B2B to invest in brand building. Are you starting to see that change, and what do you think some of the key drivers behind that are?

00:03:36:15 - 00:04:02:15 Eric To what I was trying to say earlier, if you look at brand building, strictly storytelling, then yes, there has been, you know, even just past few months, every conference I attended, every conversation I had, people were still having this conversation or struggle between putting money in HN , which is short term, which is important, especially in this economy, versus, you know, staying on top of people's mind and mindshare.

00:04:02:17 - 00:04:33:13 Eric However, if you look at brand building as a combination of storytelling, which is what you're saying to people and how you show up, and then the experience that your products and services are delivering to people and the functional, emotional and high values that you're delivering. Plus how you do, how you're actually behaving as a company, which, you know, we call it the business actions.

00:04:33:15 - 00:04:59:16 Eric Then all of a sudden a lot of these things are very much measurable, especially, you know, for instance, your customer feedback as a result of the product or service you deliver, the piece of content and the relevance, you know, that as a result of your leadership. And your business action as a result, you know, and the feedback that all your stakeholders are giving you. All these are constantly being measured.

00:04:59:21 - 00:05:14:10 Eric So it doesn't matter whether you are an SMB or whether you're a multinational company, you know, that formula applies. And if people start thinking about brand building in that context, then we start changing the conversation.

00:05:14:12 - 00:05:43:12 Mary-Jane And I think the other aspect is to understand that the landscape is dynamic and changing. And in fact, we have to continually be adapting in terms of our demand generation and brand building activities. And so, for instance, I mean, just in the last little while, we've seen the introduction of AI. So a whole new set of tools that we need to figure out how we employ these tools to be better marketers.

00:05:43:14 - 00:05:51:07 Mary-Jane Also, with regards to the economy, you know, we, depending on your industry, we could be entering a phase of low growth

00:05:51:07 - 00:05:51:23 Mary-Jane Or even no growth.

00:05:51:23 - 00:06:05:11 Mary-Jane So the landscape is shifting. So to be able to maintain our competitiveness, we really need to be doing a better job of putting the human into the equation in the marketing that we do.

00:06:05:13 - 00:06:34:19 Eric That's so important, Mary-Jane. And, you know, if you also think about the context of B2B marketing in general, the timeline often, that sales cycle, that timeline is sometimes much longer than what, you know, people experience in the B2C world. So all of a sudden, your customer journey is quite lengthy. You know, sometimes it could be up to, you know, 18 months or longer depends on depends on your category and depends on what you're trying to promote,

00:06:34:19 - 00:07:12:01 Eric right? So what Mary-Jane just said in terms of that human aspect and the stakeholders, what they are encountering during, let's just say that 18 months, the external environment changes all the time. Their concerns and their response to what is happening in the environment they're operating in changes all the time. So we need to be nimble about, you know, how we use a blend of the storytelling, the experience, the demand gen to be, you know, on top, to stay top of mind and consistently being relevant to these stakeholders.

00:07:12:03 - 00:07:36:13 Mary-Jane Going a little bit deeper with that, like one of the challenges with B2B, there isn't a single decision maker. You've got sometimes it's a committee. You've got a number of different people that are going to be involved in making a decision, and they're all coming at the opportunity, your proposition, your product or service from a different lens, from a different standpoint.

00:07:36:13 - 00:08:07:06 Mary-Jane They have different concerns, and they have different needs. And I mean, conceptually, we understand when we're building out these lead generation finals, but today it's not even a funnel, but where we really need to be better and and take the time to be more competitive is understanding the emotional element. Understand the underpinning needs, the human, the human that's behind that screen, that's evaluating your product.

00:08:07:06 - 00:08:33:14 Mary-Jane And that will allow us to solve the problem of low conversions that a lot of people, a lot of businesses are experiencing, low conversions from their, demand generation activity. And one of the levers to access better performance out of that is taking the time to really get to know each one of those decision makers, each one of those stakeholders in a really human, personal way.

00:08:33:16 - 00:09:06:16 Eric I have a real life example I can share that in a really reflects what Mary-Jane was saying. We have worked with a global predictive analytics company for a long time. And predictive analytics, you know, is something that's really conceptual. And in this case, this particular client works a lot with financial institutions. And as Mary-Jane mentioned, you know, the dawn of AI, not dawn, but the evolution of predictive analytics, all of a sudden, it's not just a conversation between data scientists.

00:09:06:18 - 00:09:54:01 Eric It's becomes a conversation between risk managers, data scientists, marketing, legal, etc., etc. because they all bring different concerns to the table and every decision made for choosing this technology, it's definitely this committee at at the core, and they all bring different aspects. So when we were talking to this client with a guiding, this client, you know, all of a sudden we're looking at the B to C to B model, meaning okay, at the end, your financial institution is making your client, the financial institution is making decisions based on your technology and powered by your technology that would impact their retail clients, their retail customers.

00:09:54:03 - 00:10:31:10 Eric You know, it could be someone who's seeking a loan. It could be someone who is managing debt, whatever that might be. And you can imagine, you know, the rich conversations in terms of targeting, legal, targeting risk managers, targeting IT, targeting marketing, all of these become, you know, part of the storytelling, part of experience. And when an expert like Mary-Jane comes, you know, and talk about lead gen she is targeting these same audience like I am but with different tools and different techniques.

00:10:31:12 - 00:10:51:19 Eric And still, you know, we are together joining hands building, you know, creating this optimum environment so that by the time Mary-Jane does her targeting, these people would be receptive to whatever information and propositions that this demand gen journey is, is trying to achieve.

00:10:51:21 - 00:11:20:18 Alison So you've both talked a lot about how it's not a quick decision. It's not an individual decision. There are a lot of decision makers with very different backgrounds required to ultimately make the sale. There's also a lot of influence around it. And then one of the other things that you've both touched on is the human element. And certainly we as a profession have talked a lot about B2B and B2C, and the reality that you're both highlighting is, it's all human to human, and that's such an important part of doing this well.

00:11:20:19 - 00:11:30:22 Alison So why do you think B2B brands often struggle to determine what the right mix between brand building and digital marketing investments are?

00:11:31:00 - 00:11:55:04 Mary-Jane So one of the challenges is that, like it's not clear that brand building delivers an ROI in the short term or even in near-term, right? And for B2B companies, and we work a lot with like small to medium-sized companies, they just have not understood the value of investing in brand building.

00:11:55:06 - 00:12:22:12 Mary-Jane They've got limited budgets and they're very skewed towards where shorter term priorities lead generation. In fact, a lot of them would consider brand building is kind of unnecessarily fluff, you know, not worth spending money on as like a smaller business. And part of the challenge is that, like the B2B marketing lens is worn by people who've never worked in advertising or in marketing outside of their industry.

00:12:22:14 - 00:12:53:10 Mary-Jane So they have neither the training or the education to be able to have access to kind of the fundamentals of brand building. They don't speak the language. But then additionally, the B2B value proposition has always focused on, you know, rational factors, rational justifications, the idea that decision makers would not be influenced by emotion, that it has to be a purely rational argument,

00:12:53:12 - 00:13:18:20 Mary-Jane ou know, for the for the product or service. And in fact, research is showing that that is not true. We know it's not true for B2C and it's not true for B2B either. In fact, there was some research that was done by Wunderman Thompson, and they showed that emotional factors are a are as much a factor in decision making for B2B as too B2C.

00:13:18:21 - 00:13:50:03 Mary-Jane And in fact, the perception of your brand drives 93% of your market share, right? And in the buying decisions, when they took a look at the factors, two thirds of the decisions were hinged on an emotional connection and only one third, by a rational connection? So everywhere we're seeing mounting evidence that brand building is an inspiring emotion, is much more effective than simply delivering

00:13:50:03 - 00:13:52:19 Mary-Jane rational benefits alone.

00:13:52:21 - 00:14:16:07 Eric Mary-Jane, I couldn't have said it better. And I also want to add, you know, build on what you just said, I heartedly, wholeheartedly agree, you know, with with that perspective. And I think what you just shared applies also to larger companies. And there's an other aspect that we haven't touched on, and that is sometimes the business strategy, the brand strategy and the structure of the company don't align.

00:14:16:09 - 00:14:37:12 Eric What I mean by that is we have, you know, the good fortune, you know, this year in the B2B Council to interact with the creative counsel within CMA. And so, you know, one of the team members is from Telus and she is head of brand. And she so you can tell Telus understands brand, invests in brand, has someone that owns it.

00:14:37:13 - 00:15:04:20 Eric So that's that's a very clear alignment versus some of the clients that I've worked with. One one client may put brand under marketing. Another client may put brand under communications. And sometimes you know it's quote unquote shared responsibilities. And so that is what I mean by the structure and the strategy alignment. You know, if that's not in place, then very often, you know, different teams will look at each other.

00:15:04:21 - 00:15:33:00 Eric Who's owning brand? But the truth is, you know, if we accept the concept of storytelling, product, service, experience and business actions are all part of ingredients. It's part of the formula for building brand. Then, yes, you know, it is a shared responsibility. It needs to be clearly defined and you need a leader to drive all that to make sure every aspect of this is consistent.

00:15:33:02 - 00:15:39:01 Eric So that is something I don't see on a regular basis. When it happens is magical.

00:15:39:03 - 00:16:00:20 Alison It's so great to have that actual research quantifying the important role that emotions play in B2B. Marketing decisions and business decisions as well. So now I'd love to hear from both of you, how can B2B marketers reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey?

00:16:00:22 - 00:16:21:22 Eric Sure. I think in terms of, you know, Mary-Jane already mentioned the traditional idea of funnel is very linear. And I just came back from some training programs, and one of my colleagues just said, well, the funnel is now become a pancake. Everything is squashed. And, you know, all the touchpoints are, you know, happening at the same time.

00:16:21:23 - 00:16:55:21 Eric And so if you're looking at the marketing funnel in the traditional sense, you're not going to be, you know, staying relevant, you know, at all moments in time. And also in terms of reimagining the funnel, it's very much in concert with what is happening to your industry. So I'll give you an example, just by way of observation. If you look at the current, you know, leading Gen AI plays, you have open AI that, you know, obviously as represented by ChatGPT, you have Gemini.

00:16:55:21 - 00:17:18:12 Eric You know, that is you know, Google's, you know, value proposition. And then you have Anthropic and risk solutions, and Claude. Those are just three examples, three well-known examples. And their environment when it comes to, you know, their marketing funnel, their biggest number one issue is trust. And so you can't just say, oh, do it. Address trust at the beginning or at the later end of the journey.

00:17:18:12 - 00:17:43:15 Eric It's throughout that journey and their brand building, you know, they're not looking at, oh, how many promotional videos I should do. How many you know content pieces I should do. One of you know, people would not associate that immediately, but one of their brand building key components is the demonstration of the governance. And normally people go how was governance navigating the brand world.

00:17:43:17 - 00:18:09:09 Eric But in this scenario it very much is. And they are overtly talking about how their governance and their governing bodies can help build trust. You know, with the enterprise customers, they're trying to attract, not just, you know, the general public users, because if they're talking to banks, if they're talking to hospitals, if they're talking to public sector, they actually need, you know, to demonstrate that trust.

00:18:09:14 - 00:18:38:06 Eric And not to mention, you know, trying to balance between being regulated and staying in front of regulators to demonstrate that, no , we got this, we are doing this, and we're moving at a speed much faster than any government bodies can. So that's just another example of showing how in the fast paced, I'm using this extreme example, because extreme examples often can demonstrate why the traditional model, you know, needs to be reimagined.

00:18:38:07 - 00:19:04:16 Eric And so if you're going to be a new entrant, you know, a quote unquote SMB or startup trying to, you know, seek funding, trying to get heard in the shadow of ChatGPT, Gemini and Cloud. What are you going to do? You know that that whole traditional funnel just doesn't seem to apply anymore. So that's just, you know, one example of how I see things are evolving at warp speed.

00:19:04:18 - 00:19:29:06 Mary-Jane I'd like to add to what Eric just said, and I'm going to shift a little bit. So taking what he said, the other point that I really want to come back to is this idea that the funnel is no longer a funnel, it's flattened. And for B2B, it's so instinctive for them to want to move towards a close.

00:19:29:11 - 00:20:20:20 Mary-Jane Like every touchpoint is moving towards a close. And that's no longer relevant today to be effective, and re-looking at this buyer journey. Right? It's way less selling and way more relating. Right? Rather than building towards a close at each time, at each touchpoint, rather thinking in terms of a service role, in the service of helping that user on your website get what they need at that step, right, rather than moving towards the close, asking permission in terms of the conversation, so that the person at the other end, that buyer feels heard and they feel that they got what they needed out of the react, out of the interaction.

00:20:20:22 - 00:20:30:14 Mary-Jane And that is a really different mindset. And what you typically find built into these demand generation initiatives.

00:20:30:16 - 00:20:56:02 Eric Yeah. And if I can just add one more thing and absolutely agree, Mary-Jane, and I just don't want our, our audience to think, oh, brand building is this giant investment. And iajust giant endeavour. It's giant in the sense of you absolutely need to take the time to think about it and, you know, build on what Mary-Jane is saying, you know, how do you change the mindset from, you know, funnel to pancake?

00:20:56:08 - 00:21:19:16 Eric How do you change the mindset of what is valuable? How do you invest in experience as much of the storytelling as much as your action, and I'm using the big example, but very cost effective example. And also, by the way, that doesn't mean the traditional tactics and traditional approach, you know, just go out of the window. So it's it's just a matter of complementing each other.

00:21:19:18 - 00:21:51:09 Eric So in the course of our last season, you know, with the B2B Council, some colleagues brought to our attention, you know, the power of TikTok and how IBM, of all companies, are using it. And we just thought, oh, we never imagined that platform would be something that IBM would consider, or be beneficial. And when you actually follow the channel, when you look at the content they put out, it is quite  indicative of what they're trying to do.

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:11:16 Eric As you can imagine, TikTok videos are not big production. In fact, they shouldn't be, right? They're a bit more scrappy, you know, a bit more authentic, a bit more authentic, a bit more in the moment. So I'll give you two examples of what they did and which is quite interesting. One is the most traditional one in that they were at South by Southwest.

00:22:11:18 - 00:22:35:06 Eric So clearly they want to associate the brand with creativity and with, you know, future thinking. They use real people on the floor, IBM, as they call them. You know, in this case a prime market manager. And just do a TikTok video and you say, okay, well, that you know, what's what's so special about it. What's so special about it is how they show up.

00:22:35:10 - 00:23:03:17 Eric You know, they're using a creator as the interviewer and they're using the product marketing manager as a speaker, and they're using language that absolutely anyone can relate to. And that speaks volume to what Mary-Jane was saying. The human side. You know, the the IBMer was saying, hey, I'm a mom, I'm a working mom. And if AI could just sort of all of my household management duties, that would be my dream.

00:23:03:19 - 00:23:34:15 Eric And so all of a sudden it's very relatable. And so that's one example. The second example is they use deliberately TikTok humour, you know, really quote unquote rough and ready animation. But it's not because they can't afford, you know, big beautiful production. This is deliberate. You can tell. And it's a short video, TikTok humor, so often you can tell, oh, this is driving to a very specific audience and that would resonate with that specific audience.

00:23:34:16 - 00:24:03:03 Eric And the third, going back to AI, is they are using these little clips, you know, to explain AI to people and just keep reiterating, keep it simple. So I can only, you know, I'm an outsider. I don't run that program, but I can only imagine a) they're trying to reach, you know, at a younger generation workforce. And in, in this case it's so important that to touch to start, you know, grooming and be relevant to the next generation workforce.

00:24:03:05 - 00:24:30:09 Eric Extending their investment in a conference, in this case South by Southwest to a much larger audience and get more impact out of it and them making themselves just shake out the, you know, big blue, kind of, brand perception and, and just and just be humorous, just just be TikTok-ready. So all of these things contribute to, to me as a user, as a viewers experience of the brand.

00:24:30:11 - 00:24:49:00 Alison Those are great examples, Eric. And I really like how it's a great demonstration that doesn't have to be big budget to build your brand. They have absolutely focused on being very relevant and added a very human element to what they're doing. So thank you for bringing to life a lot of what we've talked about today with those very powerful examples.

00:24:49:02 - 00:24:56:02 Alison So what advice do you have for B2B marketers who are really looking to elevate their craft and seize missed opportunities? 

00:24:56:03 - 00:25:09:14 Mary-Jane So I would say, I would say, you know, if you're a younger person early in your career, you know, you're already on a path where you've selected, you know, what you feel is going to be your subject matter expertise, right, your skill set.

00:25:09:19 - 00:25:53:15 Mary-Jane And so you really need to understand that talent and brains are a dime a dozen. So for you to really advance, you need to to invest in making yourself the best that you can be in that area. But I think the other thing, and this is recognizing that we live in such a dynamic and changing world, is that really maintaining a broad curiosity in life and be willing to invest in broadening your knowledge across a lot of different areas beyond the the skill set that you're becoming an expert in, because it's that broader perspective that will bring to you the opportunities yourself to have creative insights.

00:25:53:17 - 00:26:14:15 Eric Yeah, Mary-Jane, what you just said reminds me of, a very good visual. One of my SEO clients, shared with me a long time ago. He calls it the T shape. So you have to be as broad as you need to be in the environment that you're operating and as deep as you need to be in terms of your subject matter expertise.

00:26:14:21 - 00:26:47:08 Eric And I think in today's world, like you said, many, many people start with being a subject matter expert, that that is a normal, career path. What is challenging now is how broad do we need to go? And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of signals in the B2B world, that creativity is actually much more valued and much more embraced, as reflected by, say, you know, a lot of the national and international awards, including, you know, our very own CMA Awards. And why?

00:26:47:09 - 00:27:25:09 Eric Because there's a lot to be learned from other disciplines. I'll give one final example, and that's an example actually Mary-Jane and I used it in our blog for the CMA, and that is, a campaign launched by Roland, which is an enterprise printing technology company, and it's a UK campaign. Now, traditionally, and I have worked with printing companies, traditionally, when you have a printing technology, you go to trade shows, you have white papers, you go knock on doors and tell people, you know how amazing, you know, this feed and feeds and whatever you can do with this technology. None of that is going to go away,

00:27:25:09 - 00:27:58:02 Eric  you still need to do all those things. But what they have done is they literally borrowed a song sheet from traditional B2C marketing. They are trying to demonstrate the superiority of that printing technology by addressing the, what they call 50 Shades of Ginger. Looking at how we can demonstrate the gradient of this technology through storytelling from a consumer lens.

00:27:58:04 - 00:28:28:12 Eric So they engaged influencers to talk about how redheads growing up, you know, have a lot of challenges, you know, being accepted because they are minority from from that perspective. And, but they have fun conversations, right? You know, oh, yeah. You know, I, I don't know if I was a ginger or a redhead, or what I call myself? And then they, they have, you know, influencers going on television talking about this technology because they produce this book of 50 Shades of Ginger.

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:55:14 Eric And from there they create an event and bringing all the, you know, people with ginger coloured hair, hair together to an event and talk about their shades and talk about, oh, how I can replicate that shade and that becomes this campaign on broadcast on, you know, morning television, in mainstream newspapers, which no print technology company traditionally would dream of getting that kind of attention.

00:28:55:20 - 00:29:09:20 Eric Now, of course, that example is so good that it won a Drum award in the UK last year. And but that is a really good example to show how both B2B and B2C can learn from each other.

00:29:09:22 - 00:29:30:23 Alison That is such a fun example. I have a couple of gingers in my life and I'll definitely be sharing that story with them. So you both have very impressive and enviable careers. So we'll step away from the B2B conversation now, and I'd love to end by having you each share a piece of advice for our listeners. I know that they would really enjoy being able to learn from each of you.

00:29:31:01 - 00:29:57:18 Mary-Jane A single piece of advice I would say. I mean, we all wear blinders, right? It what? It's what allows us to be really laser-focused. But of course, in being laser- focused, we miss out on what is in the periphery, in other words, the blinders that we wear. So I'd invite each of us to really challenge yourself, to be curious about what's on the other side of the blinders that you're wearing.

00:29:57:20 - 00:30:30:00 Eric Mine is very similar to Mary-Jane, you know, Mary-Jane, you used the word curiosity, which I use for myself and my team a lot. And for me, it doesn't matter where you are at in your career journey, curiosity and constant learning is really something that I value. And I encourage, my team and whoever works with me, you know, to to embrace, because, you know, to Mary -ane's point, we all have blinders and the environment changes so quickly.

00:30:30:05 - 00:30:43:12 Eric The last thing we want is to have a Kodak experience. So we we sometimes we just don't know what's coming. And you know, we really just need to pay attention to what is evolving.

00:30:43:14 - 00:31:03:13 Alison And that is great advice. Our profession is going through absolutely tectonic shift. So anyone that is going to continue to thrive absolutely has to be open to change. Embrace that. And curiosity is an absolutely mission critical skill. So great advice and thank you to the two of you. I also want to thank you for a really great and insightful conversation.

00:31:03:13 - 00:31:11:08 Alison I've learned a lot, and I know our listeners have as well, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to join us today.

00:31:11:10 - 00:31:12:04 Mary-Jane Our pleasure.

00:31:12:09 - 00:31:13:09 Eric Thank you so much.

00:31:13:11 - 00:31:14:12 Mary-Jane Thank you Alison.

00:31:14:15 - 00:31:17:23 Eric It's been great fun and great honour to to have this discussion with you.

00:31:18:04 - 00:31:23:19 Alison Thank you.

00:31:23:21 - 00:31:36:11 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this thought-provoking episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, is joined by Rhonda Barnet, CEO of Palette Skills to discuss the critical role of workforce development in driving innovation and productivity in Canada. Rhonda highlights the importance of including marketing in upskilling programs and delves into the early success stories emerging from the Digital Marketing Skills Canada (DMSC) program.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:07 - 00:00:53:07 Alison In today's episode, we have a special guest who brings a very unique perspective on workforce development as well as the critical role it plays in driving innovation and productivity in Canada. Joining me is Rhonda Barnet, the CEO of Pallete Skills, an organization that's at the forefront of delivering the Upskill Canada program. With a background in industry, Rhonda has a very deep understanding of the challenges employers face in developing the workforce of tomorrow and the importance of creating a truly sustainable, innovative economy.

00:00:53:09 - 00:01:24:16 Alison Rhonda is very much a female trailblazer, having achieved great heights in very male dominated industries and institutions. She is a successful executive, entrepreneur, sir and director, as well as a key voice in Canada and around the world when it comes to skills of the future, workforce development and diversity. Rhonda and I also share our first. She was the first woman to chair the National Board of Canada's oldest, largest trade association, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, and I'm the first female CEO of the CMA.

00:01:24:18 - 00:01:47:20 Alison Rhonda joined Pallete Skills in 2021 to help Canadians build careers and growing industries, which is how our paths crossed. The CMA, in partnership with two of our member companies, Jelly Academy and Growclass, were awarded funding to upskill 1200 marketers and help them find new roles as part of Palette Skills innovative upskilling Canada program, which is funded by the Canadian government.

00:01:47:22 - 00:02:15:03 Alison In our conversation will delve into the origin story of Upskill Canada and the government's vision for addressing key skill gaps across high demand professions and industries. We'll also discuss the case for including marketing in the upskilling initiative and the early success stories emerging from our Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, which is led by the CMA. Rhonda will also share her insights on how upskilling drives innovation and her advice for aspiring leaders in our field.

00:02:15:05 - 00:02:24:14 Alison So let's dive in and learn how we can all play a part in building a brighter future for marketing and the Canadian workforce. Welcome, Rhonda. It's great to be speaking with you today.

00:02:24:16 - 00:02:27:08 Rhonda Thank you Alison. Thank you so much.

00:02:27:10 - 00:02:38:15 Alison I'd love to kick things off by having you share what government needs and aspirations led to the creation of Upskill Canada, and how does Upskill Canada aim to impact various professions and industries in our country?

00:02:38:17 - 00:03:01:07 Rhonda Yeah, thank you for that. It's a nice, broad question that I'd love to take some time on. So this investment comes from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada which used to be Industry Canada. So having come from 32 years in industry, I know full well of the issues that industry face around skilled labour and the skilled labou r shortage.

00:03:01:09 - 00:03:30:14 Rhonda So this investment was really about looking at the systemic problem in Canada, where, you know, on one hand, we tout that we have this highly skilled workforce and that we are second in the OECD in terms of tertiary degrees in the world. And yet we have this enormous skills gap, and mid-career workers are not able to keep navigating to that next job along the path in Canada.

00:03:30:20 - 00:03:59:21 Rhonda So while on one hand, we're making tremendous strides and incredible investments as a country in skills development, you know, at the early stages of a person's career, we need to do more to keep them connected. And I think from a manufacturing perspective of retooling, we don't throw away things. We retool. And that's what upskilling is. We want to be able to do small things in a fast period of time to ensure that workers have what they need for that next opportunity.

00:03:59:22 - 00:04:33:18 Rhonda We want to make the most in Canada of the workforce that we have available to us, so that we can actually compete on talent. And so that's really where this whole Upskill Canada investment was born, that this was an initiative that was put forward to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. They put out an RFP in 2022. We were selected March 2023 to be the lead applicant on this $250 billion investment to upskill 15,500 workers over three years.

00:04:33:18 - 00:04:59:05 Rhonda It's the biggest investment in Canadian history in upskilling. And we're so privileged and honoured to be the lead applicant to really convene the ecosystem to do this meaningful work. So, you know, why is it important? It's important because, you know, at the root of it, we have this, these hot pockets of highly skilled talent that are underutilized. People are not getting their full advancement in their career.

00:04:59:07 - 00:05:32:10 Rhonda And we have all of these companies with job openings. And so our program is to really bridge that gap. It's to say, okay, let's look at the potential of the workers and these sort of short cycle programs that can get them the very specific skills that industry is  asking for in a very short time. And let's put that together across the country, across sectors, make meaningful investments that are going to help workers achieve their full potential and help employers achieve their full potential by having the skilled talent they need to grow and compete.

00:05:32:12 - 00:05:39:15 Rhonda And when that works, then Canada can achieve its full potential with thriving humming economy.

00:05:39:17 - 00:06:11:00 Alison Thanks so much, Rhonda. What an amazing first and what an important mission critical mandate that you have through pallet and the Skills Canada Initiative and I really applaud the innovation that you, in partnership with the federal government, have developed in order to really meet that mission critical need. I'd love to have you share what led to the inclusion of marketing, especially digital marketing, in the Upskill Canada initiative and what data was used to showcase the importance of digital marketing in the skills gap in the marketplace.

00:06:11:02 - 00:06:35:17 Rhonda You know, when we set this up, we were given the sectors. We were given six key sectors to develop an investment strategy around. Those sectors are ag tech, advanced manufacturing, bio manufacturing, clean tech, digital tech and cyber technology. And you know, marketing wasn't specifically called out as a sector. But of course we know marketing is actually a crosswalk across all sectors.

00:06:35:17 - 00:06:59:15 Rhonda And digital marketing even more so, we know that this digital investment that we're making is really cross-cutting across all sectors. But you know, where did where do we sort of get the justification for this investment? When we were given this investment, we went to Deloitte to help support an investment framework for these funds that would have the most impact for Canada economy in these six sectors.

00:06:59:17 - 00:07:27:03 Rhonda And that investment analysis is available on our website. But that was very big macroeconomic analysis of, you know, where are the key roles and sectors that if we made investments there, we'd get the most economic gain for our country. And what we heard in that report, in our own report, is that digital marketing skills are critical for success of all of Canada's growth sectors.

00:07:27:03 - 00:08:03:00 Rhonda So it's in that report. And even though it wasn't called out specifically in our application process, your organization came forward and you built a very compelling case, a very compelling proposal, and you really highlighted the business need in Canada for digital marketing. And I remember this actually coming over my desk for review. And I'd like to maybe read some of the stats that came through that application that really captured our interest and our attention as we looked to approve various investments.

00:08:03:02 - 00:08:33:07 Rhonda So three organizations which are near and dear to me. The Conference Board of Canada, was cited, estimating that the demand for digital marketers is grown over 90% in the last five years. That's really compelling. And the ICTC, the Information and Communication Technology Council forecasts that Canada's interactive digital media space is on pace to require an additional 103,000 workers by 2025.

00:08:33:07 - 00:08:58:22 Rhonda So you submitted that in 2023. We're almost at 2025. So how are we going to meet that demand, that's compelling. And additional statistics from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce from 2020, 70% of Canadian CEOs report significant challenges recruiting and retaining diverse digital marketing talent with the right certifications and skills. So that's a very compelling business case that you presented.

00:08:59:00 - 00:09:28:15 Rhonda And what we know is that marketing is a really great example of a profession where skills are constantly evolving, and that's really what Upskill Canada is here to solve for is, as things are disrupted and changing, we want to make sure that the workers stay relevant, that they have that next skill to remain relevant in their profession, or to change professions, that they are given an opportunity to leverage what they have, add something small and have a vibrant new career.

00:09:28:15 - 00:09:50:20 Rhonda So I think this investment, it ticked all of those boxes and we're very excited. And I think we're going to talk a little bit later on about this specific investment. But we do know that the the investments that are made in this program, they are cross-cutting across all sectors. So it's a great project for Upskill Canada. It's a great project for Canada.

00:09:50:22 - 00:10:22:05 Alison Thanks for and and I really appreciate you and your team being open to the submission that we made and the importance of upskilling in marketing. There is no industry in Canada that isn't going through dramatic change today, I would say, and clearly I have a bias, but think having been worked across a number of different industries, the role of marketing and the number of external pressures and the amount of change that we as a profession are grappling with really is significantly more than most other industries.

00:10:22:05 - 00:10:42:14 Alison And it really speaks to the need to upskill marketers and make sure that they can continue to have the skills that they need to thrive and help the businesses that they represent grow. And we're certainly seeing that in the high demand for the three programs that we're offering as part of the Digital Marketing Skills Canada initiative. And we can talk about that a little bit later.

00:10:42:16 - 00:10:59:06 Alison Now, I would love you to talk about why workforce development is critical for fueling innovation in Canada, and also how can upskilling programs like ours, the Digital Marketing Skills Canada, help address Canada's productivity gap, especially as it relates to innovation?

00:10:59:08 - 00:11:24:05 Rhonda Yeah, so when I think about workforce development, I actually like to use workforce innovation. I'm going around the country right now talking about the need for workforce innovation, but I've really started talking about it in terms of productivity. There's a lot of conversations in Canada right now about productivity and lagging productivity for our country. I think about productivity as a three legged stool.

00:11:24:07 - 00:11:53:04 Rhonda There's research and development and investments there by companies. There's new technologies that are leveraged through companies, and then there's people that need the skills to take advantage of those new technologies and to do that research and development, to develop that next technology, to develop that next product. So if we're going to think about productivity in Canada, let's not just think about technology and how we're going to have more, better technology.

00:11:53:06 - 00:12:24:16 Rhonda We need humans to do that. And so we have a three legged stool in Canada around productivity. And really it's almost a bit of a chicken and egg because we can't develop those technologies if we don't have the skilled workers to deploy and companies to do that research and development and to leverage new technologies and companies. You know, when you think about productivity, it's really about creating more output and more value with less input.

00:12:24:18 - 00:13:03:19 Rhonda And, you know, when we really give people high level, specific skills to do the job, to do a better job, to do a higher quality job, that's an advancement for the country, that's an advancement for the worker. And so I really like to think about workforce development and workforce innovation as a big lever in productivity in Canada. So how are we looking at solving this problem at Pallette, you know, through our investments and your investment being being one of those. We're really looking at this pool of workers in Canada that are these high potential people that aren't being seen for their full potential.

00:13:03:19 - 00:13:35:19 Rhonda And we think about all of these unfilled jobs. And as I said in the opening, we're here to bridge that gap between the skills gap and industry needs. That's what we're here to do in Canada. We want to elevate the standard of upskilling because we want to demonstrate that with partners like you that we can design short cycle, quick programs to get workers the skills they need, where they're at right now and deploy them into the workforce quickly. And again, that's such a big lever in productivity.

00:13:35:19 - 00:13:53:09 Rhonda When we think about the double drag of people not having their full potential, it's a drag on the economy and we're going to make quick investments and we're going to then be able to lift and see a double win on the economy when workers and employers achieve their full potential. So that's what our investments are aimed to do.

00:13:53:11 - 00:14:21:16 Rhonda And we know that to solve this, we need to leverage our our highly diverse, highly skilled and highly motivated workforce so that we can ensure that workers are getting the right skills at the right time in their working lives. And we need to be thinking about workers, as you know, in terms of their whole working lives. It's not like you go to school for 3 or 4 years, and then you're just dumped into the workforce for 30 or 40 years, and you're fine with just small fine tuning or training.

00:14:21:16 - 00:14:42:20 Rhonda We think about upskilling is really elevating a person. So that's what Upskill Canada's here to do. That's how we think about being innovative in terms of workforce development, that we're really going to use these investments to help Canadians make the most of their working lives and help companies access the skills they need at the time they need them to compete and grow.

00:14:42:22 - 00:14:50:13 Rhonda And this is what we need to innovate on the Canadian economy and around productivity in Canada.

00:14:50:15 - 00:15:27:02 Alison So well said, Rhonda, and when I think about my finishing my schooling and 25 plus years later, how much the profession, the our consumers, the marketplace has evolved. If I had thought that what I knew when I finished school was all I would need, I would have been out of a career, this career decades ago. So that ongoing learning and upskilling is so important to us as a country to benefiting our ability to innovate and drive our economy, and also for the individual from a job satisfaction and job growth.

00:15:27:04 - 00:15:54:08 Alison I will say one of the most rewarding things about the training we're doing through the DMSC initiative is seeing firsthand and talking to the learners as they're going through one of our three programs, as they're getting support in their job search and as they're landing their job, there is nothing more rewarding than to see the impact we're having a very personal level, too, and often on underrepresented groups.

00:15:54:10 - 00:16:21:11 Alison That is such a core mandate and mission for, I know, for Upskill Canada, for Palette, and certainly for the CMA as well. So to see the positive impact other national as well as an individual basis speaks volumes about the importance of the program and company that you're leading. Now I would love you to share what kind of impact you envision pilots upskilling initiatives will have on the broader Canadian economy.

00:16:21:13 - 00:17:01:13 Rhonda Yeah, I just love this question. I love to answer this question, and I want to just keep going back to this concept of potential because it's really about potential. Canada has so much potential. We have great humans, great workers in our country, highly skilled workers, and we have amazing companies in Canada. And if we're going to achieve our full potential as a country, we have to make sure that workers are able to achieve their full potential, that they are seen for the jobs of the future, that they are seen for that next job, that they are not pigeonholed because of the kind of experience that they've had to date or the country that they came

00:17:01:13 - 00:17:24:03 Rhonda from, that they don't have Canadian experience. We need humans to be seen for their full potential, so that companies can achieve their full potential and Canada can achieve its full potential. So to me, that is the greatest impact that we can have through this investment. But this investment is just a drop in the bucket. I do know that, but it's an important one and it's a national one.

00:17:24:05 - 00:17:50:07 Rhonda And so this investment is going to change the lives of at least 15,500 workers in Canada, will get access to these upskilling programs across sectors, across our nation. And the goal is to have 75% of those workers achieve job placement. So that's the real differentiator. That's the real impact here is that we're not looking to put bums on seats in training programs in Canada.

00:17:50:09 - 00:18:18:14 Rhonda Lots of organizations can do that. We really want pointed upskilling programs, high potential workers that want to take those programs and land in a job and make sure that everything that we are doing and investing in is leading to those job outcomes. We have significant targets for equity deserving groups within our our investment mandate, and all delivery partners are contracted to ensure that they're meeting those.

00:18:18:14 - 00:18:34:14 Rhonda And I would like to say that we are knocking those out of the park. So I want to give you a few stats from our early wins on this investment. And we're only one year into the program. And, you know, it took several months to get off the ground and to make the formal investments with organizations like yours.

00:18:34:14 - 00:18:57:08 Rhonda So we expect to hear so many more stats coming out in the next few months around impact and job placement. But right now, what we're seeing is that 94% of our participants have identified as belonging to one or more of the equity deserving groups that we have been contracted to to fulfill. So that's that's really amazing. And this one blows my mind.

00:18:57:08 - 00:19:18:13 Rhonda 52.3% of them were women, because when we were given this mandate and trying to figure out in all these technology sectors that we're serving, how are we going to attract 50% women? How are we going to think about the population, which I think is 52% of women in the country, that that we can do that. And guess what?

00:19:18:13 - 00:19:42:18 Rhonda Right now we're doing that and we're pretty excited about that. We've already upskilled through our programs, around 3000 workers. And in that data, we're seeing that 52% through all delivery partners are women. So that excites me because of all the work that I did around women in manufacturing. 84% of those have agreed that the program gave them the technical skills that they need to compete.

00:19:42:18 - 00:20:07:04 Rhonda So these programs are relevant, and that's really exciting. 86% said that the program gave them the professional skills to compete, and more than 90% said that they would recommend the program to others. So what we're doing is making a difference in people's lives, and that is going to translate to jobs, and that's what we'll be tracking next. But that's a broad scope of the investments.

00:20:07:04 - 00:20:28:16 Rhonda You know, I'd really like to spend some time talking about your investment. Alison, I'd really like to hear about what you're doing with this digital marketing program that where we've made an investment through Upskill Canada. I want to hear about some of the insights and early successes and love for you to share with me and share with the country what you're doing and what you're achieving.

00:20:28:18 - 00:20:56:00 Alison Rhonda, I am more than happy to have the tables turned on me and switch roles to the interviewee instead of the interviewer, so thank you very much for the question. So I will start by saying that earlier you called out the importance of mid-career upskilling. So part of our Digital Marketing Skills Canada consortium, we have three different programs, but two of them are focused on that specific need, that mid-market need because we, like you, know there's a mission critical demand there.

00:20:56:02 - 00:21:17:09 Alison And I'm also very happy to say from a diversity perspective, you're doing very well. On the female side, we're doing even better. We're sitting at about 65% of our learners are female, and we have over 80% of all of the learners that are participating to date in our program are from underrepresented groups. And we're performing quite well as BIPOC, too.

00:21:17:09 - 00:21:50:10 Alison So we're very, very happy that collectively and also our program are over achieving the targets on the diversity side to0. So we're only six months in. We just celebrated our six month anniversary on the program. We started in January, and the beginning point was having our consortium build, launch and ramp up three upskilling marketing programs to create new pathways for junior through that important mid-market and more senior career marketing talent into Canada's very dynamic digital marketing space.

00:21:50:12 - 00:22:18:16 Alison The CMA is absolutely thrilled that we're partnering with two other leaders in delivering these three distinct training programs that are uniquely equipped to really meet the needs of marketers across a wide range of skills and experience. And as I highlighted earlier, the marketing profession is moving at warp speed. There are so many external pressures that are changing how we do our our work, and it can be very challenging for marketers to stay up to speed.

00:22:18:16 - 00:22:45:04 Alison So each of our programs is uniquely equipped to ensure that they can. And it also makes sure that our marketers who graduate can excel in today's very demanding and constantly evolving marketing environment. So one of our partners is Jelly Academy, and they're an indigenous-led Canadian company who are specializing in delivering training to junior marketers and also those that are interested in pursuing a career in marketing for the first time.

00:22:45:06 - 00:23:24:10 Alison Our second partners Growclass, and they're a female-founded Canadian company. They've got a really terrific track record for upskilling mid-level digital marketers. And the CMA complements these two programs with our Chartered Marketer program. The Chartered Marketer program is Canada's only professional designation for marketers, and it's designed for mid to senior level marketers. So one of the key benefits of our Digital Marketing Skills Canada consortium is that we do offer these three different seven week training programs that are very specifically designed to upskill marketers with very different levels of experience, from brand new to the profession, through to quite senior marketers.

00:23:24:12 - 00:23:48:03 Alison In our first six months, we've had over 1100 applications for our training programs, and we're on track to upskill over 470 learners. That's actually 70% higher than our target. And it really speaks to the high demand for the marketing upskilling that we're providing. We're training many marketers in transition and very focused on underrepresented workers for the program as well.

00:23:48:09 - 00:24:27:05 Alison So I'm happy to share that we're making a very positive difference there, too. And I shared some of those stats a bit earlier. But as I called up the the individuals, how it all ladders up to the overall impact that our programs having in the Upskill Canada program was having, has the potential to be such a game changer for our country and also at the individual level. Every day, every week, we're having more people graduate from one of our programs and to talk to them about the positive impact we're having, to share and support them through their career journey, and to see the satisfaction they're landing new roles and really seeing their career trajectory

00:24:27:05 - 00:24:58:05 Alison change for the positive is truly one of the most rewarding parts of my job. So on that, we're supporting our learners and graduates through their job search, and really ensuring that they have the important networking and interviewing skills and that's something that is a key focus of the consortium. I know of the bigger Upskill Canada program as well. And then our all graduates also benefit from a one year membership with the CMA, which makes it really easy for them to network, to continue to learn, and to be part of a thriving national marketing community.

00:24:58:07 - 00:25:21:18 Alison We're also very proud that 241 of our learners have already been placed in jobs. 

Rhonda Wow. 

Alison That's over 50% of all of our learners to date, and there are quite a few learners that are still finishing their programs, so haven't been able to focus as fully on their job search yet. So with that, we are very much on track to exceed your target and to have more than 80% of our graduates placed in new roles within six months of graduating.

00:25:21:18 - 00:25:31:05 Alison And that is such an important mandate for the CMA and our partners in the consortium. And I know it's certainly an important mandate for you and Palette as well.

00:25:31:06 - 00:25:52:23 Rhonda Wow, congratulations, Alison. That's just so exciting. And, you know, this is such a great example of elevating the standard of upskilling in Canada. You're doing it. You're knocking it out of the park. We've made this investment with you. You did all of the right things. You found the right curriculum that industry was looking for and the right kind of people to put through those programs.

00:25:53:01 - 00:26:13:06 Rhonda And they're succeeding, and they're completing those programs, and they're getting jobs in Canada, and they're working for companies to help those companies grow and prosper. So congratulations. This is exactly what we're hoping for in this investment. And thank you for helping to set the standard of upskilling in Canada.

00:26:13:08 - 00:26:46:10 Alison It's truly our pleasure and is very much a team effort. We have such great partners in our consortium, and it really shows the power of bringing together talented organizations and consortiums so that we can have the biggest possible impact. One of the other things that we launched last month was a talent pipeline, because with all of these great graduates and newly upskilled marketers across from very junior to quite senior people, we know that we want to make it as easy as possible for employers who are looking for these roles to find top talent.

00:26:46:10 - 00:27:09:07 Alison So we have a talent database that is easily accessible and easily searchable, and we're seeing very good feedback and uptake from not just the members of the Canadian Marketing Association, but it's open to employers across the country of all sizes. And it's such a powerful way to make sure that you're getting the right talent, and the most recently upskill talent to really help your business succeed.

00:27:09:09 - 00:27:25:01 Alison So, Rhonda, you've been very generous with your time today, and I'd love to ask you two questions before we close out. As a female CEO of a significant and dynamic organization, and one that's setting new firsts in our country, what do you attribute your success to?

00:27:25:03 - 00:27:48:17 Rhonda Yeah, that's a that's a really great question. You know, people think that I climbed a lot of ladders to get here, but I didn't I didn't, I didn't climb big corporate ladders to be the CEO of a national not for profit. But I did big things and I did hard things. And, and the way that I was able to do those things was through a lot of sponsorship and mentorship.

00:27:48:19 - 00:28:05:04 Rhonda You know, I came from a blue collar family, was the first to go to university, in my entire family and I took a degree in mathematics, because I was good in mathematics. I didn't know what job it would lead me to. But people mentored and coached me and helped me along the way to help me achieve my full potential.

00:28:05:04 - 00:28:47:22 Rhonda And it's really been my personal story that I could achieve more than I could see for myself. That there was this vision of myself that others could see as well, and I could learn to see that for myself. And I can have the confidence that I could do those things and follow that path. And so that's really what we're here to do in Upskill Canada, is to make sure that people see pathways for their future, that they don't get stuck, that because of their experience or their family of origin, that they're stuck in one place, that I think employment is the greatest success to break down barriers in, in our economy.

00:28:48:00 - 00:29:08:12 Rhonda And so we're here to really make sure that people are seen for their full potential. And that's been my own story. So it's so gratifying to have lived that myself and to now be able to do that for others. So when I was with the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters and running Women in Manufacturing, it was a really big policy initiative.

00:29:08:12 - 00:29:30:11 Rhonda And I had so many companies and people interested, and I got on the world stage with this. And and what I found, though, was as I was doing all of that work at a policy level to really bring attention and awareness to this, that real women would stand at my feet and say like, how? How do I do it?

00:29:30:13 - 00:29:53:23 Rhonda And so now through Upskill Canada, we have investments and tools to help people facing barriers to employment to access those programs and to be seen for better employment. So that's really my personal story. Like, who knew when I was growing up that I'd be the CEO of a national not for profit, but I did big things and I did them well, and I've had to learn to have confidence in my abilities.

00:29:53:23 - 00:30:04:03 Rhonda And lots of good people have put me on their shoulders to to ensure that I could see it and feel it, and to mentor and support me in my success.

00:30:04:05 - 00:30:26:12 Alison I love that you've come full circle. I also love you've done big things, but you also called out, you've done hard things and that's such an important part of growing your career and ultimately succeeding. And the other one that you've shared that really resonated with me from my personal experience is having people who believed in you and helped you see potential in yourself that you didn't, couldn't see without them.

00:30:26:14 - 00:30:42:17 Alison And to your point, Upskill Canada being able to help people over 15,000 people in Canada see that potential in themselves and really accelerate their career. My last question is, what advice would you give our listeners who are aspiring to leadership roles?

00:30:42:19 - 00:31:04:20 Rhonda Well, I think it's believe in yourself, have a vision for your future and take steps towards it. Like, I think you know, you don't always get invited in. Sometimes you have to take that step yourself and take the initiative. And so programs like Upskill Canada can help you. You can go and search all of the programs that we have in Canada and invest in yourself.

00:31:04:23 - 00:31:37:15 Rhonda These programs have very low barrier to entry. They're mostly subsidized that you can go and and be matched with programs to help you take that next step. And I think, you know, workers in Canada need to think about keeping current and taking more steps on their path and not getting stuck and not being fixed and, and have bold visions for yourself and go out there and and try to make it happen, because Canada is a great country to make that happen, frankly.

00:31:37:16 - 00:31:45:08 Rhonda I think there's a lot of opportunity in this country for people who want to be leaders, to be seen as leaders.

00:31:45:10 - 00:32:11:16 Alison Rhonda, it has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for your partnership and on behalf of the Canadian Marketing Association and also our DMSC consortium, we are thrilled to be part of the mission that you've seen for Canada and really helping to upskill our profession and help advance our economy and make sure our businesses are highly competitive and thriving, both on a national and a global basis.

00:32:11:18 - 00:32:13:19 Alison So thank you, thank you, thank you.

00:32:13:21 - 00:32:20:02 Rhonda Thank you, Alison.

00:32:20:04 - 00:32:32:18 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Jacqueline Ryan, CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation and Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee. Jacqueline shares her passion for sports and the Foundation's crucial role in supporting Canada's elite athletes. With the Paris 2024 Olympic Games approaching, they discuss the success of Canada's female athletes and reveal how Canadians can rally behind Team Canada.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:16 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:18 - 00:00:45:12 Alison Welcome to a special and timely episode of CMA Connect. With the Paris Olympics just around the corner, I'm absolutely thrilled to bring you an inside look at the Canadian Olympic Committee's preparations and the exciting prospects for Team Canada at the upcoming games. Joining us today is Jacquie Ryan. She's the CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation and Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee.

00:00:45:14 - 00:01:17:16 Alison Jacquie is one of the most influential and effective leaders in sport. Her impressive career spans over 20 years, leading strategy, brand, communications, sponsorship, loyalty programs, digital marketing, corporate social responsibility and sustainability in sports in the financial services sector. She's also held board roles, including her current position as a CMA Board director. Jacquie brings a unique perspective to her role not only as a seasoned sport marketing executive, but also as someone with a deeply personal connection to the Olympic movement.

00:01:17:18 - 00:01:43:03 Alison After growing up in an Olympic family, and her sister's experience as an Olympic athlete, this really fuelled  Jacquie's lifelong passion for sport and her commitment to supporting Canadian athletes on the global stage. In our episode today, Jacquie is sharing insights on the Canadian Olympic Committee's marketing and sponsorship strategies and how they're collaborating with partners to create impactful campaigns that will resonate with Canadians while also driving business results.

00:01:43:05 - 00:02:06:19 Alison We're also going to explore the Team Canada Impact Agenda, a critical social impact program that reflects the Canadian Olympic Committee's commitment to fostering safe, inclusive and barrier-free sports environments for all. And we'll dive into the outlook for Team Canada in Paris, and the athletes poised to make their mark. This discussion promises to be a fascinating behind the scenes look at the incredible work being done by the Canadian Olympic Committee.

00:02:06:21 - 00:02:08:08 Alison So welcome, Jacquie.

00:02:08:10 - 00:02:14:02 Jacquie Thank you Alison. Great pleasure to be here today. I'm so excited to chat with you today about it.

00:02:14:04 - 00:02:18:07 Alison I really appreciate you taking time in what has to be a remarkably busy schedule.

00:02:18:09 - 00:02:20:19 Jacquie It is indeed.

00:02:20:21 - 00:02:30:23 Alison So I'd love to kick it off by asking, what attracted you to the role of CEO at the Canadian Olympic Committee? And how has your lifelong passion for sport shaped your career journey?

00:02:31:01 - 00:02:51:18 Jacquie Thanks, Alison, and thanks for asking. Yes, I am just so fortunate to be in the position I'm in. What attracted me to the role? You know, it really comes from, you've already mentioned it, just a lifelong passion for sport. I do come from a sports oriented family. We grew up doing lots of different sports together. The one common thread for our family was skiing.

00:02:51:19 - 00:03:12:18 Jacquie So we spent a lot of time together doing that, to the extent that my sister ended up excelling in skiing and becoming an Olympic athlete in freestyle skiing. So I had that really unique purview of seeing how hard and how dedicated, how committed these athletes are on their journey, and all the resources and supports it takes to get there.

00:03:12:19 - 00:03:33:21 Jacquie So that's kind of the purview I come from. And then that in addition to just really enjoying being in a sporting environment, I found my way after university in Banff teaching skiing and hadn't quite decided what I wanted to do with my life. I didn't know what to do. I actually didn't know that jobs existed in sports and sports marketing.

00:03:33:23 - 00:04:01:01 Jacquie I knew very little about that aspect of the business, but I knew what I loved to do. So I went from out west, came back to Toronto, had very, very fortunate opportunities to work at some of the best sports marketing agencies in the country - Lang and Associates, MacLaren Momentum. And then one day I received a call where there was a six month contract available at RBC to work on the Olympics. And it was a contract.

00:04:01:02 - 00:04:44:01 Jacquie No, no, necessarily long-term commitment, but I just couldn't resist. So packed my bags, went up the street, ended up at RBC on this contract. Well the contract turned into full- time employment. I ended up staying there for 12 years and really just an incredible experience. I had Olympics as part of my portfolio the whole time. I did some other things community marketing, product marketing, RBC Foundation, but really the largest thing I did and the most exciting thing that I got to do with my team there, was to write the business case to acquire the Vancouver 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games sponsorship, and then to launch the marketing activities around that, the Olympic torch

00:04:44:01 - 00:05:11:18 Jacquie relay, taking that across the country from coast to coast to coast. And we really enjoyed our time on that portfolio and really drove really incredible business and brand results for the organization. So really, really proud of that effort and what a journey it was. So I was loving my time at RBC and then got a call about this wonderful opportunity at Scotiabank to go over and be the Vice President of Sponsorship, Partnerships and Philanthropy.

00:05:11:18 - 00:05:33:15 Jacquie So I did a few different things there. I worked on the Scene program there, philanthropy portfolio, and then ultimately, pretty much the last thing I did before I left was work on the Scotiabank Arena deal, which again, really tapped into my experience having been at RBC in terms of how to write a business case for a very large marketing investment. And so we put the business case together,

00:05:33:20 - 00:06:06:17 Jacquie we pitched for the rights and and the rest is history, as they say. So really proud also of that. So again, enjoying my time. And then was offered the opportunity to come over to the Canadian Olympic Committee. And based on everything I've just said in my background, I think it's pretty obvious why I said, absolutely, I'm coming. So I came over in 2019 as the Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee, and that means my team really oversees the marketing partnerships, digital, brand marketing events, sustainability and business development.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:41:01 Jacquie So we're responsible for for driving all of the sponsorship and the revenue for the organization. So started that in 2019 and then in 2021 was then offered, additionally, the opportunity to take on a CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. So I have both jobs. I love absolutely everything I do. I really, it's been a wonderful journey and I think hopefully it helps to sort of illustrate just really following your passion and how my passion for sports is really connected with, you know, my interests around marketing and being really purpose-led to make sure that the work I do is mission-driven and really makes an impact in Canada.

00:06:41:01 - 00:06:45:16 Jacquie So really, that's how I got here and it's been a pretty amazing journey.

00:06:45:18 - 00:07:11:00 Alison That really is a remarkable journey. And I also love the fact that you took a bet on yourself and what it led to, like leaving a full time job not just for a contract, but for six month contract and look at the reward. And that's such a great lesson for everyone listening at any stage in our career. So the Canadian Olympic Committee plays a crucial role in supporting Team Canada's athletes, as well as working with sponsors to create impactful marketing campaigns.

00:07:11:00 - 00:07:23:21 Alison And you clearly have been on the other side of that as a sponsor with really strong business results. I'd love you to walk us through how the COC collaborates with its marketing partners to drive their business schools, while also advancing the Olympic movement.

00:07:23:23 - 00:07:41:22 Jacquie We're really proud of this work, really proud of the marketing partners that we get to collaborate with every day. I mean, I think what's really important to point out and not many people know this, is that the Canadian Olympic Committee is largely privately funded. And what I mean by that is the majority of the revenue that comes into the organization,

00:07:41:22 - 00:08:05:09 Jacquie the overwhelming majority, is from our marketing partners, our sponsors. And so they sponsor our organization, we provide marketing rights, etc., and ultimately, what's also important to point out is as a not-for-profit, the majority of the dollars that came in from our marketing partners go right back as an investment into the sports system. And so it's a, it's a really important relationship

00:08:05:09 - 00:08:27:16 Jacquie we have with our marketing partners. And we're proud of our marketing partner family. These are the top brands in Canada. We are in very good company, whether that be RBC, Canadian Tire, Lululemon, Bell, Sobeys, Air Canada, Petro Canada, the list goes on and on. And these are not only top brands in Canada, they're a pleasure to work with.

00:08:27:16 - 00:09:01:00 Jacquie They're also the top marketers in Canada. So it's an interesting relationship because again, they're playing a key role in strengthening the sport system and supporting our Olympic athletes, while at the same time they have access to a really unique marketing platform. The Canadian Olympic Committee is the number one national sports property in Canada. And what drives that is that we have incredible reach - 75% of Canadians engage with Team Canada and the Canadian Committee throughout the games.

00:09:01:00 - 00:09:28:05 Jacquie They engage many ways, but in particular through broadcast and digital. So our property provides an exclusive and a universal platform. And when I say that exclusive, I mean that when you come on the Canadian Olympic Committee as a partner, you're exclusive in that category. So you absolutely own it relative to your competitors. So you've got this point of distinction and then it's universal because again, 75% of Canadians are actively engaged with Team Canada.

00:09:28:07 - 00:09:58:23 Jacquie And so it really is an interesting platform that has this massive reach. And it connects Canadian's passions with a greater purpose. And, you know, that's all about investing in Olympians on their journey to the podium. A big part of our mission is focused on our purpose, and our purpose is to transform Canada through the power of sport. So we're super fortunate to, again, have these partners that are aligned with our values and really embrace our mission.

00:09:58:23 - 00:10:22:00 Jacquie And I mean, the list is long. I can highlight, certainly I'm very proud of, I'm wearing it today, Lululemon our partner. So they are responsible for the team Canada Lululemon kit. And what that means, it's what the athletes wear when they go to games. And so we launched that kid on April 16th. And it's a kit that's arrived in store on April 16th and online,

00:10:22:04 - 00:10:41:20 Jacquie but it took years to get there. The... everything that the athletes wear, the Lululemon works with the athletes individually and with a few different athletes to figure out what clothing is best serving their needs when they're at games. I'll just highlight one other because again, the list is long. RBC Training Ground is another really important program.

00:10:42:01 - 00:11:02:08 Jacquie And it's it's much more than a marketing program. They talk about it of course, in their marketing communications, but it's all about identification of athletes who have the potential and investing in those athletes on their journey. So they work directly with the national sporting organizations across the country. It's going into its 10th season, and the success stories go on and on.

00:11:02:08 - 00:11:21:05 Jacquie Whether it be Kelsey Mitchell, Pierce LePage, these are athletes that started an RBC training ground and made it all the way to the Olympic Games and came home with with medals. So there's lots of athletes have gone through the program. We're very, very proud of the program and proud to partner with RBC again to have such an impact on the sport system in Canada.

00:11:21:05 - 00:11:32:04 Jacquie So those are just two examples of a very, very long list. But hopefully that helps illustrate how deep our partners go in terms of their investments and building wonderfully engaging marketing programs.

00:11:32:06 - 00:11:58:20 Alison Thanks so much, Jacquie. And I'm very excited, as one of the 75% of Canadians who call ourselves fans of the Olympics, to see the marketing come to life. Now you join the Canadian Olympic Committee in the pandemic. So definitely a unique time to be starting a role. And your first two games had some truly unique challenges as well. So now you're heading into your third Olympics and it will be the first full on Olympics post-pandemic.

00:11:59:02 - 00:12:06:02 Alison I'd love to hear what are you most excited about? And also what's the outlook for Team Canada in Paris?

00:12:06:04 - 00:12:30:13 Jacquie Yes. What a time it's been. And having joined it to your point in in August of 2019 is when I joined, so got to work, I learned a lot, a lot about the business. I kept thinking, oh my gosh, there's just so much to take in here, how am I ever going to learn it all? Then the pandemic hit, and as an organization, we were actually the first organization to to the first country actually indicate that we're just not comfortable sending the athletes to the games.

00:12:30:13 - 00:12:50:19 Jacquie The athletes themselves are not comfortable. They're much more concerned with ensuring their communities and their country is safe and healthy. So looking back, Tokyo and Beijing, both games in the Covid context and then they were back to back. So the game should have been in 2020 and 2022. And they were in fact 2021 and then 2022 literally like however many months later?

00:12:50:21 - 00:13:18:06 Jacquie So it was quite something. Summer and Winter games, you know the resilience of these athletes just incredible. You know, coming from the most adverse conditions, no training conditions. The, you know, the women and the men couldn't even get in the pool. Unless they had a pool in their backyard, there was no training happening for days and days and days and months and in other areas of the world, there was and so these athletes just persevered through and they performed so well.

00:13:18:07 - 00:13:47:18 Jacquie And so the results are something for all Canadians to be really, really proud of and for Tokyo for example, 24 medals, which is one of our best ever and really looking to eclipse that this year in Paris. And, you know, another part that I really do like to talk about, and really important part of the story is that of the medals won in Tokyo and Beijing, in Tokyo, 75% of the medals won for Canadians were women, for Beijing, 55%.

00:13:48:00 - 00:14:07:14 Jacquie And this is unprecedented. This is just really something to be proud of. And, you know, as a result of all of that, is these women incredibly inspiring that what we saw was increased fan engagement with women athletes and women's sports overall, and that that's through our channels. And, you know, I think that's really important, it's certainly very relevant today.

00:14:07:14 - 00:14:39:03 Jacquie There's lots of discussion about women and sports and and investing in women in sports and celebrating their successes. And we've put female athletes front and centre in our brand, marketing. We tell their stories. We tell their stories through our digital channels. And we've really seen female athletes become the face of of Team Canada and among other sport properties in Canada and, you know, importantly, when we talk about the business of sport, in the business of investing in women in sport, these women have signed lucrative sponsorship deals.

00:14:39:03 - 00:15:07:22 Jacquie This is a virtuous circle. So ultimately investing in women's sport drives on-field success, which drives viewership, inspiration, audience and drives participation. I'm inspired by these athletes. I start to participate. That drives brand value for these marketing partners that I'm talking about, which then leads back to partnership investment, which drives back to investing in women in sports. So we've really proven the model that by investing in women over the years,

00:15:07:22 - 00:15:27:15 Jacquie for Team Canada, it's absolutely driving results in all aspects of of the virtuous circle. So something to be proud of. and so, you know, we're doing women have done well. Men have done well as well. There's so many incredible athletes to get excited about for Paris and lots of good stories, you know. So it's it's hard to pick who to talk about.

00:15:27:15 - 00:15:46:12 Jacquie I'll highlight just a few that I'm excited to watch in Paris. So of course Summer McIntosh in the pool, Maggie MacNeil, Penny Oleksiak, Josh Lindo. So there's a tremendous amount of Team Canada strength in the pool this year. Women's three-on-three basketball. This is new to the games. And the Canadian team is number one in the world.

00:15:46:12 - 00:16:10:00 Jacquie I think right now. The NBA players are going to be dominating men's basketball. So that's definitely something exciting to watch. Breaking as they call it, which is breakdancing is new to the Paris Olympic Games. And Phil Wizard, a Canadian, is number one in the world right now. Skylar Park in tae kwon do. She's amazing to watch. Andre De Grasse is always a fan favourite, so can't wait to see him in the 100 metre.

00:16:10:02 - 00:16:20:04 Jacquie Melissa and Brandie in beach volleyball. So the list is long and we're looking super strong. And so I'm really, really excited about seeing the athletes perform in Paris.

00:16:20:06 - 00:16:39:17 Alison That's incredible. I did not know the women's stats from the last two games, and you and I have acted on a bunch of levels, including the powerful role in sport in our lives. And I certainly didn't have the number of female role models that Canada is producing today. And we think about the the short term and the long term positive ripples of that.

00:16:39:17 - 00:16:49:05 Alison It's incredibly inspiring. So thank you very much for sharing that. And I didn't realize breaking had made it into the Olympic sport. So you've giving me something else to tune in to to.

00:16:49:06 - 00:17:13:16 Jacquie Absolutely. And maybe I'll just touch a little bit on our marketing campaign while we're at it, because Phil Wizard is in our brand marketing campaign this year. So every Olympic Games year, the Canadian Olympic Committee launches a brand campaign. We do consider our job to to really be first in the market from a marketing perspective, set the stage for the narrative around the games that are upcoming so that our marketing partners, when they start to launch their campaigns, they don't have to do the heavy lifting.

00:17:13:16 - 00:17:34:11 Jacquie We've already set the stage. And so we did launch our campaign halfway through April. And, you'll see Phil Wizard in there, Skyler Park, as I mentioned. And our so our campaign this year is called Brave is Unbeatable. And ultimately it's a campaign about the obstacles that Team Canada athletes have to overcome to achieve  to achieve greatness.

00:17:34:11 - 00:18:06:08 Jacquie It's about the power of perseverance and commitment. It's about what's inside, and it's about what we don't see that pushes us past our limits towards success and glory. So this campaign showcases Team Canada athletes, all of the various obstacles that they've overcome. And it just really reminds Canadians, remind us, reminds us that we all have our own unique set of obstacles and circumstances and when we overcome them, we can really inspire that next generation and really tap into that sense of bravery.

00:18:06:10 - 00:18:29:12 Jacquie And so, interestingly enough, so we developed the campaign and we thought, wouldn't it be amazing to have voiceover talent of Canadians who, in fact, have also overcome their own obstacles? So we shot for the stars. And we asked Michael J. Fox to be the voiceover for the English campaign and Celine Dion to be the voice of our French campaign.

00:18:29:14 - 00:18:54:03 Jacquie And so lob some calls over and amazing to hear, proud to say, they donated their time to be the voice over talent on our advertising, on our brand campaign. So I think that just speaks to the power of Team Canada. and really just so proud to have that that tie back to, to Canadians to, to really represent that we all have obstacles in our lives and to just be inspired by Michael J.

00:18:54:03 - 00:18:59:09 Jacquie Fox and Celine, in addition to all the athletes, is a campaign we're really, really proud of.

00:18:59:11 - 00:19:05:02 Alison I didn't realize your voiceover talent. That is such a great addition to what will be a very, very powerful campaign.

00:19:05:07 - 00:19:06:21 Jacquie Yeah. Thank you.

00:19:06:23 - 00:19:24:09 Alison So, Jacquie, you have two distinct roles within the Canadian Olympic Organization. So as CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation, I'd love you to talk about how the dual role allows you to further advance the foundation's mandate and support Team Canada's success.

00:19:24:11 - 00:19:48:12 Jacquie Thank you for asking that question, because the Canadian Olympic Foundation also plays a very, very key role to your point around the success of the athletes. So the Canadian Olympic Foundation, our job is really we're the philanthropic arm of the Olympic Movement in Canada. So our job is to fundraise for the needs of Team Canada. So we work directly with the Canadian Olympic Committee.

00:19:48:15 - 00:20:11:11 Jacquie And I have two jobs, so I work for both. But ultimately our job is to work with them to understand where the funding requirements are. And then we go to the market and we fundraise. And so what's interesting to point out is the Canadian Olympic Foundation is really the opportunity for individual Canadians to get involved. So I mentioned before that marketing partners really drive the business of the Canadian Olympic Committee.

00:20:11:13 - 00:20:42:23 Jacquie While, individual Canadians, real nation builders, those are the people that drive investment in the Canadian Olympic Foundation because we have a joint purpose. We're trying to transform Canada through the power of sport, as I mentioned before, and we are the only foundation in Canada that raises funds to support athletes at all stages of their Olympic journey. And so by working in lockstep with the Canadian Olympic Committee, which is a pretty unique relationship, the way we work together in sport and philanthropy, we focus on four very distinct pillars.

00:20:42:23 - 00:21:01:12 Jacquie One of them is sport excellence. So it's all about ensuring that they have the funding and resources to excel in their sport. One's pathway development. So the pathway to the podium, there very, very many stages on the way there. And how can we help support that in terms of training, competition needs, next generation athletes who are looking for that kind of support.

00:21:01:17 - 00:21:08:17 Jacquie There's athlete and coach enhancements and then there's the Team Canada Impact agenda, which is our social impact platform.

00:21:08:18 - 00:21:22:00 Alison That's great. Now you mentioned the Team Canada Impact agenda. And I know it's a critical part of COC strategy. So I would love you to share more about the Social Impact program and how it comes to life for athletes, as well as for all Canadians.

00:21:22:02 - 00:21:51:09 Jacquie We've always been purpose-led, and we just saw an opportunity to really define that a little bit further and make sure that this investment I've been talking about, whether it be from partners or donors, work as efficiently and as hard as it can to drive impact. and so the Team Canada Impact agenda is our commitment to ensure a safe, inclusive and barrier -free sport system so that more young people play and stay in sport.

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:18:18 Jacquie Those two words are very intentional - play and stay. And I say that because it's important that as an organization, we can help inspire access to sport. There are communities that just simply don't have access. And then I say, remember, play and stay. Stay is another intentional word because sometimes young people have an opportunity to enter the sport system, but there are conditions in there that cause them to leave, or there are conditions financially that cause them to leave.

00:22:18:20 - 00:22:54:13 Jacquie So we really are making a commitment to make sure that, so we invest in this area. and so what that means is that we're really going to drill down and ensure that we're creating impact and measuring it. And there are three key areas in which we do that. And they are podium, play and planet. So from a podium perspective, ultimately this is making sure that we help athletes pursue their dreams through a safe, inclusive and barrier-free sports system and that that the podium represents Canadians, that it is diverse and representative of who we are as a nation.

00:22:54:15 - 00:23:16:23 Jacquie From a play perspective, this is very much about inspiring young people to play and stay, so it's about access and creating conditions so that young people want to stay in sport. And the last one is planet. There is no sport that is immune to climate change. And we really, really need to ensure that we're taking a leadership position to preserve our sporting environments.

00:23:17:00 - 00:23:38:21 Jacquie So that's what the Team Canada Impact Agenda is all about. It's about feeding the sport system and achieving impact, and it's about investing in the future of sport in Canada. And so that's what it's all about. It's really, it's it's a social impact agenda. But it's absolutely anchored in the strategy, the business strategy of the Canadian Olympic Committee overall.

00:23:38:21 - 00:23:53:09 Jacquie So you'll see a lot more investment in that area. And you'll see us reporting on results and and seeing how we're doing in terms of driving these results from a podium, play and planet perspective.

00:23:53:11 - 00:24:10:23 Alison That's outstanding. Jacquie, thank you so much for sharing all aspects of that and how it certainly fits within the overall strategy and is a great way to also get more to our country and the athletes. Now, there will be lots of Canadians joining you in Paris for the Games. and there will be lots of us who aren't able to join in person.

00:24:11:00 - 00:24:21:00 Alison So I would love to hear some ways that those of us that won't be enjoying the Games in person can really engage with Team Canada and help support our athletes during Paris.

00:24:21:02 - 00:24:40:15 Jacquie So we host Canada Olympic House in Paris and what that is, it's a home away from home for the athletes, and their families and Canadians and whoever else wants to join us. So the doors are open to the public. You know, there's viewing stations with CBC. We're partnering with CBC and Radio Canada in Canada Olympic House. They'll be live from there every single day.

00:24:40:17 - 00:25:00:00 Jacquie And so, you know, you can come to Canada Olympic House, you can enjoy some Canadian fare. You can engage with some of our marketing partner activations. You can meet some athletes, you can watch the games on TV. And so it's going to be quite, quite a unique experience. And then we have somewhere for athletes and their families to get together and really enjoy the Olympic moment.

00:25:00:01 - 00:25:24:02 Jacquie So that's Canada Olympic House, that's in Paris. Back here in Canada, lots going on? Again, make sure to tune in to CBC Radio-Canada to watch the Games. They're a very important partner of ours. Also wanted to mention Team Canada FanFest. This is new this year. We haven't done this before. But we will be hosting these events in Toronto, Calgary and Montreal rolling over three weekends.

00:25:24:04 - 00:25:45:12 Jacquie And really, Team Canada Fan Fest is about bringing fans together to cheer on Team Canada to celebrate the success of the athletes and create opportunities for connection in your community to to support. And then again, there's always lots of content to engage with, so you can follow Team Canada on social media. Again, please tune in to CBC and Radio-Canada,

00:25:45:12 - 00:26:20:16 Jacquie their coverage. You can engage by making a donation to the Canadian Olympic Foundation and there's lots of fan engagement opportunities through, checking out our channels for content around schedules and results and Athlete Profiles and deep dives into real time, reactionary content from the Games. We're on TikTok. We're on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, X, go to Olympic.ca. Download the Team Canada app for lots of lots of interactive opportunities and staying in touch with real time, real time results and then look out for the Brave is Unbeatable campaign.

00:26:20:16 - 00:26:42:21 Jacquie We're really, really proud of that. you'll see interactive ads, digital outdoor print and really hear firsthand from the athletes in terms of how their story is brave, is unbeatable. So and lastly, actually, we're launching a podcast, Team Canada podcast. It's called Momentum. And there you can learn about the stories of some of the women of Team Canada as they head to Paris and hear all about their journey there.

00:26:42:23 - 00:27:03:18 Alison Lots of ways to engage. I'll definitely be, participating in Fan Fest and really appreciate you sharing. And I love the new podcast. I'm a voracious podcast listener, so I will definitely be tuning into Momentum. Now to wrap up our discussion, I'd love to have you share one piece of advice for marketers who are really looking to build purpose-driven brands and create meaningful impact through sport.

00:27:03:20 - 00:27:25:05 Jacquie Thank you for that question. You know, I often get asked about advice for marketers and, look, I'm I'm super happy to share. I think you'll see a common thread as I've spoken about today, just really for me, it's it's proven very fruitful to just lean into your passion and your purpose. There are lots of opportunities out there.

00:27:25:06 - 00:27:45:16 Jacquie You just feel like you do a better job when you care, when you're passionate about it, and when you feel like you're making a difference. And I've been very fortunate to have every single job I've ever had, or I had that opportunity. And I'm really, really proud of that. And I think also, if you noticed in my thread, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

00:27:45:17 - 00:28:02:21 Jacquie I went to university, had a great time, taught skiing. That was fun too, but I just kept following my passion and I ended up where I ended up, you know? So not quite the straight path that other people are able to tap in right away. I just didn't know. And I just followed my passion. So I think that's important.

00:28:02:21 - 00:28:26:09 Jacquie I think I'd also say your career is very, very long and don't rush. Just take your time, find what matters to you. And then ultimately, we're all in this together. So be kind, be vulnerable, be curious about other people and the work you're doing. And I know that you'd be very, very proud of the impact you make if you approach your days from that perspective.

00:28:26:11 - 00:28:41:14 Alison That is such great advice. And when you think back to your opening, like being open to trying new things, betting on yourself. You wouldn't have discovered the career you had if you hadn't pursued your passion and then been open to and raising your hand to say sure I'll try that.

00:28:41:16 - 00:28:45:21 Jacquie Yeah. Well said Alison. Yeah. Thank you, thank you I really appreciate it. 

00:28:45:21 - 00:29:12:10 Alison Now Jacquie, you've been incredibly generous with your time. You've given us many, many ways to engage with the Paris Olympics and to really cheer on all of our athletes and looking forward to some great medal counts. Also really looking forward to seeing all of the amazing activations and marketing from the CoO, as well as all of your sponsors. You're collectively having an absolutely massive and positive impact on Canada as a country, and certainly Canada from an athletic point of view.

00:29:12:10 - 00:29:14:09 Alison So a sincere thank you.

00:29:14:11 - 00:29:23:06 Jacquie Thank you Alison, it's been my sincere pleasure and looking forward to engaging with Team Canada athletes on July 26th, when the opening ceremony begins.

00:29:23:08 - 00:29:25:23 Alison Perfect. I will be tuning in for that as well.

00:29:26:01 - 00:29:31:23 Jacquie Great. Thank you, Alison.

00:29:32:00 - 00:29:44:15 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes three members of the CMA's CX Council: Alessandra Bisaillon, Director of Marketing and Media Relations at Farm Boy Company Inc., Lesley Haibach EVP, Customer Experience at Ipsos Limited Partnership, and Sue Sharp, Partner and National Lead, Customer Experience Transformation & CMO Advisory at PwC Management Services LLP. Their discussion sheds light on how crucial and influential customer experience has become, why service design plays a critical part and the importance of understanding the customer journey.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:03 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:05 - 00:00:44:08 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's becoming increasingly critical for marketers. Customer experience or it's a continues to play a larger role in marketers scope of responsibilities. It is absolutely essential to understand the tools and frameworks that can help us excel in this area. And one such framework is service design, which we'll be talking a bit about today.

00:00:44:09 - 00:01:14:13 Alison So service design is a powerful approach that helps organizations systematically understand, align, and optimize their resources and processes to enhance both the employee as well as the customer experience. By leveraging service design principles, marketers can create more cohesive, meaningful, and memorable experiences that really drive brand loyalty and ultimately grow businesses. So, to help us navigate this topic, I have three members of our Canadian Marketing Association joining me today.

00:01:14:15 - 00:01:42:18 Alison Lesley Haibach is the EVP, Customer Experience Leader at Ipsos. Alessandra Bisaillon is the head of marketing and media relations at Farmboy Company, Inc., and Susan Sharp is a partner and national lead Customer Experience Transformation and the CMO advisory at PWC. They each bring a unique perspective and a wealth of expertise in both CX and service design. So today is absolutely going to be an illuminating and engaging conversation.

00:01:42:20 - 00:02:03:21 Alison Throughout the discussion, Lesley, Alessandra, and Susan are going to explore why marketing and CX are so tightly intertwined. We'll also talk about what sets organizations that excel at service design apart, and what marketers can do to start embedding service design as a capability within their teams and enterprises. So I'm thrilled to have three talented guests joining us today.

00:02:03:22 - 00:02:07:01 Alison So a big welcome to Lesley, Sue and Alessandra

00:02:07:03 - 00:02:08:11 Sue Thanks, Alison.

00:02:08:13 - 00:02:08:23 Lesley Thank you.

00:02:08:23 - 00:02:10:11 Alessandra Thank you.

00:02:10:13 - 00:02:21:12 Alison Now I want to kick things off by asking why our marketing and customer experience so tightly coupled. And how does service design play a role. Lesley why don't you kick us off?

00:02:21:14 - 00:02:57:08 Lesley Sure. That would be great. Thank you. Alison. And this is a very important question. In fact, I'm sure all three of us would strongly agree that CX is one of the most important considerations for an organization and that its importance is often underestimated. It's critical for organizations to understand why marketing and customer experience need to be so intertwined. What we're seeing is more and more consumers interactions with the brand are really driven by their own experiences, and not necessarily marketing initiatives or the advertising of that brand.

00:02:57:10 - 00:03:23:20 Lesley In fact, we know from our own Ipsos research that two thirds of consumers will select a brand based on the experiences they've had and nothing else. And that's almost twice the percentage of any other reason for interacting. Whether that's brand image, word of mouth, social media, and why that is is because customers create their own expectations for brand, and these expectations are based on their own experiences, the marketing they see,

00:03:23:22 - 00:03:49:04 Lesley the advertising from, things they've heard from their friends and family. However, when these customers actually interact with that brand, the experience delivered is either going to meet their expectations, it's going to exceed them, or it's going to fail to meet them. And if a customer's expectations are continually being unmet, their risk of turning to a different brand.

00:03:49:06 - 00:04:22:10 Lesley So often organizations, you know, we find do look at brand health and their marketing initiatives and customer experience metrics. But they often do this in isolation of one another. And we find that can be very misleading and really underscores the reason why organizations need to look at them together. And I give you an example of this. We did a study a few years ago in the grocery industry here in Canada, and we designed our study to look at both brand health metrics and key metrics.

00:04:22:12 - 00:04:51:17 Lesley When we initially started looking at this, if we looked at, let's say, two brands in particular, if we just looked at their brand metrics, we have a clear leader based on the amount market share, the attitudinal, equity, brand love all of these things that are important from a marketing perspective. But when we layered in the customer experience metrics, we quickly found that that leading brand was actually on a declining trajectory, and it was the number two brand that was actually in growth mode.

00:04:51:19 - 00:05:13:21 Lesley What was happening was brand number one wasn't delivering the experiences to the level of expectation of their customers. So despite their current market lead, the brand was heading towards a sharp decline. Whereas for the second brand, their experiences were meeting or exceeding expectations and we could see how they were very rapidly picking up market share and were growing.

00:05:13:23 - 00:05:42:23 Lesley So for the first brand, it was important for them to understand how to deliver experiences that would at least meet expectations of their customers. And this is really where service design comes into play. When an organization is not meeting their customers expectations. They need to take the time to evaluate and redesign those experiences so that they can continue to drive customer loyalty and maintain and grow their share of that.

00:05:43:01 - 00:05:59:18 Alison Let's say thank you very much for sharing that in the grocery example. Now, you and I are both have been doing this for a few decades now. So certainly early in my career, marketing and CX wasn't something we talked about a lot in marketing. And if it existed in the companies we were in, it certainly wasn't part of marketing.

00:05:59:18 - 00:06:08:12 Alison So I'd love to hear you share. Like, what do you think has brought those together and made CX a bigger priority for marketers today?

00:06:08:14 - 00:06:31:01 Lesley I think it really comes back to this example that we shared in the fact that if companies are finding this disconnect in their results based on their marketing, and I think as they start to connect the dots and go, well, wait a second, why is my marketing no longer being what's driving people in? And the fact that we now know it's their own experiences has forced a lot of work and ization to really say, you know what?

00:06:31:01 - 00:06:38:06 Lesley There's something here that's disconnecting, and we need to find a way to make sure we are meeting those expectations of our customers.

00:06:38:07 - 00:06:41:23 Alison In many ways, it's an early indicator, early warning system email.

00:06:41:23 - 00:07:09:07 Sue So add to that that you know traditionally is marketers. And then we'll talk more about this a little bit later. But traditionally as marketers we have always been how do we how do we drive demand. Right. And thinking about growth through demand and conversion. But lately and we all know with the economy the way it is, we've had to really kind of pivot into retention.

00:07:09:09 - 00:07:33:03 Sue Well, what does retention look like? Retention. There's a resounding element of customer experience through all of your retention capability. Right. So so it is really tightly coupled. And having it sit outside kind of as a standard or somewhere else in an organization, I think puts an organization more at risk. It really does become part of what marketers after.

00:07:33:05 - 00:07:44:15 Alison That's a great add on, Sue, thank you very much. Now I'd like to hear what are organizations that are really excelling at service design. What are they doing differently? Lesley, do you want to kick this off?

00:07:44:17 - 00:08:05:06 Lesley We found that when an organization is optimizing their experiences through service design, we found that they do kind of one of all of these five tips. And they may not realize they're doing these five things exactly the way that they are, but it really is the foundational pieces to making sure that everything comes together. So part of it is research, right?

00:08:05:07 - 00:08:25:14 Lesley Research has to do is to start with the research. But that research also has to evolve. So for example, in my grocery store example you needed a starting point. We needed to understand the circumstance of brand one and brand two. But as we try to redesign those experiences for brand one, you need to be able to have research to help you do that.

00:08:25:14 - 00:08:55:10 Lesley What's working, what's not. And then once you decide to implement whatever's the best solution, you need to continuously monitor that. That's the first one. Second one is alignment of your leadership. This needs to happen across all functions in an organization because we know that while experiences are truly delivered at the front line, if you don't have leadership alignment from the top down, anything new you try is not necessarily going to be successfully implemented and maintained.

00:08:55:12 - 00:09:19:17 Lesley And then there's the operationalization of all these experiences, because it's not enough for the leaders themselves to be aligned on the functions. Customer experience has to focus across all levels of the organization. So whether an organization does regular meetings, other initiatives, huddles, whatever it is, each part of the business has to be accountable for it to some degree and measured on that.

00:09:19:19 - 00:09:47:08 Lesley And we see this often a lot of resistance with organizations that say, but my back office doesn't deal with clients, not directly, perhaps, but they do have internal clients. And all of those things have an impact on your ultimate customer. So making sure the back office is considered as well is critical. And then measurement of ROI, right? If you're delivering the right experiences to your customers, you need to understand the ROI of doing that.

00:09:47:10 - 00:10:10:01 Lesley We like to call it an Ipsos proxy, a return on customer experience investment. But every function in the organization needs to have their own KPIs. And you need to be able to analyze these against CX. So looking at things like what's your return on investment when it comes to brand or NPS or basket size or traffic counts? All of these things can be impact by service delivery.

00:10:10:03 - 00:10:41:03 Lesley And the last one is about sustaining all of this across all functions, and knowing when it's time to step back and reevaluate or treat tweak experiences that you're delivering. And it doesn't matter the size of the organization, these principles can apply in all cases because most organizations have these functions across the business, and it's about creating a CX design and strategy that will go across the entire organization, whether there's 100 employees or 100,000.

00:10:41:05 - 00:10:43:19 Lesley And I think, Alessandra you had an example of this, right?

00:10:43:21 - 00:11:13:15 Alessandra Absolutely. Yeah. And in terms of one organization that we discussed that really delivers a consistent and positive experience, its customers is Starbucks. And they have truly mastered all five components of the service design framework, particularly when it comes to operationalizing the experience and also from a sustainability perspective. They also intentionally make the experience of their customers a personal one, whether it's with every order or every visit.

00:11:13:16 - 00:11:35:00 Alessandra And when you do visit a Starbucks, you know the staff is so knowledgeable about every coffee blend menu item. They truly are amazing in terms of executing the personalization of offers, which essentially they've also successfully done through their systems. And Lesley mentioned a little bit about, you know, the backstage, the back office. They do a really great job of that as well.

00:11:35:06 - 00:11:51:05 Alessandra And then of course, there's the data and research component. And, you know, leveraging insights and data to really bring that on to life. So we felt that this was a really good example of one organization that has truly mastered all five components of service design.

00:11:51:07 - 00:11:55:15 Alison Lesley, thank you very much for distilling it down to those five core principles and analysis.

00:11:55:15 - 00:12:15:05 Alison And to bring it to life with an example is great. And it's also a really good segue into the next piece that I want to dig in, which is around data, research and sustainability. So let's dive deeper into research measure and sustain. And why are these are critical ongoing aspects of service design and CX. Sue I'd love you to take the lead on this.

00:12:15:07 - 00:12:42:14 Sue Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. I think I'm going to start with a statement that when you think about research, measure and sustain, it's obviously not once and done, it's ongoing. If I start with research, you really need to think about gaining that deep understanding of the customer, your customer across channels, the customer's perception of your brand, their experience with it is critical.

00:12:42:14 - 00:13:12:21 Sue As Lesley pointed out earlier. The key here for us as marketers is to look at the end to end state of the client experience and understanding the highs and the lows of the interactions your client has, whether it's the online channel, the the mobile channel, or the in-person or, you know, your call center. You have to think about how that that customer is interacting with your front line or through the tools that you've enabled for self-service.

00:13:12:23 - 00:13:36:21 Sue And it's this core. It's really core to understanding and prioritizing what problems you need to solve to deliver on your vision. And I like to talk in problems we're solving because to me that's a need. It's a need based way to think about what you need to do to to enable a better customer experience. Just because it's cooling fancy doesn't mean you need to go and do it.

00:13:36:23 - 00:14:03:19 Sue So this understanding and the prioritization of what problems we're solving are will become your benchmark. And through sustain ultimately your guide. Now too often we see clients that they think they know their client experience. They don't want to do the research. They don't want to invest in that. They think that they can act as the client and give them give feedback.

00:14:03:21 - 00:14:30:03 Sue This is a trap that a lot of organizations fall into, and it really holds back the organization from from succeeding in CX and specifically in service design. So your research will help fuel your initiatives and true transforming. And it is the critical element in creating the alignment for your vision across your organization and for helping to sustain and evolve the vision.

00:14:30:05 - 00:15:00:18 Sue So those data points really, really hit home for executives across the board. In service design, we often talk about a service blueprint, the blueprint gives an organization a holistic view of what needs to happen to make your vision work. So we've talked a lot about kind of thinking across the business. And you think about the customer interaction, the middle office layer and interaction and process, the back office process and what technology we need to have in place to support it.

00:15:00:20 - 00:15:30:00 Sue It's a lot, but I think as marketers, we're good leaders, we're good collaborators, and we have a role to play in in this effort to really help drive change and growth through customer experience. So while we might be, as I said earlier, focus on the top of the funnel and demand generation or acquisition, but more and more of us have to start thinking about our efforts, about retention.

00:15:30:02 - 00:16:07:05 Sue So, as Lesley pointed out, it truly impacts customer retention and your brand. And thinking about that churn that happens when we get disappointed by a brand. I think there a research from Gartner saying 32% of people will leave a brand after two bad experiences. So that's truly impactful to if you're thinking about your retention. So we as marketers need to lead in advocating for customers throughout our organizations, representing their voice with our ongoing research and collaborating with our business partners to deliver growth.

00:16:07:07 - 00:16:36:16 Sue So that's kind of the core on the research. We talk about measurement. And and I think about measurement as a way to help prioritize initiatives and demonstrate the impact, of CX. So Lesley, you talked about Roxy. We call it return on experience at PWC, it's when we start to organizations start to achieve their CX vision. You can quickly realize there is a lot to be done.

00:16:36:18 - 00:17:02:01 Sue And just, you know, mentioning the research helps us understand and prioritize the problems we solve at solving. We have to break it down into what service design we call micro journeys. These micro journeys might be prioritized based on potential impact to customers, the impact to your business, and your ability to execute. So really kind of think through where should we be making these investments for change?

00:17:02:03 - 00:17:30:00 Sue The micro journey for each CX initiative. If you should be measuring the current state and then impact of the new or revised design. So you might be measuring or looking at your digital data. It might be saving time on a manual process versus an automated process. It might mean a reduction in errors. So this is really where you bring all of these elements together.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:55:07 Sue Front of the house, middle of house, back of the house to see how that change can actually impact your business over time. You use these measurements to test and learn and you refine your micro journey. And it's so important because understanding all these components will help demonstrate the impact of cost to the organization and leadership, and start to create some momentum.

00:17:55:09 - 00:18:20:20 Sue This is where sustain really comes in. Think about how you consistently research through voice of customer programs, taking learnings to not only improve on your CX, but also your operations, your products, and your services. This is key information that needs to be shared throughout the organization to enable change. And I think this is where marketers can really shine.

00:18:20:22 - 00:18:46:12 Alison Sue, thank you so much. You shared so much great advice. You also highlighted just because it's cool and shiny doesn't mean you need to do it. And then you also calling out the mission critical role that research can play in helping both understand and then prioritize. What are the problems we're solving? We're always challenge for where to make the investment from a marketing perspective, and that's a really important call out.

00:18:46:14 - 00:19:12:02 Alison And then you also acknowledging that as marketers, we're definitely good leaders or good collaborators. I would add to that we're great storytellers, so we're able to help the organizations understand why CX is such a mission critical. Part of what we're doing. So now, I would love to turn it over to you, Alessandra, to share how service design can help fuel alignment within organizations.

00:19:12:04 - 00:19:39:09 Alessandra That's a really great question, and thank you. Based on the five touchpoints that we discussed, I do believe that without alignment within your organization, the other pieces of the framework will fall apart. This is so critical. And we know that service design can help organizations achieve a best in class customer experience and their business objectives. However, CX is not the responsibility of just one.

00:19:39:09 - 00:20:17:00 Alessandra So function. And Lesley alluded to this at the beginning of our discussion. All departments across the organization really need to prioritize CX and be measured against it. as we discussed. And this really does require senior leadership alignment of all functions. So whether it's marketing, sales, finance, procurement, category management, operations, customer service or IT, the list goes on, all functions of the business really need to have CX as a key business priority, and they need to keep it aligned with constant focus.

00:20:17:02 - 00:20:37:23 Alessandra So I'll give an example. from a grocery industry perspective, at Farm Boy, we actually have a customer experience committee that consists of various leads from different functions. And really this is to ensure that CX is always top of mind. And at the end of the day, it truly is the heart of everything we do at Farm Boy.

00:20:38:01 - 00:21:00:10 Alessandra And a priority for all of our departments. So what we have our monthly CX meetings that actually take place whereby we discuss processes, procedures, all of that is reviewed, including any customer comments or feedback that comes in from our customer service department. So that as a as a committee, we can further understand, you know, what are the deficiencies?

00:21:00:10 - 00:21:29:02 Alessandra Are there gaps that need to be addressed? And oftentimes, even if they're not these monthly focused discussions, when we're reviewing procedures, they actually expose weak links and misalignment if there is. And that really allows the committee to also devise collaborative and cross-functional solutions. On the other hand, you know, if you take a larger enterprise like a bank, it's really important to think across the lines of business.

00:21:29:02 - 00:21:47:17 Alessandra So beyond just functions or departments in order to keep CX top of mind. So working horizontally across the organization. And so how would a large organization do that successfully while setting up a governance structure in a larger organization? That's obviously going to involve a lot.

00:21:47:17 - 00:21:48:04 Alessandra More team members

00:21:48:18 - 00:22:14:01 Alessandra and different lines of business. And that magnitude is going to vary by organization, but really setting up a disciplined cadence of whether it's CX meetings, ensuring that CX is layered into the businesses scorecard is so critical. We mentioned this earlier from a measurement perspective. You know, it's vital in order for the service design framework to be successful, that those KPIs are embedded.

00:22:14:03 - 00:22:25:00 Alessandra So for larger organizations, you may actually need both a working committee and a steer co to be set up for success and work horizontally across the organization.

00:22:25:02 - 00:22:38:07 Alison Thanks, Alessandra. Your found by example really is an illuminating one, and it's also a great way on a monthly basis to ensure that the customer voice is front and center, not just for marketing, but across the organization.

00:22:38:07 - 00:22:52:14 Alison So I really love that example. Now, Lesley, I'd love to turn it back to you to share what organizations should be considering when they're starting to embed service design as a capability, especially in larger enterprises.

00:22:52:16 - 00:23:24:03 Lesley Great. Thank you. Allison. It's a great question. But when you think about a larger organization, in particular an organization that has hundreds or thousands of locations, how can you actually guarantee a consistent experience at every touchpoint? So using service design, you can create customer centric journey maps. You can make sure that you improve all of your user experiences online and in mobile apps, and you need to be able to use it to think about an omnichannel experience versus what often is a multi-channel experience, right?

00:23:24:04 - 00:23:50:05 Lesley So you need that seamlessness across every touchpoint that a customer can interact with you. So these things can all help you to ensure you've got that consistency across all of your interactions. I want to kind of bring this to life with an example. We once had a client who, in their call center, used our service design approach to improve the experiences of their live agent interactions on their telephone banking center.

00:23:50:07 - 00:23:58:19 Lesley We started by identifying all of the pain points, and once we done that, as well as the ideal experience that their clients were looking for, we were able.

00:23:58:19 - 00:23:59:08 Sue To.

00:23:59:10 - 00:24:21:16 Lesley Help them create and develop the new way that the experiences should look. But there was more to it than that, because it's one thing to just say, we're going to redesign our experience, but what impact does that have on all other parts of the organization? So we had to include training to bring in, you know, new training documents of how the process was going to be designed and executed.

00:24:21:18 - 00:24:40:14 Lesley We had to bring in hiring teams to be able to say, how do you ensure that you're bringing new people into the company who can actually fulfill and deliver on those new experiences? And it meant that you also had to be able to redo all of your process maps and make sure that everyone was aligned in that consistent experience.

00:24:40:16 - 00:25:09:01 Lesley So all of these things just emphasize the point that, you know, making the service design encompass all of your functions within an organization is really critical to its success. And of course, though with larger organizations, it also means there are more people to impact greater complexity across all functions. So you have to have that right governance structure, and it has to be inclusive of all stakeholders across all business functions.

00:25:09:01 - 00:25:42:07 Lesley And Alessandra mentioned here. You know, some companies will have a governance structure that includes a steer co and a working committee. Those are some of the things you need to make sure you incorporate, to make sure that your experiences are seamless and that your decision making processes are also aligned and also seamless. So, you know, making sure that everyone in your organization has their eye on CX and the design of the experiences and services will lead to improved customer loyalty and just overall better business success.

00:25:42:09 - 00:26:05:23 Alison Sue. Lesley and Alessandra, I really want to thank you. This has been a very robust and very action oriented conversation around CX, so marketers, regardless of where they are in their journey in embedding CX into their marketing work. We'll actually have some really great takeaways. Before I let you go on with your workdays. You each have really terrific and varied experience and certainly enviable careers.

00:26:06:01 - 00:26:14:02 Alison So I'd love to close off our discussion by having each of you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners. And, Alessandra, I'd love you to kick us off.

00:26:14:04 - 00:26:30:11 Alessandra Sure. One piece of advice I'd like to give is, is for marketers to always remain curious and not be afraid to really test and learn new tactics with your teams or with your agency partners in order to ensure that you're really providing that exceptional experience for your customers.

00:26:30:11 - 00:26:59:14 Alessandra Each and every time, it's that consistency that is key that we talked about, especially because the landscape of marketing and retail overall is changing so rapidly. We need to continue to evolve. We have to stay relevant and test and learn. And you know, you may not always get it right. And that's okay. But the learnings and the rewards that actually come out of innovative pilots through testing and learning can oftentimes result in significant returns for organizations.

00:26:59:16 - 00:27:05:20 Alessandra And at the same time, you're successfully fostering innovation and creativity for your marketing team.

00:27:05:22 - 00:27:07:20 Alison Thanks. I'm going to turn it over to Lesley.

00:27:07:22 - 00:27:35:14 Lesley So I think we see our world rapidly changing with new technology and AI, but even though that despite that change, some things are just going to remain the same. We can't, as part of that, forget human intelligence. Customers want us to provide experiences that they can trust. They want to feel they're valued, and they want to feel that both the organization and its employees empathize with their unique circumstances.

00:27:35:15 - 00:27:50:22 Lesley And so how we can show that we value those customers, how we build trust and how we show our empathetic human side might change with technology. The need for these things is going to remain.

00:27:51:00 - 00:28:02:12 Alison You're absolutely right there. The fundamentals of what we do aren't changing, but the how we do them certainly is evolving. And that's terrific advice. So Sue, I'm going to hand it over to you to close our discussion today.

00:28:02:14 - 00:28:29:08 Sue Absolutely. Thanks. So I mean, a large part of this has been focus on service design. And when you think about that, it's about creating exceptional customer experiences by improving both tangible and intangible services. And it could be interactions processes, communications. And when you think kind of underneath that, it aligns with what we would call user centered design or user centric thinking.

00:28:29:10 - 00:29:00:07 Sue and aims to enhance both your customer satisfaction and your business outcomes. So my I have three points. So point number one to that end is really involve user throughout the process. If you're jumping into service design. And frankly kind of what Alessandra was saying is be curious about your customers throughout any process. Meet real world needs and expectations of your customers and your frontline staff.

00:29:00:10 - 00:29:27:12 Sue Engage with them. Learn from them, and really ask a lot of questions. But don't just ask them once. Ask them throughout your design process. Second point is really collaborate. Collaborate. Collaborate. We mentioned it earlier. Service design can't be done in one functional area alone. It takes a village lead from the customer's viewpoint and share your insights. I think marketing's really positioned well to do that.

00:29:27:14 - 00:30:01:22 Sue And then lastly finally is start small but think big. Start with a pilot project or specific touchpoints and gradually with successful Roxy or rocks in hand, expand to larger service improvements. And this will help you to minimize risk as you start out your journey and also to to start building momentum. And I think, you know, to your point early around the Starbucks journey into personalization, they started small and they grew and scaled.

00:30:02:00 - 00:30:06:14 Sue And that's I think ultimately where we want to go. But you got to start small.

00:30:06:16 - 00:30:22:14 Alison That is absolutely terrific advice from the three of you to end on. And our listeners, if they take that and start actioning it in the days and months ahead, they will absolutely get even stronger at their craft. So many thanks to the three of you for a really robust and terrific discussion.

00:30:22:16 - 00:30:24:07 Sue Thank you for having us. Yes.

00:30:24:07 - 00:30:24:16 Lesley Thank you.

00:30:24:17 - 00:30:31:07 Alessandra Thank you for having us.

00:30:31:09 - 00:30:43:22 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, explores balancing brand building and performance marketing with Vivianne Gauci, SVP of Consumer Experience and CMO at HomeEquity Bank. Vivianne advocates for the importance of data-driven decision-making and collaboration between brand and performance marketers to appreciate each other's value in the customer journey.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:13 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.

00:00:14:15 - 00:00:22:12 Presenter With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:14 - 00:00:45:18 Alison In today's episode, we're tackling one of the most significant challenges that's facing marketers today. Finding the optimal balance between brand building and performance marketing. It's definitely been a debate that's been going on for many, many years with passionate advocates on both sides. But what if the answer lies not in choosing one over the other, but really and strategically blending the two?

00:00:45:20 - 00:01:05:22 Alison Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to have Vivianne Gauci join us for an insightful conversation around finding the right balance between brand building and performance marketing. Vivianne is a Senior Vice President of Consumer Experience and Chief Marketing Officer at Home Equity Bank, where she's been leading the charge in driving business growth through a strategic blend of brand and performance marketing initiatives.

00:01:06:00 - 00:01:27:06 Alison So Vivianne is going to bring you some very real world advice and some lessons from going through the journey herself. Vivianne's worked with two global and Canadian brands, including American Express, Aviva and now Home Equity Bank. So she's bringing a wealth of knowledge and a unique perspective to the table. She's also really known for her data-driven approach,

00:01:27:10 - 00:01:35:16 Alison her ability to rally teams around a common vision and her unwavering focus on the customer experience. Welcome, Vivianne. I'm thrilled that you're here.

00:01:35:18 - 00:01:39:00 Vivianne Thanks for having me, Alison. I'm so excited to be here.

00:01:39:02 - 00:01:49:12 Alison I want to kick things off now with the question around, why, in your mind, has the balance between brand and performance marketing been a persistent pain point for marketers?

00:01:49:14 - 00:02:26:22 Vivianne This is such an interesting question, and I think it's because there is no right answer in terms of what the right balance is. Because there's incredible value to both, and the right balance can be different depending on the industry, on the company objectives, on the stage of growth of your company. And so if you talk to different types of marketers, you'll get different perspectives on the value of their particular discipline and the challenges inherent with the other type of discipline.

00:02:26:23 - 00:02:50:06 Vivianne So if you speak to a brand marketer, they might believe that short-term activation performance-based marketing can be a bad thing that erodes brand equity. Or it can even erode margins. And then if you talk to performance-based marketers, you'll find that they sometimes think that, you know, I can't draw the direct line between brand and results.

00:02:50:06 - 00:03:07:08 Vivianne And, you know, that's what I'm used to. And as so often happens in these types of debates, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, in that there's value to both, and both short term and longer term marketing is important.

00:03:07:10 - 00:03:29:19 Alison That's such a great perspective and you're so right that there's value in both. But if you've grown up in one side or the other, it tends to actually feed the combativeness or the commitment to either brand or performance marketing. And in my experience, and often it's because if they don't have experience doing the other thing, they don't appreciate what it can deliver on how the two can necessarily work together.

00:03:29:21 - 00:03:55:17 Vivianne And, you know, for us, I think part of it is having these two types of marketers working closely together so that they can actually start to see the value in each other's practices. In fact, in one role in particular in my organization, and this is somebody who deals with communications and television as a channel specifically, they do both brand and performance.

00:03:55:19 - 00:04:19:04 Vivianne So, you know, they really get an appreciation for the value of both. But what you end up seeing is that the closer they work together, the more they understand the value in how they interact as part of the customer journey and as part of the funnel. So they actually start to see, oh, okay, so brand creates this emotional connection and creates this affinity.

00:04:19:06 - 00:04:50:12 Vivianne And then the performance marketer picks that up and picks up at that point in the journey and starts driving the customer touchpoint and driving immediate action. So you see the brand marketer triggers the emotional response, and the performance marketer triggers the action. They're both incredibly important because they're part of a continuous journey. So if you can get them working closely together, they'll understand the value of each discipline.

00:04:50:13 - 00:05:15:04 Alison I love that example in seeing the light bulbs go off from where people that are representing different points of view, and instead of feeling like they're competing for the marketing dollars, really starting to collaborate and understand that they're complementing one another and that can build to a much greater outcome than doing it just one way. So as a CMO, how do you ensure that your marketing efforts are directly contributing to the overall growth of your business?

00:05:15:06 - 00:05:38:22 Vivianne I see everything about my job as driving the overall growth of the business. And really, the first point is to understand the customer better than anyone else around the table and providing the insight that is needed to speak to them and ensuring that we're driving value to the customer. Because without starting, without driving value to the customer, you really don't have a business.

00:05:39:00 - 00:05:45:13 Vivianne So that's the first point. That's a key power, superpower, shall we say, of the of the Chief Marketing Officer.

00:05:45:15 - 00:06:06:07 Alison I totally agree that that's actually one of our superpowers. And it sounds so simple when you say it, but it can be harder to bring it to life. So as you're sitting around your executive table, really understanding your consumer to a greater degree than your colleagues possibly can, I'd love you to share a couple of examples of how you've helped them,

00:06:06:13 - 00:06:21:22 Alison the lights go off for them and the value that you can bring, whether it's on the product side or the bank delivery side, or even on the HR side, by  really understanding and enlightening them with knowledge of who you're ultimately trying to attract and retain.

00:06:22:00 - 00:06:48:03 Vivianne So I saw that you, and I heard with great interest, the fact that you interviewed Raja Rajamannar from Mastercard a little while ago. And I love his point. He talks about the CMO as having to evangelize for marketing and drive credibility for the function in the organization. And really, it comes down to the ability for a marketer to use data.

00:06:48:05 - 00:07:21:10 Vivianne Data is going to be your best friend. In performance, it will give you the ability to drive the additional investment warranted. Your'll be able to prove your ability to drive performance, obviously, and then a brand, you'll use it to be able to determine what your brand activities drive in terms of behaviours. And so once you start making the connection between this brand activity drives this type of behaviour, you then have to be disciplined about tracking and presenting the data to your senior stakeholders.

00:07:21:12 - 00:07:48:16 Vivianne So really it's about making sure that data is pulled in to be able to support what you're trying to drive in terms of the overall growth of the organization. And then I guess the other key piece in here is the part where we talk about customer experience. And for me, I love the fact that our organization, customer experience falls under the umbrella of marketing.

00:07:48:18 - 00:08:23:07 Vivianne Because when you think about it, customer experience has three key elements. I like to think of it as discovery, design, and delivery. And in discovery, you're listening to your customer and understanding them deeply. Again, back to the CMO superpower of understanding the customer better than anyone else. What needs are not being met? How does the brand resonate? And so you really have this incredible power, being integral or having the customer experience side of the equation under your wings to make sure that you can understand that very deeply.

00:08:23:09 - 00:08:46:13 Vivianne And then the elements of design and delivery is important because you can build an incredible marketing program, but if you can't deliver on the customer side of the equation, then you can waste a lot of resources. And you have to understand the journey that customers are taking. And it starts with their first interaction with the brand. It doesn't start necessarily, even on your website.

00:08:46:13 - 00:09:13:18 Vivianne It starts with potentially something that they see out in the market in terms of a brand ad and then the next touchpoint might be a piece of your performance marketing, and then they start to engage with you in the organization. And so what happens there? Maybe there's a nurturing experience and then fulfillment and loyalty. So if you start to see that it's all part of the funnel, you can see how also the elements are so integrated.

00:09:13:19 - 00:09:39:13 Alison I really like how you distilled it down to discover, design and deliver. It really helps keep you grounded as you're immersed in all aspects of that. So, Vivianne, I'd love to hear about your experience advocating for brand investment at Home Equity Bank and to walk us through that journey. I know from our earlier discussion it wasn't quick, as these things tend not to be, and there are inevitable sort of pivots and bumps along the road.

00:09:39:19 - 00:09:57:10 Alison But to really understand how you got your own team on board, what were some of the challenges that you faced when making the case to the executive leadership team? And you also were doing this in a time where the economy was a little bit challenged, which would have added a whole other level of difficulty, I suspect, to what you successfully delivered.

00:09:57:12 - 00:10:22:12 Vivianne Getting, you asked about the team, and getting the team on board was probably the easiest thing, the immediate team, because when you're predominantly a performance-based marketing organization, as we used to be, you know, you can actually start to see and feel where your performance marketing starts to get a bit sluggish. And you start to immediately think, oh, I've got to start thinking longer term, I, I have to start thinking, fill the top of that funnel.

00:10:22:14 - 00:10:52:07 Vivianne So, you know, that's an interesting part of the equation because as performance marketers, you're seeing that very immediately and you're measuring that. You're seeing very quickly that you need to start thinking differently. And we didn't have it quite then yet. But we were also thinking, okay. And down the line we might have potential competitors. And so how do you start creating that moat to help protect us against any potential incursions?

00:10:52:09 - 00:11:15:04 Vivianne So from there, you know, the good news was that there was broad recognition that thinking about brand would be good for the company, that we needed a bit of a refresh and we needed to think longer term. So that helped. But, you know, I won't lie. We, we stumbled when we came out with our new brand. We shortchanged ourselves a bit.

00:11:15:06 - 00:11:39:13 Vivianne And so to create the splash that we wanted in brand, we slowed down on our performance investment. And this actually hurt us. And so we we actually had to retrench. So we had a bit of a learning, learning exercise. We took a pause. We got everything back to where it needed to be. And then we said, okay, let's explore what happened, because this is a learning, right.

00:11:39:14 - 00:12:10:00 Vivianne So we we went in and we started analyzing all the data. And this is where I found what I considered to be another one of our marketing heroes, which is Binet and Field. The Long and the Short Of It. It's a famous study, and I was able to use that to help illustrate what actually happened to us. And that, yes, we had some short term negative impacts which, believe it or not, actually helped solidify our performance marketing investment because I was like, okay, we can't do that again.

00:12:10:01 - 00:12:27:23 Vivianne I said, no, we can't do that again. But because of the analysis and we were able to kind of isolate, this is what happened when we were, you know, primarily brand. And this is what happens when we have a combination. And this is what happens when we are only performance. I was able to show them some of the green shoots.

00:12:27:23 - 00:12:56:01 Vivianne Of course, brand takes longer, but I was able to show some of the green shoots of where brand was starting to help us make a difference, both qualitatively and quantitatively. So,  and again, it's back to those the, you know, thinking about what are the key metrics that brand investment helps to drive that aren't necessarily, you know, fully fleshed out and tied to the end result, but they are critical to starting getting the funnel going.

00:12:56:03 - 00:13:16:09 Vivianne And so I showed research that just talked not about just sales results, but also about the company values, the other thing that I would say. So I tried to elevate the discussion that it wasn't just about our short term results, it was about some longer medium term results. And then I elevated it even further to talk about the overall value to the company

00:13:16:09 - 00:13:31:03 Vivianne as a company. So the fact that brand investment could actually drive company value, and that's where I think it started to really resonate. So I think that third element of bringing it up to a higher level also helped.

00:13:31:05 - 00:13:51:11 Alison Thank you for being so open and sharing some of the challenges that you managed through in a time like that, especially in an organization that had really depend depending on performance marketing and you were driving change to also bring brand to it, knowing the long term benefits of that, for sure, when it doesn't work fresh out of the gate, it certainly test your resolve.

00:13:51:11 - 00:14:13:12 Alison I loved how you sort of retrenched and pivoted and used research and data, and also your knowledge around the green sprouts. Like you did see some early wins and some reasons to believe and stay committed to it. But clearly you leveraged very powerfully in convincing the rest of the organization. So kudos to you, because I know that's definitely not easy work.

00:14:13:14 - 00:14:30:06 Alison Now, speaking of challenges, I also know that the pandemic forced many marketing plans to change course and you were not immune. So can you share an example of how you had to adapt your brand messaging in response to how Canadian consumer needs were changing, and as well as their sentiments during that time.

00:14:30:08 - 00:14:54:16 Vivianne We'd probably been less than a year into our renewed level of brand investment after I had to make the case to get that brand investment back and and all of a sudden, March 2020 hit. And so we were at the time, we were showing an ad. It was our, I call it the sprinkler ad that for those of you who aren't familiar, this is for our product, the CHIP Reverse Mortgage.

00:14:54:18 - 00:15:16:19 Vivianne But it was a brand ad, and it was one of the ads that showed a real estate agent coming to a couple in our demographic that we like to say age 55 and better. And, you know, it was, you know, she was coming knocking once again to see if they were ready to sell their home. And so the wife says, oh, boy, here comes that real estate agent again.

00:15:16:19 - 00:15:43:15 Vivianne And husband says, don't worry, I got this. And you know, he basically clicks on a clicker and it turns on the sprinklers and he soaks the real estate agent. And so the couple has a chuckle and, and it's you know, it's all in great fun. And up until that time, and it was it's funny, that ad resonated so well because usually our audience in other ads, not ours, but in other ads in the media, we did a study.

00:15:43:17 - 00:16:07:17 Vivianne What we saw was our audience, our our demographic of age 55 and better is often the butt of the jokes, is often the target of the jokes. Right? And believe it or not, you know, they're treated in a very patronizing way. They're minimized. And in this case, they were the ones in, in on the joke. Right? They were making the joke.

00:16:07:17 - 00:16:30:05 Vivianne So so that, you know, that was really empowering and resonated so well with our audience. And we got like, maybe 1 or 2 complaints from real estate agents when we first aired the ad and, you know, we said, okay, well, we understand, you know, we get it. The joke was on them, but then all of a sudden, the pandemic hit and everyone was locked down at home.

00:16:30:11 - 00:16:55:06 Vivianne Everyone was feeling a little bit more sensitive, anxious and, you know, some very real emotions close to the surface. And now all of a sudden, we started getting complaints from our customers. And, you know, that maybe, maybe we were being a bit mean to the poor real estate agent. And so we realized, okay, you know, and again, another great reason why it's good to have CX close to the organization.

00:16:55:06 - 00:17:19:03 Vivianne We were hearing this directly from our contact centre, which reported to me. And, you know, we said, okay, maybe it's time we have to stop these ads and pivot. And when we did that, we went to our agency, Zulu Alpha Kilo. And they were able to help us pivot quite quickly with some user-generated content around the theme of, you know, very relevant at the time,

00:17:19:03 - 00:17:37:18 Vivianne Home is Everything. Because everybody was at home at the time and it was, you know, we were able to get those ads out in record time and those tested incredibly well and did really well for us as well, because it was the right message for the time. And people were were happy to hear it.

00:17:37:20 - 00:18:00:00 Alison Vivianne, that's a great example. It's also a great example of how quickly consumer sentiment can change certainly when there's a compelling event like a pandemic, and the way that you were able to once again pivot and really draw on an insight that was also a result of the pandemic where Home is Everything so quickly, really is powerful. I also have to say, I love that - 55 and better.

00:18:00:05 - 00:18:04:02 Alison I'm gonna definitely be using that.

00:18:04:04 - 00:18:08:06 Vivianne We get we get a lot of, compliments on that, actually.

00:18:08:08 - 00:18:11:18 Alison It's very true. That's a mindset we should all embrace.

00:18:11:20 - 00:18:13:02 Vivianne Absolutely.

00:18:13:04 - 00:18:30:18 Alison So how important is it to have the CEO's buy in on marketing as being a key driver of business strategy, and as someone with a performance marketing background, how did you go about establishing trust and credibility with the C-suite before advocating for the brand investments that you were able to successfully sell through.

00:18:30:20 - 00:19:03:18 Vivianne Getting the CEO on board is everything. There was actually a recent McKinsey study that said that CEOs who place marketing at the core of their growth strategies are twice as likely as their peers to have greater than 5% annual growth. So you can see that making sure that marketing is at the core of the strategy for the CEO, that it's important for driving results for the organization.  But it's our responsibility as marketers, as a CMO, to get the CEO on board.

00:19:03:20 - 00:19:29:03 Vivianne So I was very fortunate to have both an existing CEO and a CFO who had believed in the power of effective marketing, and it really just started with showing the discipline we had with our performance investments and being able to show consistently over time that our investments were driving results. And we actually have a new incoming CEO, just announced,

00:19:29:05 - 00:19:58:02 Vivianne And we we recently took her through all of the work that we've been doing. But my biggest section by far was on measuring and driving performance across all of our areas, not just performance marketing. So how do we measure and drive performance on brand, on PR, on all of our CX work? All of that was included, and it's important because it's a key to driving credibility.

00:19:58:03 - 00:20:20:08 Vivianne So that's where it starts. But then you also have to show alignment to this, you know, how does marketing align to the strategic priorities of the company, you know, show that you're an insights engine. Because by showing that you're an insights engine, again, you can demonstrate your your super power as a CMO that, you know, you can help drive decision-making.

00:20:20:08 - 00:20:49:22 Vivianne You can help also empower and facilitate decision-making throughout the organization. And then also showing how you're empowering others in the organization is also key and then also showing how you drive critical project impact. But I think it all starts with showing how disciplined you are. Goes back to the the data- centricity and showing how your how you can actually drive performance in the organization, how you have and how you continue to do so.

00:20:50:00 - 00:21:13:06 Alison I'm in such passionate agreement with you. It really is. It builds credibility and speaking the language of business, is also speaking the language of the CEO and CFO. And when they have the confidence that marketers are there to successfully build their business and help them achieve their goals, it becomes a fundamentally different conversation. So what advice do you have for marketers on communicating and influencing across the organization?

00:21:13:06 - 00:21:15:19 Alison That's clearly something that you do well.

00:21:15:21 - 00:21:47:11 Vivianne For me, it goes back to data. We have so much data. We have data about the customer. We have data about the funnel, data about the market. So part of it and goes back to what we talked about earlier about the CMO as evangelist. But part of that role means you're also there to help your colleagues better understand their own points of leverage and where they can drive value through those points of leverage so that you can help them in turn be more successful.

00:21:47:14 - 00:22:13:10 Vivianne So building excellent partnerships with sales, with individuals in operations across the organization, really to make sure that you can work together to to drive ultimate success for the organization. And then, you know, just make sure you're showing how you're not only being a good steward of resources, but you're helping to drive impact to strategic projects across the organization.

00:22:13:12 - 00:22:33:02 Vivianne And how you connect to the overall strategy of the company and how you drive growth. I think that those are important, but I think it really starts with what's in it for them and what you bring to the table. It's again insights and data that that can help them make better decisions and help them drive their own success.

00:22:33:04 - 00:22:41:20 Alison Vivianne, you've got an absolutely enviable career. So I want to close off our discussion by having you share one piece of advice that you would give our listeners.

00:22:41:22 - 00:23:07:00 Vivianne You know, I was thinking about this question because I know you ask it and, you know, I tossed between two key skill sets that are critical for any marketer to develop. And the first is obviously leadership, because even even as a young marketer starting out, you're always leading teams in some way, shape or form, even if it's just leading your agency to help deliver excellent creative.

00:23:07:02 - 00:23:42:08 Vivianne But I think the number one most important thing for anybody in marketing is to develop their communication skills. Because it's the ability to do this work that we talked about in terms of being able to communicate compelling value and communicate in a way that gets people to move and move to action. And being able to do that by appealing not just to their minds, but also to their hearts, because we know that in any type of decision-making, there's always both the heart and mind equation that's involved.

00:23:42:10 - 00:23:59:15 Vivianne So I think being able to develop that skill set where you become not just really good at it, but also very comfortable at it, and I think it's a lifelong endeavour to get there. But I think being able to develop that skill set is is probably one of the most important ones for any marketer.

00:23:59:17 - 00:24:14:01 Alison That's great advice, Vivianne, I really want to thank you for joining us today and for really giving us very actionable advice and for being very open and sharing the journey that you've led and led very successfully. So it's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

00:24:14:03 - 00:24:21:05 Vivianne Thank you, Alison, for having me. It's a pleasure being here.

00:24:21:07 - 00:24:33:20 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, hosts Shelley Brown, Chief Strategy Officer at FCB Canada and a judge at the 2024 Cannes Lions Festival. Shelley shares her insights on emerging trends, the crucial link between creativity and effectiveness, and the evolving role of strategy in award-winning work based on her experience judging the Direct category at this year's festival.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:20 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:22 - 00:00:49:07 Alison In today's episode, I'm thrilled to give you an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at what it's like to be a judge at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, focusing on the strategic aspect of award winning work today. Our guest is Shelley Brown, the highly accomplished Chief Strategy Officer at FCB Canada. Shelley's's advertising career includes award winning work with leading multinationals including BBDO and now FCB, as well as top independents.

00:00:49:09 - 00:01:12:19   Alison One fun and somewhat concerning fact about Shelley is that she was once held by a member of the Khmer Rouge with a rocket launcher. Seriously. Shelley was selected to judge the Direct category at this year's Cannes Lions with an enviable career and strategic mindset that's contributed to many creative awards. I'm really excited to have Shelley guide us through the inner workings of judging her festival.

00:01:12:21 - 00:01:43:07 Alison Throughout our discussion today, we'll explore Shelley's personal experience with Cannes Lions, from her first time attending to what inspired her to become a judge this year. We're also diving into the essential role that strategy plays in creating winning campaigns and discussing the relationship between strategy and creativity, and how it's changed over the years. Shelley is also going to share her thoughts on how the Cannes Lions Festival itself is evolving to mirror the shifts in our industry and then move towards more business-focused, result-driven work, something that's a passion for both of us.

00:01:43:09 - 00:01:56:06 Alison We're also going to discuss the crucial connection between creativity, effectiveness and award winning work, exploring how agencies and brands can better demonstrate and communicate the business impact of our creative efforts. So welcome, Shelley.

00:01:56:08 - 00:01:57:11 Shelley Thank you.

00:01:57:12 - 00:02:05:12 Alison Now, before we chat about judging at Cannes, our listeners absolutely won't forgive me if I don't start by getting the story about the Khmer Rouge.

00:02:05:14 - 00:02:32:06 Shelley Okay. All right. We'll get that one out of the way. In 1993, my husband and I were traveling in Cambodia, which was in 1993, probably a pretty crazy thing to do. The UN was nominally in control of most of the country, but the Khmer Rouge were still active in certain parts of the country. But we were absolutely determined to go and see Angkor Wat, which once we finally got there, we definitely had to ourselves.

00:02:32:08 - 00:02:54:18 Shelley The monks were still burning the jungle back around the ruins so that you could see the temples. It was pretty amazing. But one day we were off to see another temple a little bit further away, and we were not aware that the front line had moved during the night. And so we actually crossed into what was that day Khmer Rouge territory.

00:02:54:20 - 00:03:21:02 Shelley But we figured it out when what I thought was a kid, he might have been 17, jumped out of the jungle into the road, which was, you know, there were bomb craters and it was a bit of a mess. We were in a 4x4 with an armed guard and driver and a police officer accompanying us. Anyway, he pointed the rocket launcher at the car and, you know, our trusty police officer, armed guard and guide, they all just froze

00:03:21:04 - 00:03:56:00 Shelley And just sat there. And eventually the kid with the rocket launcher approached the car and I figured, okay, I have no idea what to do. Didn't speak enough Khmer to really be able to communicate. And so I just started grabbing handfuls of money out of my money belt and threw them through the window at his feet. And when he was satisfied that the pile of money was large enough, he just made a "okay" gesture with his hands and, picked up the money and walked away.

In this episode of CMA Connect, the CMA's CEO, Alison Simpson, sits down with Stephanie Yung, Chief Design Officer at Zulu Alpha Kilo. As a judge at the prestigious 2024 Cannes Lions, Stephanie shares her unique insights on the emerging themes in the creative industry, her experience reviewing groundbreaking work from around the globe and her predictions for the future of creativity.

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:21:13 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:21:15 - 00:00:47:20 Alison In today's episode, I'm thrilled to bring you an inside look of what it's like to be a judge in the prestigious Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Joining us is the incredibly talented Stephanie Yung, a true creative powerhouse and also the chief design officer for Zulu Alpha Kilo. As a globally recognized design leader, - Stephanie has extensive experience in the strategic translation of brands into new product services and experience.

00:00:47:22 - 00:01:20:04 Alison She's often sought out for her ability to establish brand visions for the future, and she has advised and collaborated with audiences ranging from the most recognized brands in the world to brand new startups, and from venture capitalists to nonprofit organizations. So she has a very diverse view and expertise that we are sure to benefit from today. Over the years, Stephanie's work has been recognized at every major award show, including DNAD, Cannes, The One Show, Fast Company's Innovation by Design and in fact, she has won eight Cannes Lions.

00:01:20:06 - 00:01:38:20 Alison So with that pedigree, it's definitely not surprising that Stephanie was selected as a judge for the industry craft category at this year's Cannes Lions Awards. Stephanie is bringing a wealth of knowledge and insights to our audience today, from her early days as a young creative winning her very first Lion to now being on the other side of the judging table.

00:01:39:02 - 00:01:59:16 Alison Stephanie's journey is definitely inspiring. So in this episode, we're diving deep into the Cannes Lion judging process and what it's like to review and discuss work from around the world. Stephanie will also share her early observations on trends and themes that she's noticed in the entries, and how the experience has really made her feel about the future of creativity in our industry.

00:01:59:18 - 00:02:02:07 Alison So with that, a very warm welcome to Stephanie.

00:02:02:09 - 00:02:03:23 Stephanie Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:15:18 Alison So, Stephanie, many creatives and marketers absolutely dream about winning a Cannes Lion. And I'd like to start by having you share what your very first experience was like winning a Lion and attending Cannes.

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:37:12 Stephanie Yes. I mean, it was, gosh, I'm going to date myself, but I think it was over 15 years ago, around, and so, you know, just where I was in my career is definitely the early days. And I was the senior designer. I mean, from that point of view, I feel like winning Cannes obviously is just such an honour, but really the ability to attend.

00:02:37:12 - 00:02:58:19 Stephanie I think what it did, especially where I was in that point in my career, really expanded my aperture I'd say, just in terms of what creativity could do and the impact of it, as well as I'd say from the point of view of Canadians, Canadians being right up there, being able to set the benchmark with just the rest of the world or for the world.

00:02:58:21 - 00:03:19:07 Stephanie And I feel like it really informed me in the sense that I don't know if I would have ever gone to New York,  because I did work there for over decades, because it's just the idea of like the possibilities. That's what it really did for me. And, you know, also obviously reinforcing that creativity really can impact business and people's lives.

00:03:19:09 - 00:03:46:19 Alison That's such a great perspective. And often in Canada, we can be a little too humble about our capabilities and our talent. So to see how we really stack up and are outperforming our country's reputation on the global stage for creativity. I love the fact that that led to you taking a very different direction in your career and realizing that you could absolutely compete and succeed and thrive in New York City and some of the best advertising destinations in the world.

00:03:46:19 - 00:03:52:18 Alison So that's a great to learning to come back with, and the fact that you brought back a Lion certainly doesn't hurt either.

00:03:52:20 - 00:03:53:03 Stephanie Yeah, that's true.

00:03:53:03 - 00:04:17:08 Alison When I think about how our country has progressed in the 15 years since I was in Cannes, probably about the same time. But every year I've been thrilled to see we're winning more and more Lions, and we seem to keep upping the ante and upping the success of our country every year. Now, to the point where we're actually rivaling London as one of the top countries in bringing home Lions.

00:04:17:10 - 00:04:37:22 Alison So obviously, from a marketing profession and from a creativity perspective, that is incredibly inspiring and motivating for us as Canadians. And I'm excited to see us set yet  a new standard in the number of Lions we bring home this year. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what do you think is driving that, and our increased success at the Cannes Festival?

00:04:38:00 - 00:05:13:15 Stephanie Yeah, that's well, first of all, just in terms of the count, the count of Lions growing. I didn't know it, I didn't know it was like to that extent, which is pretty amazing. That's a really good question. If I were to think about it, I think it's perhaps just in terms of, you know, when we look at how people viewed creativity back then and the possibilities, I feel like our marketers, brands, businesses and organizations, their realization that creativity can impact business as well as people's real lives

00:05:13:15 - 00:05:27:13 Stephanie I feel like maybe opened up projects and opened up, I'd say, different types of problem solving and solutions. So that's probably why, because we are solving more problems through creativity.

00:05:27:15 - 00:05:31:05 Alison So what inspired you to apply to be a judge for the Cannes Lions this year?

00:05:31:07 - 00:05:56:14 Stephanie So it is very different in terms of like where I am now in my career. Obviously, I know it sounds really nerdy, but I think the opportunity to really be exposed to and connected to the most awe-inspiring work in the world is something that I really wanted to to do, but also, I feel like getting the time to actually get into rich discussions and learning different point of views and perspectives that are hopefully eye-opening.

00:05:56:14 - 00:06:15:13 Stephanie And I say that because, you know, when you think about, even in Canada, and I know I keep on, you know, coming back, just the idea of being Canadian, I just think we're a country made of so many different ethnicities and cultures. I feel like to hear more from other people's perspectives will only really make us stronger, and our general understanding of how to reach people here.

00:06:15:15 - 00:06:26:23 Stephanie And so I've always been just really interested in connecting with people and just in terms of learning about behaviours and cultures and what we can do to, I think, really add value.

00:06:27:01 - 00:06:46:05 Alison Such a great perspective. Now, I know that you're going to be on the plane soon, heading to Cannes. And when you haven't judged before, I was under the perception that all the judging happened once you arrived. And clearly I was wrong. So I'd love to have you walk us through the judging process and the commitment involved, because I know it is significant.

00:06:46:06 - 00:07:05:21 Stephanie So yeah, judging involves two stages. The first stage is actually virtual, which is the one that you're talking about, where we really do create a shortlist and that's done independently. And then the second stage is when we're on site and in that room, as we're saying, and having those rich discussions, and that occurs over a two day period.

00:07:05:21 - 00:07:27:13 Stephanie And that's when we really award what is shortlisted a bronze, silver and gold Lion. But in terms of just like, what does it entail, and the commitment required when looking at each entry? Each entry has a written submission. So that's really a time where people can tell the jurors really what the creative strategy was, the concept execution.

00:07:27:15 - 00:07:52:02 Stephanie And then there's a case film and then there's like presentation images and supporting material. And I mean, I think we all can recognize that Cannes really is a career changer and has a possibility to change people's lives. And in saying that, really do take the time to look at each entry and understand the social and cultural context, because this is a global kind of pool of work and platform.

00:07:52:04 - 00:08:20:10 Stephanie And I think also take the time to have that unbiased point of view. And so really, when evaluating the work, I'd say it really is leveraging the same principles that you do, and like I do in my day to day job. And so that really is looking at like, does it have the concept, does it have that level of craft because that is the category, is it original enough and will it have impact or does it for the brand and for the people it's trying to reach.

00:08:20:12 - 00:08:33:05 Stephanie And you know, so that's really how the process is and what we're looking for or what I'm looking for more specifically, when awarding or shortlisting the work.

00:08:33:07 - 00:08:53:06 Alison So I love that you're taking this seriously because as you say, it is a career changer, so... And I can imagine, I've judged other awards when you're going through so many submissions, you really have to hold yourself accountable because you, you at times want to take a shortcut. And you also called out the being aware of the biases that we each bring to it.

00:08:53:06 - 00:09:08:03 Alison So thank you on behalf of all the people that are hoping to win a Cannes Lion that you're judging, for making that a priority. Can you talk a bit about what you're doing to try to minimize your bias as well, as you're going through the process?

00:09:08:05 - 00:09:33:21 Stephanie Well, thanks for asking that question. I, I do think it's about being really, taking the time, I'd say, to be thoughtful and to really go through the submission. To really ask yourself, like or myself, when I'm going through it, why am I having this reaction? Is it based on any maybe biased thinking I have, whether that's in something that I might not...

00:09:33:23 - 00:09:57:21 Stephanie I'll give you an example. Something that might not be an issue that we face here. We might think, oh, is that, you know, not as important. But that's what I mean. That's based on our experience because we surely can't understand. So I feel like it's taking the time to understand the context of the work and then questioning, you know, is this delivering that versus making assumptions.

00:09:57:23 - 00:10:16:17 Alison So, Stephanie, right now you're judging virtually and independently. When you get off the plane and arrive in Cannes, you're obviously going to be coming together in person with your fellow judges for the Industry Craft Awards. And I'd love you to share a little bit about how you think that dynamic will change and what you're most looking forward to in that.

00:10:16:19 - 00:10:38:11 Stephanie I think when you're in person, you know, there's more of an ability to, I think, have an open conversation. And what I mean by that, so when we spoke about biases in the beginning, I feel like a person representing of that country could really talk about how the work might be effective or talk about some nuances that we might not understand.

00:10:38:13 - 00:11:05:08 Stephanie And so I feel like it gives space and room for understanding and for looking at the work through a 360 lens and really having a debate around it and its merits and why it was successful, why it was shortlisted and why it deserves to win. And so I really do feel like it's that added context and being able to see points of view that I might not have alone, you know, being a designer, that's my background.

00:11:05:10 - 00:11:18:19 Stephanie There are judges who have other backgrounds than me, and so I feel like that point of view altogether will really give out a well-rounded recommendation of really, what's the best? And our point of view of what the best is in the world.

00:11:18:23 - 00:11:35:15 Alison That's great. I suspect there will be some very healthy debates as well, so I'm sure that will be a fascinating part of it. And I also think that given the intensity of what you're going to be going through in person, I suspect there's also going to be some really great relationships and friendships formed with your fellow judges.

00:11:35:17 - 00:11:56:16 Stephanie This is what I hear. I mean, the past judges that I've spoken with, I mean, I feel like that's the biggest thing too, so when you asked earlier about, why did I want to judge? I feel like really the opportunity to meet creative people from around the world who are interested in the same things you are and who are trying to push their own field and work and in their own countries

00:11:56:16 - 00:12:00:23 Stephanie I feel like is something that I'm really excited about as well, for sure.

00:12:01:01 - 00:12:06:12 Alison Stephanie, I'd love you to share are there any early trends or themes that you're noticing in the entries that you've reviewed?

00:12:06:14 - 00:12:26:01 Stephanie Yes, there definitely are. I think when we think of craft in general, you know, it has the ability to move you and to make you feel, and I think that's what I was saying is a superpower. And as well, you know, I feel like Cannes, a show like Cannes, really is a reflection of things that are happening in the culture at any given moment.

00:12:26:03 - 00:12:45:03 Stephanie And so these are themes that, because as you were saying, I've also been judging a lot of different shows and and even like in speaking with people in  I would say parallel fields or people in the industry, not necessarily in advertising squarely, but in culture creating so on and so forth. I feel like there are some emerging themes.

00:12:45:05 - 00:13:05:18 Stephanie And so if we're looking at craft as a way to really bring feeling to work, people do that in different ways. And so the things I'm starting to see is nostalgia as craft. So it's really about trying to connect with people by harkening back to like a past time, and I feel like you really do see that in music as well.

00:13:05:18 - 00:13:28:13 Stephanie So whether you're referencing a different time and place through photography, typography or art direction, that is really something that we see. As well as imperfection as craft. And I feel like you see it everywhere, but things that, you know, it feels like something authored it. It's not about perfection. It's actually about seeing that human hand or that idea of a person behind it.

00:13:28:13 - 00:13:54:20 Stephanie And perhaps I feel like with the hot topic of AI, that may be a reason why we are seeing more of that, or the want for that and the reflection of that. And then lastly, I'd say, reduction as craft. And what I mean by that is really boiling something down to its most purest form of expression. And so those were the three I've seen so far, mind you, that might change as we like talk.

00:13:54:20 - 00:14:02:02 Stephanie And there might be more obviously, that emerge, but those are some themes that I've been noticing in craft in general.

00:14:02:04 - 00:14:16:07 Alison Many thanks for sharing that, Stephanie. Now I'd like to close our discussion, you've got a such an enviable career. I know our listeners would love to hear from you, one piece of advice that you would offer for everyone that's tuned in today.

00:14:16:09 - 00:14:39:00 Stephanie This is always a hard question, but I think in keeping, you know, if we're keeping with our topic of just creating like world class breakthrough work. So if I were to keep with that theme or topic, it's really, I'd say get comfortable with the uncomfortable. And you know, what I mean by that is whenever we're creating something new, it doesn't feel comfortable at all.

00:14:39:02 - 00:14:59:03 Stephanie Whenever we're trying to do something different and go against what everyone else is doing, we really do have to, like, brave through it, kind of embrace uncomfortable and and work through it because, you know, just in terms of right now where we are in the world, I feel like we're very heavily reliant on data and things like that.

00:14:59:03 - 00:15:12:05 Stephanie And so, we at this point and the point of that is we need to trust our own experience to really work through it and take that creative and strategic leap, because that's really when true transformation and impact can happen.

00:15:12:07 - 00:15:31:23 Alison I love that advice from a professional perspective. I also love that advice from a personal perspective because every industry is changing, the marketing industry is going through massive change and at a pace that very few other industries are facing. So the reality is that everyone in our profession, if we don't get comfortable with being uncomfortable, it's not going to be a lot of fun.

00:15:32:01 - 00:15:57:16 Alison So Stephanie, thank you for the great advice. Thank you for making time in your very busy schedule to share the first part of your Cannes judging process with us. It's absolutely been a delight. When our listeners are tuning in to today's discussion, you will be off the plane in Cannes, working with your co-judges on the industry craft awards and making some really great decisions and ultimately changing some careers with the decisions that you're making.

00:15:57:16 - 00:16:03:11 Alison So I really appreciate the time you spent with us today, and I'm excited to connect with you when you get back from Cannes.

00:16:03:12 - 00:16:09:10 Stephanie Thanks so much for having me.

00:16:09:12 - 00:26:31:00 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA's CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Ben Tarr, President, and Tahir Ahmad, Chief Strategy Officer of Leo Burnett Group Canada, to explore the groundbreaking Humankind Study. Together, they unpack the study's revelations, challenge assumptions, and offer invaluable wisdom to navigate the evolving landscape.

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:22:06 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:08 - 00:00:43:08 Alison In today's episode, we're going behind the scenes of a highly insightful and much talked about Canadian marketing research study,  the HumanKind Study from Leo Burnett. Since it launched in Canada just a few short years ago, this annual report has gained really strong momentum and secured coverage from major media outlets and generated quite a bit of buzz across the industry for its look into the minds of Canadian consumers.

00:00:43:10 - 00:01:05:02 Alison It's my pleasure today to introduce the president of Leo Burnett Group in Canada, Ben Tarr, alongside their chief strategy officer, Tahir Ahmad, who helped bring the HumanKind Study to life. They're going to share the origin story of how this great initiative went from just an idea to now becoming a highly anticipated flagship report. It's also now expanded into new markets, including the US.

00:01:05:04 - 00:01:40:09 Alison We'll also explore key milestones, some of the unexpected benefits, and their vision for the study's future as it continues to gain traction. Perhaps most importantly, Ben and Tahir will reveal some of this year's most compelling insights, that are challenging assumptions, and conventional wisdom about everything from the evolving Canadian mindset to demographic nuances across our country. With the newly added U.S. data, we're also going to dive into some of the fascinating cross-border comparisons and discuss how Canadian brands can activate against these human-centric insights through authentic, purpose-driven marketing that can really resonate.

00:01:40:11 - 00:01:42:18 Alison So, Ben and Tahir, it's a pleasure to welcome you today.

00:01:42:20 - 00:01:45:18 Ben Thank you for having us, Alison. Great to be here.

00:01:45:20 - 00:01:57:02 Alison Now, the HumanKind study has gained impressive momentum since its beginning a few years ago in Canada. I'd love you to share the origin story behind what motivated Leo Burnett to embark on this annual initiative.

00:01:57:04 - 00:02:19:14 Ben We came together as a new leadership team about five years ago, and we sat down and looked at the changing landscape of the industry and what was happening here in Canada and the seismic shifts that were happening for us as what we were known as an advertising agency. And we really looked inward, what it was we truly did for clients using the power of creativity to transform human behaviour.

00:02:19:16 - 00:02:50:03 Ben And so we went through a period of, you know, self-reflection, looking at what we've been doing w  ell, spent time with our clients to understand where our true value lay. And what we found was it was really beyond advertising, you know, but it really is about thinking of new experiences for brands, new products or service initiatives. And so we decided to reposition from an advertising agency to what we call creative consultancy, where we're delivering value to our clients through the power of creativity.

00:02:50:05 - 00:03:18:17 Ben And one of the things that we really wanted to stand tall on was, comes from a quote actually from Leo Burnett, which is - what helps people, helps business. And thanks to Tahir and his team, we've always had a really robust strategic centre of excellence here. But one thing that we all felt was missing was, not just from our agency, from Canada as well, was a deeper understanding of Canadians, who they are, how they're feeling, how Canada is evolving.

00:03:18:19 - 00:03:38:08 Ben Because as many marketers will know, we are often reliant on data from the U.S. and we always think about ourselves as, well we're similar to the U.S., so we can just borrow from them. We felt like it was something that that wouldn't just help clients, but it would also prove out the fact that we were more of a creative consultancy.

00:03:38:08 - 00:03:41:16 Ben So that's where the idea stemmed from.

00:03:41:18 - 00:04:04:14 Tahir I think for, as strategists, I would just say selfishly, it was to Ben's point, it was just a constant struggle to get Canadian insights and intelligence. And so when you think about how we were approaching every brief and every client and doing bespoke research for each and every one of them to try and understand ways that brands can help solve people's problems.

00:04:04:14 - 00:04:27:04 Tahir It became quite obvious to us that the country and the industry as a whole benefit from something that was, went deeper across the country and was something that we could run every year. Year one, it was not intended to be a Covid report. And so when we when we first had this idea, which truthfully started as, wouldn't it be really interesting to know what the top ten human problems are in Canada?

00:04:27:05 - 00:04:46:08 Tahir How do you even boil that ocean that, that just that was the initial sort of challenge and thought we just sort of sat around a room and said, we have a ton of concerns and issues and tensions and problems and so on. Imagine if you could get that into a top six, top eight, top ten list. And so we set out to do that through our research.

00:04:46:08 - 00:05:18:18 Tahir And then Covid took over. And so it very much became a Covid report, represent the state of people's minds and well-being in Canada at that time. But I'm proud that it's it's now continued on and is now in its third edition. And it's gotten bigger and better, as you mentioned, Alison, off the top, that we've added a massive market in the U.S. and we've continued to fine tune our research methodology to just continue to really get into and under the skin and into the heads of Canadians.

00:05:18:20 - 00:05:43:09 Ben I think that's truly been the thing that we've been involved in more and more is, how can brands take and play an active role in solving these problems. In identifying the problems that Canadians are facing, we then have massive opportunities for brands to take a leadership position in solving some of those problems. So it just comes back to that amazing quote of what's good for people is good for business.

00:05:43:09 - 00:05:48:16 Ben And if we can truly be there to help people, then the business is going to succeed.

00:05:48:18 - 00:06:04:07 Alison So now I'd like you to share what were some of the most surprising and noteworthy findings in this year's Canadian report, and how do this year's insights compare to the first two years of your study, especially when we consider the evolving economy and post-pandemic environment?

00:06:04:09 - 00:06:30:02 Tahir What I found surprising was the shift in people's mindset. And in so far as, no longer accepting or resigned to the status quo of their lives. So if we look at the previous years, and again, as I mentioned, we launched on the heart of Covid. There was a lot of angst. There was a lot of vulnerability. People felt as though they were dealing with something that was quite existential.

00:06:30:07 - 00:06:54:08 Tahir And then the second edition, it was very much, we've come out of this, but, is this the best life's going to get? I thought everything would change. We put Covid behind us. We're all back together. Shouldn't my life be great? Actually, people were staring at a looming recession and a housing crisis and a simmering war globally. And so it just felt as though people were just like, maybe I'll just take my hand off the wheel of life and just sort of see where this goes.

00:06:54:10 - 00:07:11:19 Tahir Which at the time did feel a little dire. I think this year what we saw is this almost defiance from Canadians. There are fed up, no longer willing to just give up on life. And in fact, they were saying, no, life can be better. And I want the life that I thought I was supposed to have or that I was promised.

00:07:11:19 - 00:07:37:11 Tahir I want that now. And so it gave us actually quite a bit of energy to see that it's not a nation full of wallowers and pessimists. Yes, in some ways. And to Ben's point, there's data that supports this that people are hanging on by the skin of their teeth in some instances, but at the same time that they feel more resilient and more, I would say, empowered to want to make life better for themselves and for others.

00:07:37:11 - 00:07:42:07 Tahir So that was, I think, a little surprising, but also really encouraging. 

00:07:42:10 - 00:08:06:08 Ben For me, it was staggering how lonely the country feels, at a time where we're well beyond lockdown and being isolated, and that feeling of isolation where we're all, what feels like we are back together, we're celebrating things together. We're playing together, we're out having fun together. It was staggering, some of the stats that came back in terms of how lonely people are feeling.

00:08:06:10 - 00:08:30:07 Ben And what was really surprising was it was hitting the younger generations more than any generation. So Gen Z and millennials, I think the stat was like 72% feeling lonely some of the time. And that's that's a frightening position for us to be in if we think about the next generations of this country and how they're engaging in society every day to feel lonely some of the time,

00:08:30:07 - 00:08:53:13 Ben for three quarters of millennials, to feel lonely some of the time is is a worrying facet. So I think for me that was a real shock. And also, as a parent to a Gen Z and a little younger, it was about, gosh, what should I be doing as a parent? What brands are there out there that are helping parents like me help our kids re-engage in life, in society and friendships?

00:08:53:14 - 00:08:57:06 Ben So that was like a massive shock for me, was loneliness.

00:08:57:08 - 00:09:20:22 Tahir That was what was new from last year to this year. So there was some persistent themes, and then there were a couple new ones and young and lonely was by far the biggest concern that we saw. Finances and financial well-being, it was up there as well, but in terms of just the stats that really jumped out at you as stark and demanding of attention.

00:09:21:00 - 00:09:40:07 Tahir So to Ben's point, I mean, 77% of Gen Z feels that loneliness. And again, that's a massive number. And first you kind of go, well, how is that possible? And it seems like they're online all the time with one another. And I think that that goes hand-in-hand with another big issue, which is, you know, screens being a crutch.

00:09:40:09 - 00:10:05:00 Tahir And so all of that is contributing to what maybe on the surface, seems as though this is the most hyper-connected generation ever. But the truth is, they admit that because of that excessive screen time, because of that, almost self isolation, which again, part of that was forced upon them. But now that they're out of restrictions, you know, the truth is they admit to feeling awkward around one another.

00:10:05:00 - 00:10:31:23 Tahir They admit to not knowing what to say when they are together socially. They admit to knowing that being more social would help their well-being, but they don't have the energy to be more social. And they also, they mentioned that it's just hard to find and make new friends. Both Ben and I have teenagers, and when you look at them and just go, isn't this the time in your life when that just comes very naturally and you just organically hang around one another?

00:10:32:00 - 00:10:35:19 Tahir It really just reminds us that they need help.

00:10:35:21 - 00:10:58:05 Alison So I certainly share your surprise of that. And the fact that, post-pandemic it's actually gotten worse,, makes it a massive issue that we want to and really need to address. Thanks Tahir for sharing some of the reasons behind it. And what do you think we can do with 77% of our younger Canadians feeling lonely and wanting to reengage, but not really knowing how to ?

00:10:58:06 - 00:11:01:09 Alison What can we do to support them on that journey?

00:11:01:11 - 00:11:26:10 Tahir We talk about what brands can do. In some cases, it's as simple as talking about it. I mean, you know, Bell does a really good job of that as well. And just let's talk. And one of the things that we heard in the groups is that they're giving brands permission to talk about loneliness, and that's always an interesting conversation to have with people, which is like, do brands have the right or the permission to even play in some of these issues?

00:11:26:10 - 00:11:51:14 Tahir Right. Because sometimes it just feels it could be self-serving in this particular case. And again, with the numbers this high and young people raising their hand saying, no, we need help. We need people to enable and facilitate togetherness through saying yes. Brands have permission to talk about this and actually help do something about it. We outlined in the report, you know, again thought-starters ways in for brands to help solve this.

00:11:51:16 - 00:12:18:09 Tahir One of these ways is to actually just help facilitate community coming together. You know, some interesting examples of brands that are doing that, in particular, Hershey's has one, I think it's called the Heartwarming program, where they're actually trying to teach young people social skills, so that when they do come back together, they have more confidence and they have more ability to sort of mix and engage with one another socially.

00:12:18:09 - 00:12:27:10 Tahir So I think there's just some interesting ways that brands are helping to do this. And I think a big part of it just starts with acknowledging it and talking about it.

00:12:27:12 - 00:12:49:12 Ben Yeah, I'd also say from our perspective, you know, when we look at national brands that have national footprints, retail and the shape of retail has been changing so much, the shape of what retail bricks and mortar stands for these days is very different to what it stood for in the past. You look at the proliferation of e-com and direct to home and D2C models.

00:12:49:12 - 00:13:13:14 Ben So it is also a chance for brands to rethink the physical space. You think about some of the sporting brands that bring people together for run rooms and kind of workout clubs, things like that. It is about how can we actually physically create a sense of community. I do think as a massive opportunity for national brands with big retail footprints to physically bring people together and get people off online.

00:13:13:14 - 00:13:16:22 Ben And the screens, which we've heard a lot of so...

00:13:17:00 - 00:13:34:20 Alison The other thing you mentioned that was encouraging is after the first two years of the studies, Canadians were sort of feeling beaten down and like they'd really lost a lot of control. Thankfully this year you're started to see us re-emerge and say, you know what, the heck with this, we're going to take control and we're going to make sure that we're empowered. So I'd love you to talk more about how you saw that come out in the study.

00:13:34:20 - 00:13:41:07 Alison And opportunities for brands to leverage that emerging insight for Canadian consumers.

00:13:41:09 - 00:14:10:19 Tahir Initially, just, you know, when we asked them questions about, you know, just being fearful of of, you know, what's to come or hardships to come. Just a sense of feeling more vulnerable. We saw that drop. So there is a population that is feeling more purposeful as well as less vulnerable and concerned about what they don't know what might come. We heard in the groups, is that coming out of what they've lived through, almost feels like they've faced some of the worst events that they're going to ever face.

00:14:10:19 - 00:14:39:20 Tahir But also they're not naive to think that this might not occur again. So it's almost like, now that we've gone through this and come out the other side, and we expect that there is going to be another event, another crisis, another epidemic that's going to hit us down the road, there's less of this fear. So that's what we found was interesting was that it doesn't mean that they are confident per se, but it demonstrated that they weren't afraid of what's to come, and they felt like they were taking life more head on, which was interesting.

00:14:39:22 - 00:15:05:10 Tahir Now, when you see that evidence in something like the environment. So that was still a big concern for Canadians, was the plight of the environment. But in previous years, again, we saw high stats around Earth as past the point of saving. And I think if my memory serves correctly, last year it was in and around 65% people thought that across the board, which again is very stark, it kind of just says hands off.

00:15:05:12 - 00:15:26:05 Tahir You know, what's going to happen is going to happen. There's nothing else we can do. We're just basically cruising toward our demise, and what we saw this year was a drop of, I think, approximately 32 points in that stat, to the point where, like more people now believe that the environment is in their hands and they can do something about it.

00:15:26:05 - 00:15:48:00 Tahir So again, that's just, again, one small example of how people have decided they're no longer resigned to just what will happen, will happen. They're trying to do something about it, which again, is really encouraging, and it's again a door open for brands to help spark what is already, you know, the right mindset and energy there to make change.

00:15:48:02 - 00:16:07:17 Alison So this year's study includes some data from the U.S. market for the very first time, so that can allow for some pretty interesting comparisons between Canadian and American consumers that I absolutely know our listeners will be intrigued by. So I'd love to understand some of the similarities or differences that jumped out at the two of you when you were looking at the results across North America.

00:16:07:19 - 00:16:17:11 Alison And as, are there any things that are truly unique when it comes to Canadian consumer mindsets and attitudes that were reinforced when you compare us to our American neighbours?

00:16:17:13 - 00:16:47:20 Tahir So loneliness definitely was a massive Canadian concern. So in America, there is concern that Gen Z is being affected by loneliness. It was part of a overall concern about young people's well-being. So that would include physical health, mental health. Loneliness was one aspect of that. I think for us that we saw that, like the young and the lonely being such a big problem, almost epidemic levels here in Canada, as it is in other countries around the world.

00:16:47:20 - 00:17:09:18 Tahir I think that one stood out. Interestingly, also, AI was a theme that we saw in Canada that did not bubble up in the U.S. In Canada, we certainly saw that people were against greater transparency over where AI is going, but I think more importantly that they share the benefits of it. And so we didn't see that as much in the U.S.

00:17:09:20 - 00:17:36:09 Tahir We did see the financial strains that everyone's living through here in Canada was similar in the U.S. as well. So there's real concern. And interestingly, we choose these statements intentionally just to try and get a sense for the gravity of the situation. And so in both countries across the border, there's a sense that financially, people are hanging on by the skin of teeth and that no matter how hard they work, which I think again, very much the American way, if you work, you can achieve your dreams.

00:17:36:09 - 00:17:58:05 Tahir I think we're now starting to see that even Americans are feeling as though, no matter how hard I work, I'll never actually achieve the life that I wanted to achieve. And again, a shared perspective or sense from Canadians and Americans is that the system is rigged, that the rich will always get richer and the gap will widen between those who have everything and those who have nothing.

00:17:58:06 - 00:18:27:05 Tahir And so we're seeing that play out as well. What was also interesting is that the environment is as much a concern in the U.S. as it is here in Canada, but as I mentioned before, in Canada, people across all age demographics are now sort of at the table ready to do something about it. So previous years, the report sort of revealed that there might have been a bit of a baton pass or a hot potato in between generations.

00:18:27:05 - 00:18:45:18 Tahir In terms of whose responsibility is it to clean up the environment and save the planet? Right. There was a bit of, I think it was last year, a bit of the older generations being like, hey, you know, this is on you now, over to you younger generation to fix this. And the younger generations very much saying, hey, you made this mess.

00:18:45:20 - 00:19:10:12 Tahir How about you help clean it up? Whereas now, across the board, they all believe that more needs to be done. Otherwise we will continue to repeat our mistakes. Interestingly, in the U.S. it's a concern, but it doesn't come down to age. It comes down to political beliefs and an association. So if you're a Democrat, you're highly concerned about the environment and that government is not doing enough.

00:19:10:14 - 00:19:14:20 Tahir If you're a Republican, you're not as concerned at all.

00:19:14:22 - 00:19:40:10 Ben I will say, what I loved about the coming together of these reports is to see that people are ready again, and want to take charge is the thing that's exciting us most for all of our clients. The fact that people are ready is a great start, and I think now it's got to be about brands readying themselves to be able to deliver against some of the challenges that people are facing out there in the world.

00:19:40:10 - 00:20:08:06 Ben And and honestly, the stats have always shaken us a little bit when we hear things like 72% of people don't believe brands understand them or care to solve their problems and their challenges. I think that's where we've got to ready ourselves in the communications and the creative space is how can we all come together and figure out ways that authentically make sense for brands to step in and do the right things by people?

00:20:08:06 - 00:20:14:04 Ben Because, as we know, what's good for people will be good for our clients businesses as well.

00:20:14:06 - 00:20:33:23 Alison Now, building on that, you shared earlier that younger Canadians are starting to be open to brands, certainly around loneliness and open to them coming in and helping find solutions . So Ben, are you seeing that start around the permission for brands and that the trust in brands growing or has it sort of plateaued study to study?

00:20:34:01 - 00:20:47:04 Ben I'm pretty sure the number has held pretty consistently over the last three years. Sadly, we haven't seen a big change in terms of people's belief that brands understand them or are there to to help them.

00:20:47:08 - 00:21:03:22 Tahir And that number is actually higher at 77%. So it's always hovered around 77, 80. We would love to have seen that number go down as we continue on with this report year over year, but nonetheless it has not changed as much as we would like.

00:21:04:00 - 00:21:27:14 Ben I think the other big thing is it really is important that brands don't see this as like the charitable division needs to solve this. I think that's often what work can come down to. Purpose means charity. I think having an authentic purpose at the core of why your business exists in the world, and why our clients get out of bed in the mornings.

00:21:27:16 - 00:21:55:23 Ben That's the linkage to helping solve some of these problems. And people don't expect free. They don't expect things to just be given to them and handed them. Yes, we need our ESG strategies, but people know that we are in the business of making profit. People know that our clients and brands need to make money as well. I think it's just about the transparency, the openness to help solve some of these challenges, the fairness with it. The AI one's really interesting.

00:21:56:00 - 00:22:07:15 Ben People are scared of the pace of it, but they also know that it's going to add value in certain ways to companies. They just want to make sure that they're getting their fair shake of that value as well.

00:22:07:17 - 00:22:34:01 Alison Great insights Ben. Thank you very much. So one of the most powerful aspects of the HumanKind study really, is how it's uncovering very human problems and tensions that we as a society are grappling with, and we as Canadians are grappling with in our daily lives as well. You've shared some examples, and I'd love you both to share a few more examples of how brands are taking that authentic action to really help solve and alleviate the problems, and in the process, also benefiting their businesses.

00:22:34:03 - 00:23:18:18 Ben This is an amazing organization called Melanin Gamers, who are really standing up for, for the rights of people of colour in the video gaming and online video gaming space, and yeah, this is the second year of work we've done for them. We've actually launched a toxicity rating for some of the major games that are played online. And what's interesting about the ESRB ratings that we're so familiar with, like T for Teen, is they're only rating the game mode, and the reality is, is while people play game mode as individuals, the lion's share of gaming now happens in online communities where toxicity levels are frightening.

00:23:18:20 - 00:23:45:20 Ben And in fact, the reason Melanin Gamers was found, it was because the founders, Annabel, the founder's, brother Alan, actually had to come away from gaming as as a teen because he was being so ridiculed and all of the racist comments that were happening to him. So we set out to try and help the organization. And in year one, we created The Watch, which was an online community to help defend and stand up for our people in online communities.

00:23:45:20 - 00:24:07:04 Ben And then the second is the toxicity rating, which launched a few months ago, which helps people identify with games that are going to be really toxic online, which we did using a deep research study. So yeah, for us, we've seen the visiveness in the study, but for us that is a real problem that's been consistent in the study over the last three years.

00:24:07:04 - 00:24:16:16 Ben And for us to be able to go out and work with an organization to try and help solve such a big systemic problem has been really, really engaging for the team.

00:24:16:18 - 00:24:39:20 Tahir Again, this is where understanding a bit more of the deeper factors that are contributing to even the loneliness. But social media is a big part of that because of what Ben just mentioned, like what they're in these forums or when they're connected on social platforms. It is the online racism, the online abuse, the fact that they're coming away from it with lower self-esteem.

00:24:39:20 - 00:25:07:04 Tahir There's a concern that young people's self-worth is connected to even just simple things such as likes. So I can only imagine what happens if a 14-15 year old is playing a video game and just feels endlessly ridiculed, or worse. And so that that's what's also contributing to that almost self-isolation. So these small things, I mean, again, this doesn't seem small.

00:25:07:04 - 00:25:30:23 Tahir This is actually a massive initiative. I think the biggest learning for us is we're not saying that online forums, online gaming should go away. We're not saying that social media and social media platforms should no longer be accessed by young people. We're not saying phones and screens, you know, are the enemy, because we also know that that's just not true, and it's not a reality that Canadians will live with it.

00:25:31:01 - 00:25:36:08 Tahir But where we can, how can we foster healthier communities?

00:25:36:10 - 00:26:06:17 Ben There was a great piece of work done. And actually it was it was a number of years ago, but it was also around the challenges of loneliness in older people. And it was for Skype, believe it or not. I haven't heard the word Skype for a while, but what they did is they realized that there was a challenge of aging people being really lonely, and what they did is they connected them with young people who were looking to learn English or Spanish or different languages.

00:26:06:17 - 00:26:32:10 Ben And so it was such an interesting idea where young people that wanted to learn languages could, can connect with old people that had lots of time on their hands and little to do, and it just gave them an opportunity to have human connection and build relationships that they weren't getting at home or in their communities. So just the power of that ability to to create a product or service that was true and authentic to their brand.

00:26:32:11 - 00:26:58:06 Ben So a real human need was phenomenal. So I think it's ideas like that, that creativity can be such a powerful business tool. And I think it's just about taking a minute or taking some time. And whether it's running workshops or bringing divergent groups of people together. But looking at the product, looking at what the brand does, looking at the problem and trying to find authentic solutions for it.

00:26:58:08 - 00:27:26:01 Alison Those are great examples. Now you both called out like in doing a study like this where you're asking Canadians what's most concerning, it can certainly pull some very meaty, important issues that also at times can be a bit of a downer. So I'd love to have you both share with our listeners, what you're most excited about coming out of year three of the study and how Canadians are feeling as they're going into the coming months?

00:27:26:03 - 00:28:01:11 Ben It's just that feeling of, or that view of seeing people more optimistic, more ready to get back in and take control of life no matter what, what's being thrown at them. I think there's so much optimism in the report, even though it it can feel like a bit of a downer. That for me is is what's exciting. But what's more exciting is the opportunity for us and the brands that we're serving to really find ways to reinvigorate their brands, their products, their services in a way that's going to meet the Canadians and the U.S. customers

00:28:01:13 - 00:28:04:10 Ben you know where they are on that journey of optimism and being ready.

00:28:04:10 - 00:28:29:04 Tahir I think for me, it's just being able to see some of these insights or problems, now that we have more clarity on them, that we can get together with our client partners and directly go after them and try and find solutions for them, which is what's been happening since we launched this third edition. And we mentioned some pretty big initiatives like the Toxicity report.

00:28:29:04 - 00:28:55:12 Tahir But other instances, we have brands like Pizza Hut and just about how do you find fun, simple social ways of connecting people over pizza. So not everything has to be as meaty to your point Alison, even though if it's a meat lovers pizza, that's pretty meaty, but I think it's it's still about within the sandbox of your brand and within what people expect of you and the role you play.

00:28:55:12 - 00:29:05:01 Tahir It's finding your own way as a brand. And I think just knowing what we can go right at as a strategist is something that I find really exciting.

00:29:05:03 - 00:29:16:21 Alison Now you both have incredibly enviable careers, and I'd love to close off our discussion by having each of you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners, knowing that our listeners are primarily marketers just like you.

00:29:16:23 - 00:29:34:06 Ben There's so many different ways to answer this. I love Leo's quote of reaching for the stars. I think there's a there's a lot of there's a lot of "no" in the world when we when we try and do new things or do different things, I think, you know, having that belief and optimism to reach for the stars is critical,

00:29:34:06 - 00:29:52:20 Ben if you're going to disrupt, if you're going to do new things. But I think ultimately when I think about one piece of advice is just be a good human. I think living the values that you do every day, being a good human at work, at home, I think it's going to make for success, whatever you're doing.

00:29:52:22 - 00:30:16:14 Tahir I would say for me, because my path wasn't so conventional and where I started at digital advertising, I was then moving into accounts that I headed over in the planet and then where I am today. I think there needs to be an openness to being uncomfortable, because in my career, I've had moments where even coming to Leo, from where I was previously, I was very content.

00:30:16:19 - 00:30:38:18 Tahir I was doing good work, I was working at a top agency, and I was surrounded by people I considered friends, like there was no real reason for me to have to leave, other than I knew at the time that Leo would be a next level, that again, would probably poke at my imposter syndrome, and that would probably make me feel a little bit vulnerable.

00:30:38:20 - 00:30:53:01 Tahir And in the end, I didn't know a single person, which I thought was actually pretty hard to do in this industry, which can seem small at times. 

00:30:53:03 - 00:31:16:00 Tahir I think it's always those steps along the way, even moving into strategy from account management, it's there's always been these steps where it felt uncomfortable and maybe even a little scary, but I think just put your head down and working, being open to those uncomfortable scenarios. And to Ben's point, just being a good human, I think, I think those are those are pretty good keys.

00:31:16:01 - 00:31:30:14 Alison Thanks for the Outstanding advice. Ben and Tahir, thank you very much. This has been a great conversation, and  I really appreciate you sharing a lot of very rich insights on Canadian consumers and also how we're comparing to our American counterparts. So I will end by saying just a great big thank you on behalf of the CMA and all our listeners.

00:31:30:16 - 00:31:32:06 Ben  Thank you so much, Alison.

00:31:32:08 - 00:31:37:14 Tahir Nice speaking with you, Alison.

00:31:37:16 - 00:31:50:06 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news and industry trends.

CMA Marketing Week 2024 kicked off with a discussion with Eva Salem, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Brand at Canadian Tire, Steve Levy, COO at Ipsos Canada and Ashley Faccenda, Marketing Manager at Kruger Products for a live taping of CMA Connect.

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:24:16 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business news with your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:24:18 - 00:00:44:19 Alison We're thrilled to see so many CMA members joining us in person today, along with hundreds of marketers from across Canada who are attending virtually. I'm excited to kick off our inaugural CMA marketing week, presented by Google with today's distinguished panel and great discussion. We're leaving lots of room for Q&A as well, and looking forward to having you engage in the debate. Before we kick things off, I'll introduce myself.

00:00:44:19 - 00:01:09:02 Alison I'm Alison Simpson, the president and CEO for the Canadian Marketing Association. The marketing profession is undergoing seismic shifts from rapidly evolving technologies and marketplaces, to changing consumers and disruption around the very nature of marketing and the CMA role itself. Tips for marketing. Today, we have a dynamic panel of CMA Award winners who span multiple vantage points in different career stages.

00:01:09:04 - 00:01:32:00 Alison Joining us is Eva Salem, our 2023 CMA Marketer of the Year Award winner and the Senior Vice President of Marketing Brand at Canadian Tire. As someone charged with driving business and brand growth and consumer connections, Eva offers an inside view of how established brands are future proofing their marketing amid massive disruption. Also joining us is Steve Levy from Ipsos Canada.

00:01:32:02 - 00:01:55:09 Alison Steve brings a wealth of experience from a career spent in sales, brand marketing and the world of consumer insights. Steve was awarded CMA's Lifetime Achievement Award in 2021. He's also one of the best connected people in our profession, so I know he's that many fans in our audience today. And rounding out the panel, we have Ashley Faccenda,   our inaugural winner of the CMA AIM Award, which recognizes emerging talent.

00:01:55:11 - 00:02:15:17 Alison Ashley is a marketing manager at Kruger Products and brings a vital perspective of marketing's rising stars and future leaders with their diverse backgrounds and different career perspectives. Eva, Steve and Ashley are well-positioned to help us tackle the big issues that are shaping marketing's road ahead. They're also very open to some healthy debate, so it promises to be thought-provoking as well.

00:02:15:19 - 00:02:37:11 Alison Together, we're discussing their perspectives on where marketing is headed and what we need to do as a profession to ensure that we can thrive in the months and years ahead. From the implications of AI to the imperative of better serving Canada's growing newcomer population, we're tackling some of the biggest opportunities and challenges facing marketers today. So let's dive in.

00:02:37:13 - 00:03:04:18 Alison We're going to open with the question - is today the golden age of marketing? In my recent conversation with Raja Rajamannar, the global CMO for Mastercard and author of Quantum Marketing, he shared that he sees the months and years ahead as the golden age of marketing. Here's his view. This era is driven by exponential disruptions, good and bad, in consumers'-  lives that are caused by a deluge of emerging technologies.

00:03:04:19 - 00:03:27:15 Alison The resulting changes in the consumer landscape are a call for marketers to tap into the dynamics of the new paradigm and reinvent their entire approach. We're at the start of the golden age of marketing, in his opinion, because our profession is uniquely positioned to thrive, because marketing is fundamentally about understanding people and then creating solutions for them the right way.

00:03:27:17 - 00:03:45:04 Alison Plus, marketers are best suited to lead and manage the changes in the consumer, business and marketing landscape. So we're going to do a quick rapid fire - yes or no - to our panel. Eva, Steve and Ashley, in your opinion, are we at the start of the golden age of marketing?

00:03:45:06 - 00:03:49:09 Eva I'm going to go with no, not in the traditional sense.

00:03:49:11 - 00:03:53:19 Steve I'm going to go with no and yes, but I'll come back and explain why.

00:03:53:21 - 00:03:55:04 Alison Absolutely, Ashley.

00:03:55:04 - 00:03:58:10 Ashley And my answer is yes, but...

00:03:58:14 - 00:04:05:19 Alison Ok. Absolutely. So we promised some healthy debate. We're clearly off to a good start. So Steve, I'm going to start with you. Why yes and no.

00:04:05:21 - 00:04:46:06 Steve So first of all, a little bit of context. It was most certainly the case that marketers and agencies thought that they created culture. We overstated really what we did. I mean, in many respects, what we've been doing is reflecting it and maybe borrowing from it. So that said, why no and yes. So no, in the sense that if golden age is defined by big budgets, big departments, big impact or assumed impact, and an autonomy that multinational marketers have in this country, then the answer is probably no.

00:04:46:08 - 00:04:56:12 Steve Yes, in the sense that there's not a golden age. But I do think there's a new age. And I do think the new age is very exciting.

00:04:56:13 - 00:05:33:21 Eva  Yeah, I would agree with that. I think if you think of marketing as exclusively in the space of brand building and sort of traditional marketing, yeah, I don't think it's the golden age. I think if you're willing to take your superpower of really understanding customers, which is what the core of marketing is, and allow that to become a real driver towards moving business forward, looking at things as growth opportunities, impact opportunities, then I think the world is limitless.

00:05:33:23 - 00:05:59:12 Eva But I think we are expected to know more and do more than we've ever done. And if we can accept that challenge and do it properly, then yeah, I think the golden age awaits. I think if we're hoping to go back to the simplified view of yesteryear in terms of the lane that was marketing, I don't I think that'll only get you so far.

00:05:59:13 - 00:06:08:16 Alison So Ashley, as the youngest person on the panel, it actually gives me great comfort that you were the most positive. We all hedged our bets, but you were the most positive, so I'd love to hear why.

00:06:08:18 - 00:06:27:05 Ashley It was a yes, BUT. So why I would say yes right now is. Again, even in my short career over the past five years, I think we've seen a significant change. However, if I were to ask myself this question in 30 years, I believe the answer will be yes. And me? Myself. Looking back as today, the answer would be no.

00:06:27:05 - 00:06:45:14 Ashley So I believe there's going to be more significant change. I think it's going to be even faster pace, more dynamic shifts. However, I believe in 30 years the answer would be yes. As of right now, I have seen a significant change. So I will say yes as well. But I think we're going to again, continue to see a larger impact as the years to come.

00:06:45:14 - 00:06:50:12 Ashley Bigger budgets, more channels, just absolute faster pace.

00:06:50:13 - 00:07:09:06 Alison I think that's great insight, especially five years into your career. When I think back 30 years ago when I started my career, there's no way I could have anticipated what marketing is like today. And to be honest, that's a big part of what I love about our profession and the opportunities. And for some of our more senior people on the panel,  of me being the probably the most senior.

00:07:09:08 - 00:07:27:11 Alison The fact that we can now reach out one on one, the fact that we can now measure what we do in a way that was a dream for me five years into my career. For me, it really does represent the start of the golden age of marketing. Now, Eva, what would need to change, in your opinion, to make this truly the start of the golden age?

00:07:27:13 - 00:07:55:22 Eva Yeah, I think growing our area of influence is really what we're talking about. Right. So it's that being the executive leader at the table, having the conversations about how to drive business forward. So I think we obviously traditionally have done that to some extent, but always with Lane of a marketing lens. And I think now it's sort of more of the creative problem solving to business problems

00:07:55:22 - 00:08:27:00 Eva On steroids , it's that we're going to need to be open to and be at the forefront of for our organizations. So I think truly, in my mind it's a more exciting time than it's been in the past. If you can get over how complicated it is and the pace of change and the fact that it's nerve wracking and the whole, I'd say for me personally, being an expert in an area was very comforting.

00:08:27:01 - 00:08:48:18 Eva And that was always sort of what I could bring to a table. And being more open to the fact that we're going to be an areas where we're not necessarily experts, but we need to be involved in those conversations. A) so that we can learn from them and B) so that we can contribute and put us on a, I think, more forward looking path.

00:08:48:20 - 00:09:05:22 Alison It's definitely not a profession for the faint of heart, and having that profile and voice at the C-suite is mission critical. So and building credibility across the organization, and you clearly done a good job of it. So do you have any tips or recommendations on how the people joining us today can learn from your experience?

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:29:13 Eva Yeah, I mean, I've always just been a super curious person. So I've tried to just keep learning as I go. So wherever there are opportunities to take on more or to be exposed to different things, I raise my hand, even though it is nerve wracking and stressful and more work. But yeah, I mean, my portfolio used to be sort of traditional marketing communications.

00:09:29:13 - 00:10:01:20 Eva What everyone would expect. From there, I added on, someone needed to do more of the ESG stuff at our corporation. So that environment, sustainability, that side of things. I volunteered. It helped me learn a lot, and it helped the corporation because traditionally that was an area that was largely run by legal and governance. And having a brand person on that really, I think, made a difference, more of the storytelling than engaging our employees,

00:10:01:22 - 00:10:34:23 Eva figuring out how to talk to the street about it. Those are things that aren't quote unquote, traditional marcom jobs, but the marcom skills really helped be able to do something like that. And now I even have communications for the corporation, which also, different skill set, but at the end of the day is about speaking with our employees, speaking with our from a government relations perspective, from an investor relations perspective, it's still the same core capabilities, just being used in different ways to stay relevant.

00:10:35:00 - 00:10:39:08 Alison That's great. Now, Steve, how do we get you from no yes to just yes?

00:10:39:10 - 00:11:06:11 Steve I'm not I'm not sure you can make that shift for me, but what I would do is perhaps pick up on a couple of points that Eva made. And the primary one is this notion of the seat at the table. I think that's a challenge in marketing for a number of reasons, but the one I would pick today is that not only has technology fragmented media, but in so doing it's also fragmented fame.

00:11:06:13 - 00:11:35:14 Steve And when you think about the the idea that the most senior people in organizations, they love that aura around being associated with fame and the and the advertising, if you like, that was connected to that fame. That doesn't exist today in the same way that it did. And so fragmentation of media and therefore fame has made the challenge for marketing to have the ear of the CEO that much more difficult.

00:11:35:16 - 00:11:44:13 Alison Now, Ashley, when we were talking as a group preparing for a bit this morning, we talked about do we have an advertising and marketing clutter problem? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

00:11:44:16 - 00:12:04:17 AShley Yeah. my answer to this one is yes. I think ourselves as consumers, we can't deny within the media landscape, again, just the clutter and all the brands that are working within the space and all the new channels and all the different brands that are there, I think now more than ever it's changing and how we're reaching consumers through media.

00:12:04:19 - 00:12:23:13 Ashley It's not just about this great creative that's breaking through the noise. It's really about reaching that right audience with that right message and really connecting with them on a meaningful way. I think now more than ever, as consumers are expecting that from brands. So I think, yes, there is a problem within the space and it's it's we're adapting to that and adjusting our ways.

00:12:23:17 - 00:12:33:11 Alison And Steve, as we were chatting, you also said, do we have a pretty picture problem and not enough focus on the business impact that we as a profession make? So I'd love you to share your thoughts on that.

00:12:33:12 - 00:12:55:12 Steve Yeah, I mean, do we have a pretty picture problem. I'm not I'm not sure we do or and I suspect I would agree with Ashley. But what I do think is we have a specialization conundrum, in the sense that marketing has become necessarily much more specialized. You know, when I was a young brand marketer, I had four lines on my PNL.

00:12:55:12 - 00:13:21:01 Steve You know, TV, radio, print and outdoor. So my life compared to your life was extremely simple. But what the specialization conundrum does is it forces you guys into very narrow lanes. And does that, in effect, move you away from the bigger picture, from the holistic picture of, how is the total business doing if you're operating in a narrow lane?

00:13:21:01 - 00:13:26:02 Steve I think maybe it does. I don't know what the answer is, which is why I describe it as a conundrum.

00:13:26:04 - 00:13:35:06 Alison So Eva, we've all grown up with the four PS of marketing. So much around us has changed. Do you think the four PS are still relevant?

00:13:35:08 - 00:14:00:00 Eva Yeah, I mean, I think the four PS are important as a as business principles have been, will be, and I can't see a scenario in which they aren't, but I do see them as table stakes. I don't think brands can really differentiate to the level that they're going to need to on the backs of the four PS anymore, like think about product and endless aisle and price.

00:14:00:00 - 00:14:33:05 Eva You can find every price around the world on every item in two seconds. They're not differentiators anymore. I think we need to figure out the truly, at the end of the day, the value added experience you offer customers and the overall ability to connect with customers is going to be the thing that differentiates brands. And as we talk about all the fragmentation and how complicated it's getting, I believe there's a shake up about to happen.

00:14:33:07 - 00:15:01:22 Eva I think there's too many brands, too many products, too much stuff, too many people trying to sell without enough real differentiation or reason for being. So. I think you will see a bit of a culling, if you will. because there's just too much of everything right now, and a lot of it is the same. So not being depressing about it, I don't want to be depressed, but I think it's on brands to really figure out how they're different.

00:15:02:00 - 00:15:08:02 Eva And if you can't figure that out, I do think you won't be able to.

00:15:08:04 - 00:15:12:23 Alison Well, if you overlay ESG... 

00:15:12:23 - 00:15:33:23 Eva All the things! The way that we're producing, all of that stuff, it's got to come to a point. And so you will have these moments where you're like, what is this brand about? What is this service about? And if you can't answer that in a way that's different than the other brand and the other service, I don't think we're just going to continue producing into perpetuity.

00:15:34:01 - 00:15:47:10 Alison Now, on a more optimistic note, you talked abou,t we as marketers have an incredible superpower, and that is understanding people and consumers in a way that no one else in the organization, and the C-suite can. So I'd love you to share a little bit about that.

00:15:47:12 - 00:16:23:10 Eva Yeah, I mean, I that's the thing that at the end of the day, you would think with all this more and more and more, we would be better, better, better. And in many instances we're not. And I think it's because there's not enough time spent on figuring out what is your differentiator, what is the impact that you want to have, so that at the end of the day, your ability to articulate that, to mobilize an organization around that, to have that be the North Star that guides your product, production and your pricing strategy and all those kinds of things.

00:16:23:12 - 00:16:56:14 Eva in a fulsome way that is not fragmented is ultimately what will enable companies to be healthy going forward or not. So yeah, I do, I think, like, I'm excited for the future of marketers because I think most people don't intuitively think that way. Most people around the table don't. And I'm always amazed when I sit in cross-functional groups how siloed a lot of my colleagues are based on their discipline.

00:16:56:16 - 00:17:06:04 Eva And I find marketers have, generally speaking, a more fulsome view to a problem. And I think we can really leverage that.

00:17:06:06 - 00:17:16:20 Alison You know, Steve, you have such exposure to many different industries. You've been on both the marketer side and the research side. So what do you think about the super power of marketers really being our understanding of people?

00:17:16:22 - 00:17:38:19 Steve So I mean, obviously I'm very biased because I live in that world. But but before it helps comment on that, I'm going to come back to something you said. So the four P's like either I agree that they are still relevant, but they've all become way more complicated. If I pick the P that used to be for me as a brand marketer, the simplest, which was pricing.

00:17:38:21 - 00:18:01:01 Steve That's perhaps now the most complicated. We never dealt with dynamic pricing. Many of you guys might. We never dealt with surge pricing. Many of you guys might. Today, you know, people build models around pricing. Years past, simpler issue. I've forgotten the second question that you asked me now.

00:18:01:03 - 00:18:07:15 Alison So from a marketing superpower is the people, if you had to give us a superpower, what would it be?

00:18:07:17 - 00:18:31:01 Steve The superpower of the market marketer. The optimistic side of me would say that the marketer has a hand in many facets of the business. The optimistic side of me would say that, and that would be their superpower, to look out across all of the business and pull the string.s Again, that's an optimistic view of the world. But but perhaps that's the one I would have.

00:18:31:03 - 00:18:35:01 Alison And, Ashley, if you were going to give marketers a superpower and had to pick one, what would it be?

00:18:35:03 - 00:18:51:18 Ashley Again, I think it's going to all come back to the consumer really, really understanding the consumer when we talk about, are the four Ps still relevant? I think, yes, the foundation of the four Ps are still irrelevant, or relevant, but the strategies that fall with under the four Ps are, again, really, really driven by understanding that consumer.

00:18:51:18 - 00:19:06:08 Alison So now one of the realities that we as marketers are dealing with today is balancing long term brand building with short term results. So Ashley, I'd love to hear your thoughts and experience and how you're balance, helping to balance those two things.

00:19:06:10 - 00:19:27:17 Ashley I think both are extremely important. I feel a little bit of a sense of pressure to deliver short term, I think, to drive the business. Stakeholders want to see immediate results, but I think it's our obligation as marketers to understand and push the agenda that we need long term strategy, brand building initiatives. So I do find that we need both.   00:19:27:17 - 00:19:45:13 Ashley But again, I think there's a little bit more pressure to deliver that short term. But we do need that overarching long term strategy to build those brands. Those iconic brands were built overnight. So I think again, having that balance of both, but it's really on us to support the long term agenda of these brands and sustainability of them.

00:19:45:15 - 00:20:05:06 Eva If I can just add to that, especially in the recession and the times that we're facing right now, I will say the race to the bottom is one that is very cyclical and brands get into it before they know it and you used to have to give off 40%. And then before you know it, you're giving off 60% and then you're giving off whatever.

00:20:05:08 - 00:20:45:18 Eva And it's fundamentally because that balance is not where it needs to be. That ability to invest enough to stay relevant so that you don't have to discount beyond reasonable parameters, and so that you're not hooked on week over week sales and day over day sales. I think that is a real place for marketers to be vocal and speak, and be the real voice of reason, because digging yourself out of those kinds of decisions is very costly and hurts profitability and hurts the business.

00:20:45:20 - 00:20:52:07 Eva So that's another way that I think this group really has a role and a responsibility to play.

00:20:52:09 - 00:21:13:03 Steve Of course, that question is very connected to this building, very connected to this building, because when we talk about the long and the short balance, the stock market drives the short, there are there are lots of studies out there now that talk to this balance between the long and the short, they're all super interesting. They're all worth looking at.

00:21:13:03 - 00:21:26:10 Steve And and if I were to make one comment about them, is that the long and the short balance does vary by sector. You know, some sectors are way more skewed to the short than others.

00:21:26:12 - 00:21:45:17 Alison Great point. So we're going to see how optimistic our audience is. So the people that are here in person and for people that are joining us virtually, you can message in the chat raise your hand if you think we're at the start of the golden age of marketing. Well, that's pretty evenly split. So we'll we'll see what our virtual members from across the country have to think as well.

00:21:45:19 - 00:22:09:13 Alison So now we're going to talk about switch gears and talk about how to connect with Canada's diverse communities. So most of us know that newcomers are absolutely core to the growth and future of Canada's economy, and certainly our growth. They're also an incredibly broad and diverse group. So the experience of a newcomer in their very first year to Canada is fundamental, different from five, ten and 15 years into it.

00:22:09:15 - 00:22:26:17 Alison Plus, Canada is starting to see newcomers come to our country with high expectations and then opt out because we're not delivering on what they expected. So I'm going to start with Steve. What marketing opportunities and challenges exist in reaching newcomers and immigrant populations in Canada?

00:22:26:19 - 00:22:57:14 Steve I think there's two fundamental points to be made. One is that I think as as we interact with marketers, their approach to newcomers has really changed. And it's changed from the scenario where marketers felt that they could market to specific newcomers based on their different cultural heritages, which was both practically and economically not viable in this country.

00:22:57:16 - 00:23:27:20 Steve And now, notwithstanding the 1 to 1 marketing scenario, not practical. And so what we've seen as many marketers move to the scenario where they focus first and foremost, not on differences, but on commonality. And that commonality, of course, is everyone's coming to the same place. So that would be the first point. The second, which very much speaks to opportunity, is to think long and hard about the journey that newcomers take.

00:23:27:22 - 00:23:44:02 Steve And that journey doesn't start when they get off the airplane. It starts long before that. And so to think about the points where brands can intersect with that journey to influence the newcomer.

00:23:44:04 - 00:23:52:04 Alison Now, Ashley, I know you've got some great experiences targeting newcomers from a career perspective, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and any examples that you might want to share.

00:23:52:06 - 00:24:17:20 Ashley Yeah, a great example that I would love to share. So at Kruger Products I manage our household paper category. So bathroom tissue, paper towel, facial tissue and how consumers use our product. There's a universal truth that you're using bathroom tissue, paper towel, facial tissue, I think again there's a human truth and usage occasion truth across many generations and countries that when consumers are using our product, it's in these raw moments.

00:24:17:20 - 00:24:38:13 Ashley It's in these vulnerable moments when you're using facial tissue. And we launched a campaign called Unapologetically Human, where we featured all of these moments of where consumers are using our product. And I think that advertising spot works well across any multicultural marketing, mainstream, if you want to call it that. But the one thing that we did was really understand the audience.

00:24:38:13 - 00:24:58:01 Ashley So yes, the human usage truth was there and it works across in our advertising. However, understanding the audience. One simple change of what we did was we adopted music that connected with the audience, whether it's using Chinese lyrics, Mandarin lyrics, something that really resonated with the audience on top of that, human truth really, really worked well for us.

00:24:58:06 - 00:25:13:08 Ashley And again, it's a it's a small thing to really understand the audience that you're serving and connecting with them on that human truth, but also how you resonate with them with something as simple as music really performed well for us. So that was just a quick little story I wanted to share and something very valuable that I took away.

00:25:13:10 - 00:25:16:01 Alison Thanks, Ashley. And Eva, what what are some examples from Canadian Tire ?

00:25:16:01 - 00:25:43:22 Speaker 3 Yeah, I think that's, I think brands have been on a journey with this for sure. One is understanding to your point, it's not new Canadians. It's a massive pool of people with different needs, states and different experiences and different biases and different everything. So that's the beginning. The other is I think it started with the easy, the easy things, you know, representation in ads and language which different languages and being on different channels.

00:25:43:22 - 00:26:07:09 Eva And that's sort of marketing hygiene if you will, and was smart to do. And now I think you're seeing the next phase of this, which is Steve, to your point of, figuring out what the brand's role in their experience is. And I will say at Canadian Tire, I'm a little bit spoiled in that our role is a very clear one.

00:26:07:09 - 00:26:35:06 Eva We we believe we own the seasons in this country. We believe the seasons are relevant for new Canadians. And that is our segue in. So it's a very authentic way to engage with them. It's your first winter. It's your first time learning to skate. It's your first what, it's it's a lot of that. So for us as a brand, it was not a stretch trying to figure out how we could engage with this audience.

00:26:35:08 - 00:27:06:20 Eva But I will say, for instance, with our bank, which most people don't know, we also own a bank. Our bank decided that their criteria for lending was going to be not as rigorous as what traditional banks were often asking of immigrants. So we ended up creating a credit card program that was more inclusive of new Canadians, because the credit rating expectations were different than what the big banks were asking.

00:27:06:20 - 00:27:24:18 Eva So that was a way to connect in a way that was authentic to the business that the banks were in. That was helpful for the stage and phase that the new Canadians were experiencing. But once again, tied to the core purpose of what we were doing, which was offering credit cards.

00:27:24:20 - 00:27:25:17 Alison Great example. Steve?

00:27:25:17 - 00:27:46:23 Steve Does anyone in the room remember that wonderful Tim Hortons commercial from a few years back on newcomers? Does anyone remember that one? Yeah. Few people. Yeah. The snowman. So, you know, as some of you know, we test thousands of commercials. That commercial was in the top 5% of any commercial that we ever tested. You want to go see a commercial

00:27:46:23 - 00:27:50:20 Steve that's a tear jerker. Go check it out online.

00:27:50:22 - 00:27:54:04 Alison And, Steve, what would you attribute that success to?

00:27:54:06 - 00:28:11:04 Steve Well, emotion. I mean, you know, it triggered emotions. Whether you were a newcomer or not. It triggered emotions and a sense of Canadian pride that that, you know, not many advertising commercials have at their root.

00:28:11:06 - 00:28:46:03 Eva And I'll say emotion in this space, I think is a bit nerve wracking for brands, because it can come off as optics or as just trying to get a piece of a pie or, you know, trying to be something for everybody. And so that's why I think connecting it back to the role of the brand insulates you a little bit from looking like you're just chasing business opportunities, like you're actually trying to do something that is helpful for that market.

00:28:46:05 - 00:29:04:10 Alison The other balances with newcomers, they could have gone to a lot of different countries. They chose Canada. So while they want to feel that they've got a home and comfort from where they came from, they also want to feel that they're part of Canada. So that's also a very delicate balance in messaging and how we bring that opportunity to light.

00:29:04:12 - 00:29:12:06 Alison So Ashley, beyond representation and advertising, how do you think brands can better understand and authentically meet the needs of diverse audiences?

00:29:12:07 - 00:29:34:15 Ashley Yeah, so I know for us personally at Kruger, we rely very heavily on our multicultural agency partner to help fill in those knowledge gaps. Again, to help bring that insight of how to connect with the audience in an authentic way. And I think Eva brought up a great point. It's really delivering of how you incorporate your product and brand into their everyday life, but ensuring you're delivering on that authenticity, which I think is extremely important.

00:29:34:15 - 00:29:51:18 Ashley And again, we really heavily rely on our agency partner to help fill in some of these gaps because it's okay not to understand and know everything. So that's that's one thing that we do at Kruger that I think is really helpful to us in focusing on an agency that specializes in that area and really draws insights and helps guide us.

00:29:51:20 - 00:30:12:17 Alison That's great. So now we're going to tackle the elephant in the room. And the topic that none of us can avoid. So is Gen AI an amazing opportunity for the marketing profession are going to cost us all our jobs? So I'm going to open it up to the panel. Do you see Gen AI more like the metaverse, which ended up being a bit more hype than substance or the internet, which fundamentally changed the world.

00:30:12:20 - 00:30:14:14 Alison Eva, what would you say?

00:30:14:16 - 00:30:36:05 Eva Hey, I called the metaverse being more hype than substance back in the day. No, I think Gen AI is seismic, transformative, massive beyond what my simple mind can comprehend. It's not a shiny object. It is a new era that we are embarking on.

00:30:36:07 - 00:30:38:12 Alison And Ashley, what would you say?

00:30:38:14 - 00:31:05:13 Ashley I would say that initially the hype was there, against it, very similar to the metaverse. To me, it's a very daunting subject and I do believe that the substance is there, that it will fundamentally change the way marketers exist. However, similar to Eva, I don't even know if I can comprehend those fundamental changes yet. So I do believe that the hype was there, but I also believe that it will fundamentally change the way forward.

00:31:05:15 - 00:31:07:13 Alison And Steve, your views.

00:31:07:15 - 00:31:26:03 Steve I can't really add to the two comments made. I would agree. The only point I might make is I'm, it sounds to me how many teams we I'm sure many of you have are engaged both in this country and globally on trying to understand where it fits, where we might train people and what we might do with it next.

00:31:26:03 - 00:31:30:11 Steve So it's there's an awful lot of activity going on for sure.

00:31:30:13 - 00:31:48:23 Alison So let's turn to the audience. Raise your hand if you think Gen AI is more like the metaverse? One taker. Or more like the internet? Okay, so Eva, I'd love you to share how your organization is approaching the integration of Gen AI.

00:31:49:01 - 00:32:21:14 Eva First of all, I don't think I can probably express the early days part of things. I think we're all very much in early days, and so trying to foretell or foresee something this massive is daunting. Having said that, I think waiting and not doing anything is not an option either. So the big quote right now is, you know, will AI replace me and my job? And the answer is it won't replace you and your job.

00:32:21:14 - 00:32:48:17 Eva But people who understand AI will. And I actually do believe that I think there will be a shake up, no question, that doesn't worry me so much, because I feel like people are resourceful and bright, and we will figure out our role in the AI world. There will be a phase of you can call it disruption, if you're being positive, or you can call it chaos if you're being negative.

00:32:48:19 - 00:33:18:12 Eva But at the end of the day, I don't believe we're all going to be replaced by AI and no one's going to have a job. And you know, we're all just going to sit on sofas and think thoughts and those things are going to come to being. I do think there is massive opportunity on all levels what that looks like, I'm not sure about, but I do know that it's going to require engaging in AI. At Canadian Tire

00:33:18:12 - 00:33:40:16 Eva We made a commitment early days, and no one thinks of Canadian Tire in this way, because we're 100 years old and we're a bricks and mortar, largely bricks and mortar chain. But we did. You know, we signed a deal with Microsoft about two years ago where we have a partnership with them on the AI side, we have a team that is dedicated to AI technologies.

00:33:40:18 - 00:34:06:23 Eva They go around, having the teams isnot the hard part. It's the using that team to educate everyone around them. That's the hard part. So they are constantly doing roadshows and keeping everyone apprized of what's happening in the space. And then we even took it a step further, where our CEO has asked his senior leadership team to include AI technologies in their KPIs, in our scorecards of how we're measured.

00:34:07:01 - 00:34:37:12 Eva   So the amount of time we spent on ChatGPT, sharing best practices on hat, all that kind of cross-pollinizaation and learning together and seeing it as an opportunity to upscale ourselves and upscale our teams is kind of the approach that we're having. I, I really don't believe at the end of the day that there will be a, there will be an efficiency play, there's no question.

00:34:37:14 - 00:35:05:12 Eva But I feel like there will be opportunities for people to add value in different ways than they're currently adding value. So I don't think it's going to be a big, you know, let's cut entire departments and entire groups. But I think there will be shifts in what, what and how people work. And if you can be a part of that, I think things are going to be really exciting.

00:35:05:14 - 00:35:16:00 Eva And if for whatever reason, people choose to like, white knuckle it and pretend this stuff doesn't exist, I think it's going to be a hard fought battle.

00:35:16:01 - 00:35:23:14 Alison Agreed. So, Ashley, what do you see as some of the early implications for creativity, content creation, and some of the key marketing functions?

00:35:23:16 - 00:35:46:19 Ashley I think as far as AI think some of the big things that I, I personally like to use at stores ideation, brainstorming, really kind of kicking off, using it as a tool in the marketer's toolkit, just again, to really look at it as not again, replacing jobs or replacing thinking, but really using it as ideation to kick off content creation and stuff like that.

00:35:46:19 - 00:36:05:23 Ashley So I think, again, it's just another tool that marketers are going to be using. And that's again, personally how I've started implementing it. And we've started implementing it through our marketing department. And again, just getting ourselves familiar with it and to see the longer term impacts that it can have. But just something as simple as an ideation is really the starting point.

00:36:06:01 - 00:36:28:02 Alison So now we're going to switch gears. Attracting and retaining marketing talent across generations is obviously pivotal to the ongoing success of our profession. So I would like to start with you, Ashley, because you're a terrific example of a talented marketer early in your career, who of all the professions you could have chose upon graduating, chose marketing. So what attracted you to marketing and what would you like to see from the profession moving forward?

00:36:28:04 - 00:36:55:18 Ashley Yeah, I think what initially attracted me to the marketing profession is just the role that brands can have in the lives of, of humans. I remember watching I think it was The Dove, the Real Beauty campaign, and sitting there with goosebumps and just seeing the work and the impact that these brands can have on young women and again, that was kind of my first introduction to really sitting there saying, wow, this is this is really important and impactful of what brands can do.

00:36:55:20 - 00:37:19:20 Ashley I think what keeps me there, in the marketing profession is being able to work on campaigns like, that's what Kruger Products. I've been able to work on a campaign called The Cashmere Collection, where it's a funds and awareness raiser for the breast cancer cause. So despite it being bathroom tissue, how we've spun this partnership is that we work with designers across Canada, and they'll build these gorgeous couture gowns out of bathroom tissue.

00:37:19:22 - 00:37:36:07 Ashley And we have a massive campaign around that and raise funds and awareness for the breast cancer cause. And just seeing the impact that that makes on the lives of Canadians, this is so rewarding. And again, I think that's initially what attracted me into the marketing profession, but it's also what's kept me here again for the past few years.

00:37:36:07 - 00:37:56:06 Ashley So that's played an important role in what's motivated me. I think as far as what I would like to see within the profession is leaning a little bit more into humanity. I think as we talk about the clutter within the marketing space, what's really resonating with consumers is building that emotional connection. I think that also helps with the long term sustainability of brands.

00:37:56:06 - 00:38:12:02 Ashley So I would like to see us leaning into a little bit more of humanity. And I think it's important, I think consumers now more than ever, even coming out of that post-Covid world, they see right through. So it's really connecting with them in an emotional way. So bringing more of humanity, I think, into this space is something that motivates me.

00:38:12:02 - 00:38:15:05 Ashley It's what got me here and something I would like to see more of.

00:38:15:07 - 00:38:39:11 Alison Well, it's also it builds on the superpower of marketers that we talked about earlier. And it also when you think about one of the things that will differentiate us from gen AI, we will always be able to do humanity better than any machine for sure, no matter how good the technology. So, Steve, I know that your daughter shared some advice to you when it comes to, what do we need to do to make marketing a more appealing long term career path and retain top talent?

00:38:39:13 - 00:39:02:11 Steve So I think I think that kind of leads in, if you like, to the concept of ageism. And a fact of the matter is, you know, we've always had a talent pipeline inevitability. So unless your organization is growing by double or triple digits, there are limited opportunities, which essentially means that people reach a certain age and then they're out.

00:39:02:13 - 00:39:24:06 Steve And in some professions, certainly in marketing, most certainly in advertising, but not exclusively in those, you know, that top end is much lower than it used to be. You know, once you hit 50 in marketing and advertising, you know, to some degree you're starting to get out of the game. It's as I said, it's not a new thing, but it probably is more pronounced than it was in the past.

00:39:24:08 - 00:39:48:13 Steve And I know that my daughter of 34, who's been in marketing for 10 or 12 years now, there are issues that she and I would most certainly disagree on, you know, issues that relate to how to collaborate, how to mentor, how to build business. And ultimately, and this is what Alison's getting at, is ultimately her view would be, Dad, you know, you've got to get out of the way.

00:39:48:15 - 00:39:57:07 Steve But that would be ultimately, that would be her view. I, and I think there's some truth to that. I do think there's some truth to that.

00:39:57:09 - 00:40:02:17 Alison So Eva, how would you build on that? What are we going to do to retain top talent and keep them engaged?

00:40:02:19 - 00:40:27:13 Eva Two things, I would say, continuing to stay relevant and apprized of everything that's happening, the staying curious, continuing to grow, continuing to learn, you know, the digital transformation that's been happening for the last decade and will continue to happen into the future, all that kind of stuff. I think we owe it to ourselves to stay at the forefront of all those things if we want to stay in the game.

00:40:27:15 - 00:40:58:11 Eva So that's on the one side, and on the other side is truly growing the pie, growing our scope of influence so that we're not staying in one silo. And there's only one way to move up to that next level. And it's by bumping the person who's ahead of you out of it. The broader we are in our ability to speak intelligently on things, be able to take on different responsibilities, the better off the entire industry will be.

00:40:58:13 - 00:41:31:11 Eva And I, I'm I will say I'm very optimistic on that side of it. For marketers, if I were to bet on a discipline to be able to go broad, it is marketers, partially because of the AI side and the creative thinking, and partially because I do think the way that marketers are brought up, or like come into it, is with the fulsome view to the customer, and that is a different perspective than most people have.

00:41:31:13 - 00:41:57:20 Eva So I am I'm bullish on it. I think I'll tell you a funny story. When I initially took on ESG, I went to a seminar and I was talking to a guy who was like an expert, and he knew all these things and I knew nothing. And he's like, you know, I'm really happy. And I thought he thought I was a bit of a whatever, because I didn't know all the acronyms and all the regulations and all the whatever.

00:41:57:20 - 00:42:24:16 Eva It's a very technical business. And he said, I'm really happy to see a marketer heading up ESG for a retailer. And I was like, why? And he said, because, you know, we need the people who convinced people that smoking was healthy to convince people that this is a real issue. And so I think we tend to underestimate our role even in on the IR side.

00:42:24:17 - 00:42:28:03 Eva Like to say I know very little on the investor

00:42:28:03 - 00:42:29:05 Speaker 2 Relations side

00:42:29:05 - 00:42:51:07 Eva Is an understatement. But when you read the releases, it's like number after number 2% up, 1.2% down, one of that of this was up. That category was down. The ability to tell a story to the street so that they remember you and what you're trying. These are all skills that we have and that I think are transferable across disciplines.

00:42:51:07 - 00:43:01:02 Eva And I think at the end of the day, will be the things that make us sought after if we're interested in continuing to learn and grow.

00:43:01:04 - 00:43:20:10 Alison Great point. And the other thing from a credibility and growing the pie for us as a profession, to get the credit we deserve for the positive impact we have on growing businesses and Canada's GDP is another really powerful way that we can collectively grow the pie. So, Steve, you called out ageism. It is absolutely a reality in our profession.

00:43:20:12 - 00:43:37:21 Alison And when we did the CMA DEI research last year and we've just come out a field again this year, we found that it's actually a lot younger than we thought. So when you're in your late 40s on the brand side, you're now seen as getting old. Agency it's even worse if you're in your late 30s. That's starting to be seen as old.

00:43:37:21 - 00:43:52:03 Alison So clearly, for those of us that have passed both of those milestones, that's a little concerning. How do we better leverage the experience of seasoned marketers and address ageism in our industry? Eva, why don't I kick it off with you?

00:43:52:05 - 00:44:25:14 Eva Yeah, I mean, I think it's a lot of the stuff I've been saying around staying relevant and up to date and whatever. It does make me laugh that, you know, we have two very aged potential US presidential candidates running for office, and we're talking about people in their 40s and 50s. I also think it's interesting, marketing traditionally has been more of a female-led industry, and ageism is more rampant in it than I would say, no one's talking about

00:44:25:14 - 00:44:47:18 Eva A 52 year old CFO as being too old. So there's there's things that I think we need to kind of acknowledge and be aware of. But once again, I think staying relevant, learning, growing insulates you as much as you can, and growing the pie and being able and open to move into different disciplines and different parts of the business, all of that.

00:44:47:18 - 00:44:55:15 Eva I think it's the only way, not just in marketing, but in life, to stay relevant and learning and curious. It's all good.

00:44:55:17 - 00:44:57:03 Alison Steve, what would you add?

00:44:57:05 - 00:45:21:21 Steve I'd say two things? The first is, I think that both organizations and individuals need to think about the idea that someone who's 55, for argument's sake, doesn't actually have to be in or out. They could actually be somewhere in the middle. They could be someone that that had a leadership role and took a step back and now plays a different role.

00:45:21:23 - 00:45:37:13 Steve That would be the first point. The second point, to come back to the conversation with my daughter, would be that I do think there's a difference between being really smart and really experienced. I don't think the two things are the same.

00:45:37:15 - 00:45:41:11 Alison And Ashley, what would you say from being earlier in your career?

00:45:41:13 - 00:46:01:05 Ashley Yeah, I think I might be a little naive to say this, but I don't necessarily think it's about age. I think it's about being open-minded and having the right people at the table. Yes, age can offer different viewpoints, but I think as long as people are open again, as Steve mentioned, change and adapting and being agile and again, just having an open mind, I think that's really important.

00:46:01:06 - 00:46:19:01 Alison Well, that's like any stereotype. There are quote unquote younger people who aren't embracing Gen AI, and then there are quote unquote older people who are actually becoming very well-positioned and very open to change. So you can't stereotype a 30 year old, a 50 year old or a sixty year old. And that's really important for us to certainly remember.

00:46:19:03 - 00:46:31:13 Alison So before we open it up for questions from the audience, I'd love to close off our discussion by having each of you share one piece of advice that you would give for the marketers that have joined us today. And Ashley I'm going to ask you to kick things off.

00:46:31:19 - 00:46:51:20 Ashley Yeah, I think my biggest piece of advice is to never stop learning. I think within the marketing professions, we talked about the ever-shifting dynamics and as a new technology. So that's something that as soon as I entered in my career, I wanted to say yes to every opportunity, be in every room that I could be in and really absorb as much as I could at the beginning of my career.

00:46:51:20 - 00:47:02:14 Ashley But I'm still finding five years later in my career that learning is the biggest opportunity, and to never say no to that and just to keep that in the back of my mind as I progress through my career.

00:47:02:16 - 00:47:05:12 Alison Great advice. Eva, what would you say?

00:47:05:14 - 00:47:28:23 Eva Really, the same thing. I think learning is the key. Staying at the table. There will be times in your career where I think you're not that excited at where your boss is terrible, or your job is terrible, or the company's struggling or whatever. I think my advice would be find ways to stay at the table. It will not look the same always.

00:47:29:00 - 00:48:00:06 Eva And it doesn't mean you need to lean in with your heart and soul every day of every year. But just stay, figure it out, and then constantly be looking for ways to change and morph and, move yourself forward. I think that's been the biggest thing. And  also, PSA, especially for women, I find there are times in female careers in particular where it gets really hard and pulling out starts feeling like that might be the best play.

00:48:00:08 - 00:48:09:11 Eva Find a way, even if it's in a reduced capacity or different capacity, to always have a foot in the door. At the very least.

00:48:09:12 - 00:48:33:09 Alison That's great advice. No matter how much we love our profession and career, there will be days and sometimes weeks or months where it really kind of stinks. I will say, looking back on it, the worst boss I ever had was probably the boss I learned the most from, because I knew exactly what I did not want to do, and the hard situations and finding a way through them that you're building resilience and you're adapting to change and you're adapting to adversity.

00:48:33:09 - 00:48:38:22 Alison And those are mission critical skills from a marketer's perspective. Steve, how would you close it out?

00:48:39:00 - 00:49:18:20 Steve I would say that to the extent that you can, be a student of history, because the past, to varying degrees, is a reasonably good predictor of the future. And so, I don't know, 35 years from today, what we'll be saying about AI and the impact that it may or may not have had in 2023 and 24? But what I would say to you, and I'm going to use a prop for this, is if I go back 35 years, who would have known what impact this would have had when I bought it 35 years ago?

00:49:18:22 - 00:49:27:15 Steve You know, for all of those of you in the room today who have iPhone fifteens, here's where it started. I still have it. I don't use it today, but I still have it.

00:49:27:15 - 00:49:33:20 Alison I remember how revolutionary that was when it came out too, right? It's actually, Ashley  is looking at us all...

00:49:33:20 - 00:49:38:15 Ashley I was gonna say, I've never seen that

00:49:38:17 - 00:49:39:19 Ashley There's some weight behind that.

00:49:39:20 - 00:49:41:07 Steve Yeah. You should see

00:49:41:07 - 00:49:44:13 Steve The device that charges it. That's three times bigger.

00:49:44:13 - 00:49:47:00 Eva Remember the scene on Wall Street.

00:49:47:00 - 00:49:48:02 Eva Where he's on 

00:49:48:02 - 00:49:50:23 Eva The beach and he's on the phone. It was like my plan.

00:49:51:01 - 00:49:58:08 Steve I've actually kept every single cell phone that I've had, and there's like 16 of them over the years.

00:49:58:10 - 00:50:13:23 Alison Wow. I wonder what the value of that collection is. You might want to look into that. So on that note, we're now going to open it up to the audience for questions. For those that are joining us virtually, they can call in their questions as well. And then for those that are here in person, Lynn has a mic ready to go.

00:50:14:01 - 00:50:32:14 Presenter Hi, my name is Muhammad. First of all, thanks a lot for the insights. So my question is basically as we sit here, you know, the all the marketers here, we are at the forefront of the organizations. Right. So it's about the hype versus reality. Every now and then we see the hype coming about market trend coming about.

00:50:32:16 - 00:50:51:16 Presenter It could be EV, it could be crypto, it could be AI to, you know, metadata whatnot. So as organizations and those who are in the forefront should be really invest and gain the first mover advantage, or should we sit back and wait for what market has to offer. So this is something that I would like to really get your idea about.

00:50:51:16 - 00:50:52:01 Presenter Thanks.   00:50:52:05 - 00:50:54:09 Alison Eva, do you want to kick it off? 

00:50:54:11 - 00:51:15:04 Eva I'll take that. Not the answer you're going to want to hear, but it depends. It depends on your core business and what it matters. How it affects your business. Early adopters. It tends to be expensive. It tends to have a lot of mistakes, a lot of false starts. Not everybody has the stomach for that. And you can't do that in everything.

00:51:15:06 - 00:51:38:03 Eva You really can't. And if you're big enough, you can often wait for the little guys to hammer out the things and then just catch up to them really fast because you have deeper pockets. So it depends on what it is. Just because you mentioned EV, for instance, Canadian Tire obviously has a massive automotive business, a massive product business and a service business.

00:51:38:05 - 00:52:02:01 Eva We can't afford to catch up in the EV space. It's too much of our business. So we are investing heavily and some of that money will be misspent. And we know that it will be because it's early days. But that is something that is core to our business. There are other things that wie'l wait for others to flesh it out, and then we'll get on the train.

00:52:02:03 - 00:52:04:01 Eva So I think it just kind of depends.

00:52:04:03 - 00:52:27:10 Steve So, sounds like a self-serving comment, but it's not. If I think back about with regard to the things that the we do in the world in the past, almost all of them would have been about the present. You know, a product, an advertising campaign, a customer satisfaction related issue. I'd say a third of what we do today is about context.

00:52:27:12 - 00:52:37:04 Steve And I'd suggest to you that businesses that really understand the context within which they live are much better equipped to make decisions about whether they should take a risk or not.

00:52:37:06 - 00:52:39:15 Alison Great point. Next question, Peter.

00:52:39:17 - 00:53:02:08 Steve Thank you. Peter Rodriguez. Brand Igniter. How do we accelerate the adoption of Gen AI to create value in not only to save costs? How do we make it as second nature to us as marketers, instead of fearing it? How do we make it more a regular part of our lives? I'd love to know. What advice would you have for us?

00:53:02:08 - 00:53:02:18 Steve Thank you very much.

00:53:02:18 - 00:53:24:12 Eva Much. I mean, I, I feel bad because I'm part of a massive organization that has teams that do these things, and they come to your office and they sit with you and they tell you, you should be looking at this, and why don't you try that? I realize most people don't have that. I would say it's on us to start using the tools that we know about.

00:53:24:15 - 00:53:57:04 Eva So certainly ChatGPT. Everyone, my daughter is   in university and they all use it to write their LinkedIn profiles. So it's like finding ways that you can be familiar with the parts of AI that are out there and figuring out how to massage them, how you put the parameters. Our HR department, for instance, has started doing job descriptions through AI, and they put in the specs and the guardrails, and it takes a while to figure out how to really use it effectively.

00:53:57:04 - 00:54:24:01 Eva But you need to largely, I would say small and medium sized businesses and individuals, need to kind of take the onus on themselves to get themselves at seminars or at places where people who understand the space are talking about it and be reading, be curious, be on it, maybe find people who are closer to that industry and connect with them organically.

00:54:24:03 - 00:54:46:02 Eva All the Microsofts and the IBM's and now Google's. Like, if you have contacts in those spheres, those are good people to tap on the shoulder and just have conversations with about the space. But it's I mean, it's so massive, like we have people dedicated to it, so it's hard to do it off the side of the corner of your desk.

00:54:46:02 - 00:54:53:09 Eva On top of that, 89,000 other things you're doing. But to the extent that you can, I think it's worth it.

00:54:53:11 - 00:55:12:08 Ashley And I think just to Eva's point, I think it's about just getting comfortable with it, like acknowledging that this isn't going anywhere. The onus is on you to adopt to this new technology. So that's one thing that I'm really trying to adapt my mindset to is really being comfortable with it. And then when it does become a fundamental part, being confident in how that will be implemented.

00:55:12:10 - 00:55:39:05 Eva And the other thing I would say is know that no one really knows. And I find that like, there might be, you know, a handful of experts, but this is early, early in the race. There really aren't that many people that are light years ahead of what the average Joe is in the space. I think once it starts really going kind of mainstream, it will just accelerate exponentially.

00:55:39:07 - 00:56:00:10 Alison And representing a much smaller organization, there are a lot of tools out there that are actually very cost effective to use, so you don't have to be spending hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars to access the tools, and then just start experimenting and playing. We've done a lot of piloting at the CMA, in part to help understand and future-proof the profession and part to enable our team as well.

00:56:00:16 - 00:56:22:02 Alison And it's much more accessible and affordable than you might realize. I also think from an SME perspective, which is 80% of county's economy, when you understand some of the efficiency plays, not just marketing related, but more broadly business related, it can be a really powerful leveller and make us much more competitive with much bigger organizations as well.

00:56:22:04 - 00:56:22:21 Alison Next question.

00:56:23:02 - 00:56:41:10 Speaker 6 Hello Derek from Guideline SMI. Thanks for sharing your perspectives this morning. So this question is more for Eva and Ashley. I was just wondering if you could share kind of the role of the agency, whether that's media buying, planning and creative in-house, external in your two organizations. And then for the three of you if you choose to answer

00:56:41:10 - 00:56:47:13 Speaker 6 the second part is just wondering how you see that evolving over the next 3 to 5 years, the role of the agency.

00:56:47:19 - 00:57:13:16 Ashley Yeah, I can kick it off. So at Kruger Products we have a very lean marketing department. So we do rely very heavily on our agency partners. We have a creative agency, we have a media agency. We have a multicultural marketing agency. We have sponsorship agency. So we're really robust in leaning on our agency partners. I think moving forward, again, it's it's taking advantage of those organizations that specialize in these areas.

00:57:13:16 - 00:57:22:20 Ashley I think it's okay not to know everything and really lean on people who do specialize in those areas. So I do see that being the trend moving forward is heavily relying on agency partners.

00:57:22:20 - 00:57:44:11 Eva Yeah, I would agree with that. I think we take our agency relationships very seriously. We've had the same partners for long periods of time, and we have hybrids. We have, you know, a media agency that does some of our buying, but we do some of it internally. We do some of our creative internally, we do some of our creative with agencies, sort of a combination.

00:57:44:11 - 00:58:18:00 Eva I'd say we have a hybrid model, but the need for agencies I don't see going away anytime soon. I think the type of work, the type of thinking, having an external perspective is invaluable. I think brands can get into trouble if they only talk to themselves all the time, and our agencies tend to hold us accountable on stuff in terms of things that you can say, things where you're just kind of talking to yourself, all that sort of stuff.

00:58:18:02 - 00:58:46:01 Eva So I think that continues on and will continue on. I will say, as someone who's been in the field forever, the days of, you know, really temperamental, diva-like, creative from agencies, I think there's been a lot of push back on that side of things. And I think agencies have been really good at evolving and pivoting and growing past that.

00:58:46:01 - 00:59:19:10 Eva So there's been adoption and change on both sides. Sometimes I miss the diva-esque days because you did get great creative. There's a lot of carnage in the wake and whatever, but creative genius and creative like really compelling creative. You don't come across that as often as sometimes I think it would be nice to come across. So it's a tough one because in some ways I feel like we've sucked that out of them, and then we judge them for not having it.

00:59:19:12 - 00:59:22:03 Eva so I think it's finding the happy balance.

00:59:22:05 - 00:59:25:12 Alison So, Steve, you can clearly have some thoughts to share too.

00:59:25:14 - 00:59:54:20 Steve And notwithstanding the the Kruger and Canadian Tire view of the world, I think first of all, that agencies have ceded some of what they used to have to the advent of influencers and the explosion of creators. That would be my first point. The second point is a little sad, in the sense that I think the agency model is, I don't know if it's broken, but it needs repair.

00:59:54:20 - 01:00:19:18 Steve And if, if, if you if you ever want to read a great book on this, it's not about the world of creative. It's about the world of managing advertising businesses. Because they have to do that. They have to manage businesses. The book is called Madison Avenue Manslaughter, and it's by a guy called Michael Farmer. It's a it's a short read, but well worth it.

01:00:19:19 - 01:00:22:01 Steve He's a finance guy. That's right.

01:00:22:03 - 01:00:23:03 Alison Next question.

01:00:23:05 - 01:00:44:14 Speaker 7 Hey, thank you so much for the time spent over here. Really insightful. I'm a new person in Canada who's 13th month going right now. So I've seen the country from a different light coming over here after 44 years of my life. A 43, actually. My birthday is this weekend, so, when we came over here, it looked very different.

01:00:44:14 - 01:01:06:19 Speaker 7   Obviously it is different. The entire neighborhood concept of living, each and every market is nearby. So it was difficult for me to understand how businesses operate over here to start with. And, you know, understanding few data points, like 80% is SME. And you talked about price differentiation is not a differentiation anymore. And reason for that is product differentiation doesn't exist.

01:01:06:21 - 01:01:33:12 Speaker 7 Now, in my view, this is that Canada as a market is not a volume based market. It is a value based market. There is there is no MRP, there's no maximum retail price. So people operate, offer same product at different price points and play a distribution game. And therefore people don't push for differentiation in this country. But a lot of differentiation product line happens outside and we are seeing innovation happening more outside in Canada.

01:01:33:14 - 01:01:35:17 Speaker 7 So your view on that.

01:01:35:18 - 01:02:12:18 Eva I don't know that there's an outside and an inside anymore. I feel like I can literally know the price of a barbecue at a retailer in China in two minutes, less than two minutes. So I feel in that way it's a great equalizer and that you know what is happening around the world and it's very transparent. It does cost different amounts to operate in different countries, however, and we do know that Canada is a more expensive country to operate in, both from a distribution perspective, from a labour perspective, from a bunch of other perspectives.

01:02:12:20 - 01:02:39:00 Eva So you do have different price structures in this country than you do in other countries. You also have brands that are independent, like Canadian brands competing with Goliaths, who are international brands, like going up against Walmart and Amazon is not for the faint of heart. It's very hard to do that as a Canadian company. So you see all of that come together.

01:02:39:02 - 01:03:03:21 Eva And what is our product assortment and our pricing strategy? I don't think it's an inherent mentality difference. I think it's a cost of doing business in this country difference. And that's why you saw so many American retailers struggle here. Certainly from a bricks and mortar perspective, it just wasn't worth the effort for them. I don't know, which is a terrible thing to say, bu...

Alison Next question.

01:03:03:23 - 01:03:31:12  Speaker 8 Once again, thank you so much for sharing your insights. As a newcomer, when I came to Canada, like three years ago, I realized that, you know, there was so many strong brands that I wasn't exposed to when I was outside of Canada. So as marketers, do we feel like we are really doing a lot to, to expose our brands outside of Canada?

01:03:31:14 - 01:03:53:02 Speaker 8 Because I'm trying to think if you think of other countries, there are lots of brands that are operating here. But when you think of Canada, if you are out there, you can actually name a few brands that you see when you travel outside Canada. Thank you.

01:03:53:04 - 01:04:17:14 Eva Yeah, I mean, Canadian Tire, believe it or not, back in the day and Adrian's in the audience a long time ago did try and expand into the U.S. And there are a lot of Canadian brands that try and go into the U.S. The U.S. in particular, seems to be where most Canadian brands start when they expand. Tim Hortons has had on and off again, and I believe currently is expanded into the US.

01:04:17:16 - 01:04:40:17 Eva It's not for because I think we don't have a comparable product or that we couldn't to offer the same service or any of that. I think we're very competitive that way. I think it's just super expensive to go into the United States. And I think the competition is fierce, and I think you need to have the stomach for it.

01:04:40:17 - 01:05:19:15 Eva And I think a lot of Canadian companies have figured out this country, have the infrastructure in place in this country have gotten to a point where the profitability is at a place that they're comfortable with, and shaking that up to take on a beast that is exporting into the U.S. is not in everyone's appetite. I will say on the e-commerce side, the pure play side, the the things where you don't require as much infrastructure investment, you see a lot of Canadians going after international markets and thriving.

01:05:19:17 - 01:05:32:23 Eva So I think it just depends on the type of business and how much investment versus reaping profits and money you want  to sign yourself up for as a CEO.

01:05:33:01 - 01:06:02:15 Steve Yeah, I would add to that by reiterating a point that came up earlier. One is that it's about risk tolerance and opportunity and great example I can think of from not so long ago was being at a bank  presentation. We were at a bank and we were talking about newcomers and someone in the audience asked the question of themselves, not of us, about what they were doing with regard to newcomers.

01:06:02:15 - 01:06:27:10 Steve And one of the marketers made the point that there was a lot of collateral that they developed. And the question then was, is there someone else? Is there another bank that's doing something different? And the answer was, yes, there is. Another bank had opened a branch in Beijing, in the embassy. You tell me which one is a bigger commitment to newcomers and a bigger risk in the process.

01:06:27:12 - 01:06:37:04 Steve So there's a spectrum. I think, of how marketers approach this stuff, and it's very much related to risk tolerance and opportunity.

01:06:37:06 - 01:06:54:16 Alison Great example. I think we have time for one more question. 

Speaker 9 Hi. I'm Thrity and I think when you pulled out that cordless phone, I was actually a part of the whole transition. I've seen my dad using that, and I see how I have technically like transformed him to an iPhone now.

01:06:54:18 - 01:06:56:00 Speaker 9 So my question.

01:06:56:00 - 01:07:07:07 Speaker 9 Is how marketers can use consumer data and insight to inform the development of emotional, compelling campaigns with the power of AI generation. Like how you mentioned it before.

01:07:07:08 - 01:07:24:10 Eva Yeah. I mean, the use of data right now, I think is what everyone is going to be living and dying by. And that amount of first party data you have that you can access is going to be the key to all of this, because of all of the regulations that are about to start happening and all that kind of stuff.

01:07:24:12 - 01:07:59:07 Eva But if I were to put my market - s  o that's the functional side. But my marketing hat says to the extent that we offer people value for that relationship, where they are getting something out of the fact that we know more about them and that we can make them more targeted offers that are relevant for them, and we can give them experiences that make their life better for them, that are easier, etc. that's a value exchange that I think customers would sign up for because they're getting something out of that.

01:07:59:09 - 01:08:25:13 Eva I think the minute it becomes about having data for our own ability to extend our reach, just because we want you to know random stuff in the hopes that something sticks because we know you're not watching television anymore. I think that's where customers are getting really savvy and will have very little patience and tolerance for it going forward.

01:08:25:15 - 01:08:46:21 Eva So I think it's really on us to make sure that the data and the information that we have is being used in a way to create value for customers, so they will want to keep the relationship going, because without that, we're just going to be noise and we're just going to irritate people. And it could go either way right now.

01:08:46:21 - 01:08:50:19 Eva It really depends. I think we need to really hold ourselves accountable for that.

01:08:50:21 - 01:09:14:23 Alison And building on what Eva said, we did some research with Canadian consumers that at the beginning of the year to understand what they think from a privacy perspective, and 75% of Canadians are comfortable sharing their data with brands provided there is value in that. So you're absolutely right, when it comes down to the value equation, and in today's economy, the number one thing they're looking for is some sort of price discount, special offer.

01:09:15:01 - 01:09:34:16 Alison but beyond that they're also open. And the other thing they want is, it has to be a brand they trust, and they have to have control so that they can opt out easily at any point in time. But they are absolutely open to sharing their data, provided they're getting something tangible and quantifiable back from the brand in the market, or that they're sharing data with.

01:09:34:18 - 01:09:37:07 Alison So we have one last question.

01:09:37:09 - 01:10:12:21 Speaker 10  Hi, my name is Mitch. I just have a question. It's a little bit broad there, but as you notice that with new technology, the biggest challenge, especially that we don't talk about is actually data privacy and protection of data. So, you know, with ChatGPT being, publicly stating that they do collect your data, and as a majority of marketers now use ChatGPT, how can we be very vigilant of how our data is being used and especially with like what we're putting in, because let's be honest, like not, we're not we're not monitoring everyone what they're using and inputting.

01:10:12:23 - 01:10:24:12 Speaker 10 What have you noticed especially and what are you what have you guys been doing in your brand to prevent from any privacy being breached? And I think that's the problem we all face in our generation now.

01:10:24:16 - 01:10:53:23 Eva Massive, massive, massive issue. Once again, we have the luxury of being a big organization. We have things that are policed. Only certain people can access certain things. We have our own version of ChatGPT that we call chat ChatCT, because we wanted to control the information that our employees were having access to, and we didn't want people to be able to see what we were accessing on it.

01:10:54:01 - 01:11:30:03 Eva So privacy is massive. I think, I can't begin to guess how much more of an issue it's going to be. When we talked initially about AI and I was giving my optimistic work force view to AI, because I ultimately do think that's going to be okay. The area that I am less sure about is when it comes to privacy, when it comes to political things, when it comes to wars and big government and all that kind of stuff.

01:11:30:05 - 01:11:58:01 Eva That stuff terrifies me. I think there will be a massive amount of information and very few people's hands who will be able to see a lot of things, and where that nets us out, I'm not sure about. So yes, I would say to that extent that you can have privacy departments and measures and your organizations and measures in your life

01:11:58:01 - 01:12:22:22 Eva personally, I think that behooves all of us. And then just for us to be vocal global citizens as to what we're willing to tolerate and what we're not willing to tolerate as this technology progresses. And if you think of like, social media, people weren't really paying attention. And then before you know it, your kid's on his phone for 12 hours a day and you're like, oh my God, this is a problem.

01:12:23:00 - 01:12:29:02 Eva We can't afford to let that happen with AI. We have a personal responsibility.

01:12:29:04 - 01:12:53:01 Steve You know, which profession is going to benefit the most from AI in the short term? Now, which profession? That's right. The legal guys are going to go nuts with this. We're going to see whole practices in the legal world spawn. On the scary side, I agree with Eva, but I would if you haven't seen this example, I would draw your attention to it.

01:12:53:03 - 01:13:11:22 Steve It's Reid Hoffman, has anyone see Reid Hoffman's interview with his digital twin? If you haven't seen it, go check it out. Reid Hoffman of LinkedIn does an interview with his digital twin. Have you seen it? Yeah. Is it not amazing? It's terrifying. That's right. There you go. 

01:13:11:22 - 01:13:30:20 Alison Great.  So I want to say a huge thank you to Steve and Ashley for a really great conversation. I also love the level of engagement from our audience today. We have officially now kicked off our inaugural CMA Marketing Week. It's the first day of a very busy week. Tomorrow is our Gen AI Day. We have offered up four different training sessions.

01:13:31:01 - 01:13:48:12 Alison Two of them are for free and for members only. I'm sorry to say, they're completely sold out. We have two others with a few spaces left, though, and then we're going to wrap the day tomorrow with a Gen AI panel, led by some of our senior members that have a deep specialization in this, and I think there's a few seats left for that as well.

01:13:48:14 - 01:14:12:00 Alison On Wednesday, we have our CMA Future Proof Signature event. It's an afternoon event followed by some networking, and so we'll be able to learn a lot during the afternoon. And then come together and raise a toast to the profession that we all love. And then on Thursday, we have our Thought Leadership Day. And we've got two great panels, one around future Canadian consumers and one around Women in Sports

01:14:12:00 - 01:14:35:12 Alison and the amazing opportunity that that represents for marketers and brands moving forward. So very much looking forward to a jam-packed week. I think we have close to 2000 people that have registered for a series of the event. So looking forward to seeing a lot of you at our future events as well. And thanks again to Eva, Steve and Ashley for a great conversation.

01:14:35:13 - 01:14:48:05 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA's CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Scott Megginson, President of Kantar Canada, to discuss how marketers can stay ahead in a rapidly changing business landscape. Scott shares his perspective on the seismic shifts in consumer insights, the most significant changes in Canadian consumer behaviour, and how data democratization and AI are transforming the world of research.

00:00:03:06 - 00:00:23:04 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business news with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:06 - 00:00:50:17 Alison In the rapidly evolving business landscape, marketers are constantly seeking ways to stay ahead of the curve and drive truly meaningful growth for their organizations. But what if one of the keys to unlocking these new opportunities and gaining a competitive edge lies in the democratization of data and the adoption of innovative technologies? Today, I'm joined by Scott Megginson, president of Kantar Canada and a very seasoned insight leader with over two decades of experience on both the client and the agency side.

00:00:50:22 - 00:01:17:19 Alison Scott's also a regular guest speaker and coach for the research analytics program at George Brown College. Scott's here to share his perspectives on the seismic shifts that are happening in consumer insights and in the market research industry. We're also going to discuss how Kantar is leading the charge by making their vast troves of brand data accessible to marketers everywhere and at no cost, which is certainly a remarkable opportunity for brands and businesses and a bit of a surprising approach for a research company.

00:01:17:21 - 00:01:34:16 Alison So from navigating changing consumer behaviours to leveraging AI-powered tools and platforms, Scott is here to offer a wealth of knowledge and practical advice for marketers who are really looking to elevate the role of insights within your organizations and drive real business impact. Scott, it's truly a pleasure to welcome you here today.

00:01:34:21 - 00:01:43:09 Scott Thank you. Alison. I hate to admit it, but it's actually over three decades of experience and I'm going to date myself there. But thank you for making me a bit younger.

00:01:43:12 - 00:01:45:04 Alison You're aging very gracefully.

00:01:45:06 - 00:01:46:03 Scott I'm trying.

00:01:46:05 - 00:01:52:18 Alison So I want to start with what do you see as the most significant shifts in the Canadian consumer behaviour and attitudes right now?

00:01:52:20 - 00:02:16:01 Scott You know, it's an interesting question. Kantar isn't a public opinion company, but we do a lot of work monitoring consumer trends. We have a group within the company that manages our, runs our Canada Monitor. You know, if you're three decades like me, you might remember the yankelovich monitor. And this is just an evolution of that same, the same tool.

00:02:16:01 - 00:02:34:21 Scott And it's, really to monitor social trends, with consumers. I mean, this is opportune. We're going to be diving into this at the CMA CX event in June. We actually have our expert coming up to talk about some of these trends and how it impacts marketers. But, you know, when you think about top concerns of Canadians right now, they shifted.

00:02:34:22 - 00:03:00:08 Scott They shifted during the pandemic. And right now what we're seeing won't be a surprise - inflation, the economy, health care, housing costs and climate change, in that order are the top five. But there are a lot of implications for marketers. When we dig into it, Canadians are really in a frustrated state. They're frustrated. It feels like a stacked deck. They're impatient to get ahead right now.

00:03:00:10 - 00:03:17:23 Scott You know, they've been waiting and waiting and they're impatient to move ahead. Almost half believe that they'll become rich in their lifetime. And that was about a third of people in 2018 before the pandemic. So I don't know if people are buying more lottery tickets or waiting for the big ship to come in, but they want to be given a win, too.

00:03:17:23 - 00:03:42:22 Scott And that's something to think about with, for marketers. They're uninspired by innovation. It's something that we're seeing as well. They're uninspired by marketing as well. They're looking for relevance through emotion, value and control. Those three areas. So what they're really looking for is a reason. It's about giving them a reason. A higher proportion about quarter, don't pay any attention to advertising right now or claim to.

00:03:43:03 - 00:04:09:18 Scott And maybe it's more. So they're just not feeling they're getting the relevance or messaging. And another thing is they're looking for self care. And there's a whole set of implications here for people that work in wellness and health areas that could do a lot with it. But all brands can in a way because, you know, it's not just the wellness we think about with diet and other areas, but they're working with self care through things like novelty and nostalgia.

00:04:09:21 - 00:04:35:19 Scott We actually saw people are nostalgic for the pandemic, if you can believe that. Social connection, and they really just need a break and get off the treadmill a bit. And, you put these things together and it's really supported by, economists are now saying that Canada's productivity is, it's measured at point 3% versus 1.5 in the US. So it's, productivity is super low in Canada.

00:04:35:21 - 00:04:51:04 Scott But there are great opportunities for marketers. You know, marketers can give hope. They can inspire innovation. They can help people achieve their mental and physical health goals as well. So, you know, when there's a problem, there's a solution. There's a lot marketing can do for this.

00:04:51:06 - 00:05:11:12 Alison And that's very insightful and very instructive to know from a, certainly from a marketer and a brand perspective. It's a bit sad to see, certainly the level of productivity in Canada from a competitive sort of North American and global scale. That's certainly something that we, as a marketing profession, but every business really needs to be able to address.

00:05:11:13 - 00:05:22:01 Alison When you talked about a third not paying attention to advertising, I mean, that's been one of the challenges of marketers for a long time. But have you seen that increase where even more people just aren't paying attention?

00:05:22:03 - 00:05:40:17 Scott Yeah, I mean, in this particular measure, it has been an increase and it was about a quarter. But we have other data sources, other measures that we take that would look even higher than that. And, you know, a lot of it's a clutter and the noise, a lot of it's just the the challenges that media has, with ad blockers.

00:05:40:17 - 00:06:00:04 Scott And there's just so many ways to avoid advertising in general. But when you do have a captive audience, that's a problem. You know, if a quarter or more people aren't paying attention, all because of the cynicism they have towards the advertising, that's an issue. And that's gonna be a big issue to deliver messages. So it wasn't a surprise.

00:06:00:04 - 00:06:06:08 Scott It's been going this direction, but it is an opportunity to deliver better messaging to consumers.

00:06:06:13 - 00:06:18:00 Alison And when you were sharing some of the more recent findings, the one that certainly surprised me the most was people feeling a little bit melancholy and almost wishing back for the days of the pandemic. So what surprised you the most?

00:06:18:02 - 00:06:52:03 Scott So I'm a Gen-Xer, and a leading Gen-Xer, so, I grew up in office environments and and things like that. And I mean, as a person, it just befuddles me that people don't want to go back to the office and such. But as an employer, you know, I look at our younger employees that we have as well, or people with families and lifestyles changed so much during that, like just all the concepts of pet ownership and parenting and, and, dry cleaning, just everything else really, really changed.

00:06:52:03 - 00:07:12:16 Scott And that's why companies like Lululemon did so well. They reinvented workwear with leisurewear. You know, as a person, my age, I have trouble getting my head around it. I couldn't wait to get back. But it's pretty clear to see with how slow Return-to-Office has been with people, and some of the things that people are longing for are the different social connections.   00:07:12:16 - 00:07:30:14 Scott I think everybody out on their street, you know, having a drink together, at social distance, and there's a whole new level of social connection that started during the pandemic that's starting to get disrupted, and people are just missing probably how they learned to cope with it in a way, having that taken away from them, and their lifestyle.

00:07:30:15 - 00:07:34:11 Alison We joked about the new normal, but the reality is there's no such thing as the new normal.

00:07:34:16 - 00:07:39:22 Scott There's no normal. We'll find out eventually. Maybe, but not for a while, right?

00:07:39:23 - 00:07:58:10 Alison Now Scott, your experiences on both the agency and client side of delivering insights and doing that across a really vast range of industries gives you such great perspective. So I know our listeners would certainly benefit from your advice on how insights teams can be a more powerful growth driver for their organizations.

00:07:58:12 - 00:08:19:10 Scott And, you know, I've seen a lot in my years, and I started on the agency side, for eight years, and then I moved to the client side for 11. You know, I worked in CPG at both Warner Lambert and PepsiCo, and then came back to the agency side. A lot of people don't do the full circle. So I have seen a lot internally how client organizations with research and value it.

00:08:19:12 - 00:08:42:08 Scott And then now I have the privilege to work in so many different clients and so many different cultures, and you see a lot as well. I mean, a lot of that's my personal view on it. And I'll get back to that. But we've done a lot of work on this. So we have a whole consulting arm of Kantar, and we've been doing research in this area for a while now, and there is a gold standard study that BCG did.

00:08:42:10 - 00:09:03:01 Scott And that was the whole piece about moving from Insight to foresight, back in the, you know, the early 2000s. And that was held up for a long time. And it was a call to action for internal researchers to to really move to the, the what now, what you know, and so what's, in all those as opposed to just the what.

00:09:03:03 - 00:09:25:16 Scott But things have moved rapidly, and that's really seen as table stakes right now. So we did a big study and we, it was called Insights 2020, it was in the Harvard Business Review. We've had a few of these studies published there, and we actually conducted research with over 10,000 people at different levels in different sectors and organizations. And it's over 60 countries, including Canada.

00:09:25:18 - 00:09:49:00 Scott We had a lot of interviews here in Canada as well. And, what we did was, we divided, we divided the results between high performing companies and all the other companies. And then we had the, because it was claimed, we had NYU do a validation with financial results and it was pretty accurate, actually. People who said they're a high-performing company were.

00:09:49:02 - 00:10:11:22 Scott And you that's nice. We'd all like to be. But so we felt good about the segmentation that we had. There were a few things, like a couple of rules of three that we found out here, as key implications. And one of them was that the high-performing companies that were achieving this great growth were consumer-centric, it was consumer-centric growth, you know, putting the customer, consumer in the middle of it.

00:10:12:00 - 00:10:37:09 Scott And what they did was - one, they delivered a total experience to customers. And think about how we bring our brand promise together, with our customer experience and the whole cycle. And then think about how the customer experience is informing the brand promise and what we advertise, and tell our customers or consumers what to do. And companies don't do this very often.

00:10:37:09 - 00:10:56:22 Scott I mean, I've seen so many examples where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and it's it's different departments, it's different agendas, it's different budgets. Whereas top performing companies have a seamless flow between the two. You know, I'll give you another plug for CMA CX, because, you know, I think you're going to cover a lot there.

00:10:57:00 - 00:11:24:00 Scott But we saw this behaviour and the high-performing companies were four times more likely to have this, this total experience, than the other companies. So that was pretty big. Another one was customer obsession. And customer obsession starts at the top of the organization. You need your CEO, your CFO, your head of sales, your HR, your supply chain, everybody at the top and all the way through down

00:11:24:00 - 00:11:50:01 Scott the organization has to be obsessed with the customer and the consumer. This is critical. Also leads to a purpose-led organization, which, you know, every person at a checkout counter to the driver to, you know, the people manufacturing the plant are all serving the same purpose. And it's the customer obsession. Again, the companies that did this, like demonstrated four times more than all the lower-performing companies.

00:11:50:03 - 00:12:17:14 Scott And then the last one, and this is one that applies to our research in particular, it's strategic leverage of insights and analytics. Right. And we call it the Insight Engine. And if you want, I can unpack that a little more because it has three components to it as well. But so what do you do. So what differentiates the high performing organizations with Insights Engine is that they have a leading role of insights and analytics, meaning they have a seat at the table.

00:12:17:16 - 00:12:39:08 Scott They often report to the CEO of the company, and they're part of the decision making. Whereas under-performers and we see this a lot as well. And I've been in organizations like this, they have a separate insights and analytics team that reports to marketing or other functions. So they divided across functions and they effectively act as a marketing services team.

00:12:39:10 - 00:13:15:07 Scott So it's critical that the insights team is reporting up high, has a seat at the decisions. And independent budgets help a lot too. The other thing is they unlock the power of data. And you know, we we've all talked a lot about data visualization and how important that is. But it's also leveraging how research has changed, like now we have so much automated research and we have so much AI-generated research coming up in the near future, that that rather than conducting big studies and going to reams of data, it's getting early signals and then responding to them.

00:13:15:07 - 00:13:38:21 Scott And the value that these researchers bring is that they can look at a red flag coming up, pinging on their phone, and sit down with the CMO and have a really good discussion about what happened, what we think is going on, and what can we do about it or get ahead of it, maybe it's an opportunity, right. But it's like working in real time with real signals rather than big research studies and the experiment.

00:13:38:21 - 00:13:56:19 Scott And back in the day, YouTube was known when it got started. They put 10% of the research budget in things they had no idea if they could possibly work or not. Nobody does that. They're too conservative. Very few companies do it. And then 20% was stuff that day was wild ideas last year, that okay, let's let's prove them out now.

00:13:56:21 - 00:14:13:18 Scott And then the other 70% was stuff they knew worked. And so you're always like, you're always bringing new thinking that way. And I think it was YouTube, I'll give them credit for it at least. But that kind of thinking with experimentation. And the third thing is that these insights engines, these companies have worked really well with insights.

00:14:13:19 - 00:14:37:05 Scott They develop critical capabilities. And we're not talking about tech in this case. We're talking about the people capabilities and skills that bring, storytelling and creative solutions. And more important than anything else is that they are answering business questions, not research questions. So when you make a recommendation, it's how it's going to grow the business and drive shareholder growth.

00:14:37:06 - 00:14:44:10 Scott It's not about, hey, you moved this measure up 4%. Congratulations. Here's a bonus, right. I call it smiley KPI.

00:14:44:10 - 00:15:15:02 Alison It's such great perspective Scott. Now I've been the CMO and often thought one of the superpowers of the marketing team at that executive table is being the voice of the customer. And obviously having insights and data to lead that. When I've had the best impact, when we've had an executive team that was working together, it was around being very insights focused, recognizing that the customer wasn't just the marketing ownership, it was the customers needed to impact absolutely everything that we did.

00:15:15:04 - 00:15:27:18 Alison I haven't been in an organization where insights was a separate department with direct reporting into the CEO. So that's a great observation that some of the top- performing companies have that. 

00:15:27:20 - 00:15:52:10 Scott Unilever, globally has had that, and they really flourished, during that whole time. And there are I mean, there are examples around the world where that happens, like, you know, I remember my time at Warner Lambert, they made a big change. And this was back, you know, 1999, like 25 years ago or so. And one of those big visions was that the insights team,

00:15:52:12 - 00:16:12:10 Scott they should have their own budget and they should report to the president of Warner Lambert, our division for Canada. And that was achieved. And it gave us a lot of attitude, latitude rather to, to be, strategic advisors and partners and, and if you've ever heard Peter Rodriguez and I share stories of that day, we worked together,

00:16:12:10 - 00:16:35:19 Scott I know he's a regular with the CMA. When you have that, it's very different from when you work for an organization where you are given a budget, by marketers, could be any team, really, and your job is to go and get support for what you're doing often. You know, it's like that whole David Ogilvy "lamp post for support, rather than illumination" thing that we've heard a zillion times.

00:16:35:19 - 00:16:57:07 Scott But it's true. Whereas, if you have control over the budget, you can invest it in areas that can have the maximum impact for an organization. Tell people things they might not want to hear. And then, tell them things that are going to really help drive the business. So it does happen in different places. Like I never got all the way to bright when I was leading insights for different organizations, but it did make a lot of progress in these areas.

00:16:57:07 - 00:17:19:16 Scott And what I found really quickly was to do that, you needed to help every stakeholder around the table. And I mean, like the, you know, the leadership table at the company. And so what are you doing to help HR, and what are you doing to help the sales team, food service team. Obviously, you're working the CMO closely at that point too, some companies do this.

00:17:19:16 - 00:17:30:15 Scott And the more direct connection there is between insights and leadership, it's great. It helps drive this, but you don't get a seat at the table, you have to earn a seat at the table. So you have to have something of value to bring to it.

00:17:30:17 - 00:17:39:06 Alison It would certainly remove any perceived bias if they were reporting directly, instead of reporting through any other of the colleagues around the C-suite, so it's...

00:17:39:11 - 00:17:40:18 Scott Accountability.

00:17:40:19 - 00:17:44:00 Alison Something I haven't seen before. So it's a very interesting finding from my perspective.

00:17:44:00 - 00:18:15:05 Scott When we talk about the behaviours, because I know, you know, you said in the introduction, talking about democratizing data, we'll get into that, I guess, but one of them is there's a big behavioural difference between low-performing organizations and high-performing organizations. High-performing organizations are sharing and collaborating. Everything is accessible for everybody to interpret and challenge, right? As opposed to hoarding, because it gives some level of perceived power, or control, which is really negative and could drive the organization down.

00:18:15:05 - 00:18:17:18 Scott So yeah, that's another key part too.

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:33:21 Alison That's a great add on. Thank you. So I am very curious to hear what inspired Kantar's decision to democratize brand data, in particular to give it away for free. And I'd love to also hear, are you already seeing brands take advantage of this very generous opportunity?

00:18:33:23 - 00:18:58:02 Scott A bit of background on that really quickly. What we've shared is all the data from Kantar's brandz that we do around the world. I mean, this is, this is a huge country is it's multiple categories. It's, 18,000 brands, probably about 20,000 by now, it's over 5 billion data points. And, you know, as we're reporting on it, we're using it for our brand valuations on a regular basis.

00:18:58:04 - 00:19:21:01 Scott Our vision is to be an indispensable brand partner. That's what we want to be. So we made the decision to put this forward with the idea is that democratizing data, making available for everyone. And I mean, obviously, the benefit is that people see the data that might spark their interest, or they might be, they might like our approach and want to talk to us about it, or doing some work with them, of course.

00:19:21:01 - 00:19:39:18 Scott And we're a business now, not for profit. So we're looking at that. But it's really stimulated a lot of great discussion already. So, if we throw out the link when we put this out, I mean, as a follow up, anybody can go in there and it's, there are no strings attached, you register and you have access to all of it.

00:19:39:20 - 00:20:04:03 Scott So that current belief is in the data democratization. And so this is one step. But we also create a lot of libraries of all the results. So if our clients will allow it, everybody in the organization can access results on a regular basis at their fingertips. And so there are a lot of steps, I mean, dashboards that have been a really great move that the industry has taken forward, to make data accessible for everybody as well.

00:20:04:05 - 00:20:22:19 Scott And some of the biggest questions we get from Canadian clients are, what's going on with the American clients? Or what's going on with the English clients? And they don't share. We often have to help with the sharing. And you know, we're happy to, you know, if we don't get our hands slapped too hard. That type of thing. The idea here is to share the brandz data and all of everything that's in there.

00:20:22:21 - 00:20:43:00 Scott And you asked about who's using that and such right now? And so we found that the early users, early adopters in the market, or I've seen personally in Canada, in some cases is  smaller brands like ones who don't have big tracking budgets or the data. And they're just really interested, you know, once a year checking out what's going on or are looking at other categories.

00:20:43:00 - 00:21:07:11 Scott And so we've had some of them, using it, which is great. You know, glad we can offer that up for them. We've had some marketers who are, who don't have brand data available, at the time they need it, have big meetings or decisions to make, and had one of those recently and she accessed it. And it was very helpful to make some informed decisions based on, you know, consumers and like how they felt about the brand against competition.

00:21:07:13 - 00:21:33:07 Scott I think one of the coolest use cases, I was, last year I was leading automotive sector in the US and, and we had a, agency planner that was really grappling with global positioning for their brand. So I introduced them to, to brand snapshot, and they were able to take a look quickly at how their brand performed in every market or many markets, like 12 or 14 around the world.

00:21:33:09 - 00:21:57:18 Scott And see, in the strong markets, what consumers thought about the brand versus the market in the US, where they're quite weak in comparison. So ton of value right there. I could see this being of amazing use to, mergers and acquisitions going forward. Because if you  have your eye on a brand, you can take a look at how well do they fit with our brands currently or, you know, are they, is there a lot of interaction?

00:21:57:18 - 00:22:11:08 Scott Are they truly incremental?, Yeah. Maybe a little bit of that that you could look at. But it would make a lot of sense I think as part of the research to get a little bit of a brand view in there too. So, so that's available for people too.

00:22:11:10 - 00:22:46:19 Alison It's such a valuable offer, when I think about our, our membership and  the Canadian marketing industry, where so often we're the Canadian office or region for a global brand and business, and it's can be hard justify why we need Canadian specific marketing. So having access to this sort of data on such a global and significant level, and at no cost, is a really powerful advantage in helping demonstrate why Canadian brands and marketing teams really do need to invest in Canada.

00:22:46:19 - 00:23:00:23 Alison Because on the surface, especially if you're looking from south of the border, you can see how we're similar to the U.S. and it might not always be so obvious how we're different. So thank you on behalf of the profession for giving us access to a really powerful way to help build that case.

00:23:01:05 - 00:23:18:03 Scott Yeah, and that's a great use case right there, Alison, where I mean, you could compare the brand in Canada and the US as it's from the database for both, and someday, if you give me another shot, I would love to talk about the importance of Canadian creative and why U.S. ads don't transfer into to Canada, because we have data on that too.

00:23:18:03 - 00:23:19:08 Scott You're right on the mark.

00:23:19:10 - 00:23:38:17 Alison That is definitely a hot topic and I will happily bring you back to have that conversation. So there is very little business marketing topics today that AI isn't impacting. And obviously that's true of insights in the research too. So I'd love you to share how you see AI help transforming the world of both research and insights.

00:23:38:19 - 00:24:01:18 Scott That's a good question. It also goes back to our discussion about insights engines and the importance of that, and experimentation and interpretation and such. As technology changes, the best researchers and marketers are going to have to change with it, or they'll be obsolete very, very quickly. And there's, you wouldn't believe how much resistance, I mean, I've been doing this so long.

00:24:01:18 - 00:24:27:13 Scott Like, I just I use every bit of energy just to try to keep up, if not ahead of some of the trends that are happening in research. I'll give you a couple of examples, personal examples of when, you know, I've seen, people are resistant to it and I won't mention names, but there's one example, going back eight years ago or so, and we started launching, Kantar started launching automated research, and anybody could access it.

00:24:27:13 - 00:24:48:06 Scott Again, it's different forms of democratization. You could do a study right now or an ad agency could test their own ad and show data to the client. Anybody could access it. And I remember when we first put it up, just one traditional researcher in the market just getting really upset on my LinkedIn feed saying, what do you mean?

00:24:48:06 - 00:25:12:12 Scott Anybody with a credit card can do research? That's not right. Of course it's right!  Why not? And then, we've seen a lot. I mean, the one of the last hot topics was, system one under you know, the, the whole, you know, neuroscience, behavioural science aspect. And I remember sitting at a dinner table, we socialize with a competitor, and this competitor making a full statement.

00:25:12:12 - 00:25:39:13 Scott Everybody at the table. Real science is just a fad, right? Well, I don't know about that. It's kind of driven a lot of what we do. But just a couple of examples, and those are just personal examples, but you need to leverage this stuff. I mean, this is the greatest opportunity a researcher can have is to try something new and get a fresh look at things. Like, we've been we've been using AI for six years now at Kantar. It's not new to us. Like we use it for text analytics,

00:25:39:13 - 00:25:58:23 Scott We have our link AI. This is actually we were talking about ads going from market to market. We develop this for Coke and Microsoft to test how ads could move from market to market using AI and our normative database. And we use this in our tracking to forecast, based on the trends. We have always on market mix modeling now.

00:25:58:23 - 00:26:19:06 Scott And it's incredible how you can leverage AI, but it's Gen AI, which is the real game changer right now. And it's a huge area of focus for us. We have a nature, partnership. I don't think it's been announced yet, but we're working at very high levels globally. So we can put this in everything we do. And it's going to, it's going to really help with not just our own productivity,

00:26:19:06 - 00:26:45:12 Scott how we work, but our ability to analyze and work quickly. Like, it's going to change how we collect data. It's going to change how we analyze data, how we deliver data. But at the same time, like this is for, you know, broader for researchers, it's an opportunity to do stuff we're talking about, you know, redefining yourself, always. like, who would be a, who would be better at being a product engineer than a researcher that's been trained

00:26:45:12 - 00:27:16:15 Scott to ask questions your entire life, right? And good questions and bad questions. Like, you know, what I play with? And I, you know, I give really bad poetry, because I'm not a good poet, but I can really probe copilot to answer some good questions, right? And it's also about really embracing the dynamism is critical. You know, I talked about being in the forefront, but you can immerse yourself in uncertainties and the uncomfortable zone and then use this for scenario planning, too, and play out different scenarios as, as AI is advancing.

00:27:16:17 - 00:27:39:12 Scott But I think one of the key pieces right here, one of the pieces of low hanging fruit, is I've talked about storytelling, and how important storytelling is for insights. When you can get AI to build your story for you and get it 70%, you can make that last 30% the most compelling thing in the world. Make sure it makes sense and tell a great story, rather

00:27:39:12 - 00:27:59:05 Scott than going through all the numbers and you know, it's up and down, it's just going to push us ahead. So, you know, if you look at Maslow, we're going to get towards our self-actualization if we choose to, rather than the security at the bottom worrying about our jobs all the time. So I think it's the greatest gift and the greatest opportunity, so very excited about.

00:27:59:07 - 00:28:17:16 Alison Yeah, I definitely share your enthusiasm for Gen AI and the whole example you gave around looking at the quote unquote blank page. It's always easier to edit than it is to create from scratch. So, from a storytelling perspective, even if you don't like the starting point, it just makes it easier to then jump down and edit and refine and tell it in a powerful way.

00:28:17:16 - 00:28:36:23 Alison So, great examples. So, in closing, you joked about your 30 years of experience, and in that 30 years you have learned a great deal, and you've shared a lot with us today. But that also means you have some great advice to offer. So I'd love to end our time together today by having you share one piece of advice for our marketers who are listening.

00:28:37:01 - 00:28:59:12 Scott Well, any marketer who's worked with me is going to be sick of hearing this, because it's the piece of advice I've given for many, many, many years. I give it to all my colleagues and all my, all my staff and everybody else. But I believe in it. When you're standing on a beach, and there's a major huge wave, tidal wave of change coming your way, you have two choices.

00:28:59:13 - 00:29:14:01 Scott You can stand there, deny it, do nothing, and you're going to get swept away and crushed by it. Or, choice number two, you can grab a surfboard and get on top of and have the ride of your life. That's all.

00:29:14:03 - 00:29:26:06 Alison Great advice. So I'm definitely going to be donning my surfboard and heading out, so I hope all of our listeners will do the same. Scott, thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, and we will happily invite you back to share more.

00:29:26:11 - 00:29:30:07 Scott It's been a pleasure, Alison. Thank you very much and would love to come back again. Thank you.

00:29:30:09 - 00:29:33:03 Alison Thank you.

00:29:33:05 - 00:29:45:19 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Carolin Taubensee, Executive Director of Marketing Communications at APTN. They discuss preserving Indigenous languages, how marketers can reach these diverse communities, and opening doors for the Indigenous worldwide.

00:00:03 - 00:00:07 Speaker 1 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast,

00:00:07 - 00:00:17 where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.

00:00:17 - 00:00:21

With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:24 - 00:01:00 Alison With challenges in the industry's quest for inclusivity and representation. Marketers really need to navigate the journey of aligning brand narratives with the profound cultural heritage of indigenous communities. In this episode, I'm honoured to have a conversation with Carolin Taubensee, Executive Director of Marketing and Communications at APTN. APTN is the first national indigenous broadcaster in the world, and it's an organization that's not only carving out a critical space for indigenous voices in media, but also reshaping how brands can connect with this diverse and dynamic audience.

00:01:00 - 00:01:29 Alison So today, we're going to explore the business opportunity that marketing to the indigenous population represents. And we're also going to talk about the impact of indigenous media on brand strategies and uncover the diverse demographics of indigenous communities. We'll discuss the authentic ways that brands can engage with indigenous audiences, fostering social responsibility and long term loyalty. Plus, we'll discuss the pursuit of indigenous language preservation and how this cultural cornerstone is influencing the marketing sphere.

00:01:29 - 00:01:35 Alison Carolin, I'm absolutely thrilled to have you joining us today.

Carolin Thank you so much, Allison. It's great to be here. 

00:01:35 - 00:01:43 Alison Now, I want to kick things off by having you share your insights on the size of and diversity within the indigenous population in Canada.

00:01:43 - 00:02:03 Carolin Sure. First of all, I'd just like to say that I'm coming to you today from Treaty One territory. I was born and raised in Winnipeg, first-generation Canadian from German heritage, and having worked at APTN for almost six years now, I'm happy to say that I'm an ally of the Indigenous peoples. 

00:02:04 - 00:02:29 Carolin In terms of the learning and the understanding in terms of Indigenous communities in Canada, it's really important to know that they're not one homogeneous group. They have shared values and experiences, but there are vast differences when we consider there's over 600 distinct First Nations communities in Canada with over 70 Indigenous languages spoken.

00:02:30 - 00:02:42 Carolin And so Indigenous people are represented by First Nations, Inuit, and Métis people. And First Nations is about 60% of the Indigenous population, Métis about 34-ish percent,

00:02:43 - 00:02:54 Carolin and then about four or five percent for Inuit, which are largely people in the north. And in total, the population in Canada for Indigenous people is almost 2 million.

00:02:55 - 00:03:12 Carolin It's 1.8 million, according to the last census. And that represents a total of about 5% of the population in Canada. But what's interesting in terms of going into looking at that audience and that community, is it's the fastest growing population in Canada,

00:03:13 - 00:03:23 Carolin and it also has the youngest population, where 28% are about under 25 years old. And so as marketers, we're often trying to reach younger audiences.

00:03:24 - 00:03:44 Carolin So it's very worthwhile noting that Indigenous people tend to be younger. And it's on average, the average age of Canadians is, you know, early 40s. Indigenous people, it's a decade younger. So quite interesting when we think about the opportunities that are out there for marketers today. 

00:03:45:07 - 00:05:08:16 Alison Carolin, I knew that I was going to learn a lot from you today. I had no appreciation for the size of the Indigenous community in Canada. And the fact that there are 600 communities and over 70 languages spoken. I also didn't know that they were the fastest growing community within our country. So thank you so much. That was incredibly illuminating.

00:04:04 - 00:04:11 Carolin You're welcome. It's also, I think, interesting to talk about a geographic distribution of Indigenous people as well.

00:04:12 - 00:04:29 Carolin Only 43% live on reserve and Indigenous people, they're more likely to live in large urban centres. And so in the largest Indigenous population in a city in Canada is actually in Winnipeg with over 100,000 people.

00:04:30 - 00:04:56 Carolin But there's large representation in Edmonton and Vancouver as well, in terms of city centre. But when you think about, on a provincial level, and you look at Ontario, the largest population of Indigenous people live in Ontario. It's almost 400,000 people. And so we really are in terms of Indigenous people spread throughout coast to coast to coast.

00:04:57 - 00:05:07 Carolin But when you think about sort of that distribution of reserve or rural, it's a large city population and the volume is across the country.

00:05:08 - 00:05:24 Alison Now, this multifaceted group certainly represents potential consumers for many brands and many of our listeners today. Carolin, in your experience, what are the opportunities that you see and how can marketers tailor their marketing strategy and approach to reach and resonate with Indigenous consumers?

00:05:25 - 00:05:36 Carolin You know, it's important. I think everybody realizes that Canada is a very diverse country, and so as marketers we strive to identify with consumers. So we need to represent diversity.

00:05:37 - 00:05:56 Carolin It's very important. And as marketers we can't get trapped into thinking what attracts me or what interests me as a consumer We really need to step into the shoes or the moccasins as the case may be into others and so that we can understand all all the different diverse communities that are in Canada,

00:05:57 - 00:06:07 Carolin including Indigenous people. Now, when we think about it, Indigenous people consume all the same products that non-Indigenous people do. They're buying groceries,

00:06:08 - 00:06:19 Carolin they're buying cars, they're buying houses, they're shopping in retail. And so it really is a matter of how do we associate with audiences of diverse

00:06:20 - 00:06:27 Carolin backgrounds because they are consumers of the products that were out there, products and services that we're presenting to as marketers out there. 

00:06:28 - 00:06:39 Alison So, with an increasing interest in diversity and inclusion, I'd love you to share some specific outcomes and success stories of brands that have forged partnerships with Indigenous media entities, like APTN.

00:06:40 - 00:06:58 Carolin So as APTN is the world's first national indigenous broadcaster, we are able to share our stories with our voices and it's our narratives that really matter. And that's the importance of what Indigenous media brings to Canada.

00:06:59 - 00:07:17 Carolin There are many Indigenous media out there, whether they are radio stations, whether they are digital news platforms, traditional print, television. television, and many reflect and celebrate the cultures and the languages and traditions and wisdom of Indigenous peoples.

00:07:18 - 00:07:28 Carolin And I'm very humbled in terms of the knowledge that Indigenous people collectively have in terms of the environment, the land, water, the animals.

00:07:29 - 00:07:43 Carolin They're such important aspects in terms of our overall environment. And so-- I think that when we go into working with Indigenous media as marketers that are out there,

00:07:44 - 00:07:58 Carolin they're connecting with that community directly and showing that support and that relationship. And so I think that's a very important aspect of looking at marketing and how do we connect.

00:07:59 - 00:08:09 Alison So how can brands demonstrate a genuine commitment to social responsibility when marketing in Indigenous spaces and ensuring that they're not falling into a performative allyship? 

00:08:10 - 00:08:23 Carolin I think the important thing here is for marketers to, as individuals, to take the time to learn and understand about different communities, including Indigenous peoples. There's a great course, the online course,

00:08:24 - 00:08:37 Carolin that the University of Alberta offers for free, and it's called Indigenous Canada, and it's great knowledge in terms of understanding the history and the perspectives of Indigenous people.

00:08:38: - 00:08:50 Carolin And so, as individuals, as marketers, I think it's important to put yourself in terms of learning about the communities and being sensitive in terms of ceremony,

00:08:51 - 00:09:06 Carolin spirituality. It's important not to just utilize traditional images in our marketing. It can be that there are people that are represented just in terms of diverse communities,

00:09:07 - 00:09:19 Carolin people of colour and so forth that they're integrated into advertising. But it's important to really learn about the communities and not, you know, utilize something that could be quite sensitive,

00:09:20 - 00:09:25 Carolin especially as it relates to culture and ceremony and spirituality. 

00:09:26 - 00:09:34 Alison So, Carolin, I'd love you to share some of the ways the indigenous community has shown appreciation or reciprocated when brands engage with them authentically and respectfully.

00:09:35 - 00:09:48 Carolin A big part of Indigenous culture is really building relationships with other communities. And so when it is opened up in terms of marketers,

00:09:49 - 00:10:01 Carolin recognizing and showing importance that they want a relationship with Indigenous people is a cultural thing to be able to reciprocate that.

00:10:02 - 00:10:29 Carolin And looking at shared values is very important in terms of what is important to Indigenous people. And so looking at those aspects of relationship-building is a big part of being able to share and identify potentially with marketers that recognize and the values and the importance of Indigenous peoples

00:10:30 - 00:10:46 Carolin as a whole and being very respectful in terms of Indigenous people. So that just is sort of, you know, the full circle of building respect and relationships, is a big part of what makes sense and what's important to Indigenous people.

00:10:47 - 00:10:59 Alison Now, Carolin, with APTN's initiative towards Indigenous language preservation, what role do you think media plays in cultural sustainability? And how should brands align with these efforts for meaningful engagement?

00:11:00 - 00:11:10 Carolin I was mentioning earlier that there's over seventy Indigenous languages in Canada, and some of them are at high risk of being lost. And when languages are lost,

00:11:11 - 00:11:22 Carolin culture is lost. And so one of the things that APTN is working through and has for a while is providing content that is in language.

00:11:23 - 00:11:35 Carolin For so long, Indigenous people were not even able to speak their language. But we've come to a place where finally there's the respect that is out there in terms of enabling those languages to be spoken.

00:11:36 - 00:11:47 Carolin And so it's really important in terms of the role that APTN plays in providing content that is in a variety of languages. languages so that people can hear,

O0:11:48 - 00:12:03 Carolin get a sense of pride, and rebuild and reclaim those languages again. And so if there are marketers that are out there, that can help us achieve our goals collectively for the betterment of our communities,

00:12:04 - 00:12:19 Carolin then that would be so valuable in terms of meaningful engagement, and moving forward in terms of reconciliation. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission came out with a number of calls to action.

00:12:20 - 00:12:32 Carolin Number 92 in particular is really calling on corporate Canada to build the relationships and enable Indigenous people in terms of access,

00:12:33 - 00:12:51 Carolin whether that's jobs, education, whether it's learning and educating themselves on history and the legacy of residential schools. And so when we look at how do we challenge and what can organizations do in terms of achieving reconciliation,

00:12:52 - 00:13:19 Carolin that's an important part of it. And then even APTN has been called upon in terms of the call to action number 85. And how we support reconciliation together is being that leader in programming, and the culture, and being able to share those languages and help reclaim them again and build strength back up in the community to speak the languages that is such a strong representation of culture.

00:13:20 - 00:13:39 Alison Carolin, thank you so much. Now you've got an enviable job, you've got an outstanding career. So I'd love to close our discussion today by having you share one piece of advice for our listeners. It's a marketing audience, and I know they would benefit from some marketing advice and something you'd like to share with them.

00:13:40 - 00:13:48 Carolin You know, I started my career over 35 years ago. I was a media planner buyer at an ad agency and I've come full circle now sitting sort of at the media side,

00:13:49 - 00:13:59 Carolin within the media industry. And I would just say that what's important is knowing that media is an art and a science. We look at all the metrics.

00:14:00 - 00:14:11 Carolin Digital provides us so many metrics in terms of performance of marketing and advertising, and that's important. But it's also important to recognize the art side of it.

00:14:12 - 00:14:29 Carolin And intuitively, stepping out of the numbers and being able to identify communities, audiences, that may not always sort of meet the standards of the largest audience or impressions and those sorts of things.

00:14:30 - 00:14:47 Carolin And so my advice for young marketers is to recognize the art and the science of media and looking at numbers, but building in sort of those intuitive understandings of communities and what might be important to step outside of just the plain numbers themselves.

00:14:48 - 00:15:16 Alison That's great advice, Carolin. It's certainly very applicable to the media aspect of the marketing profession. I would say it's also very applicable across all aspects of the marketing profession. So it's a great note to end on. And I really want to thank you for being my guest today and sharing some really important insights into how marketers can resonate with and engage with our Indigenous community.

00:15:11 - 00:15:18 Carolin Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure to be able to talk about this today. 

00:15:19 - 00:15:32

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Caroline Gianias, President of Radio Connects. Alison and Caroline explore how changing media habits, the merging of traditional and digital mediums, and multicultural diversity unite to create new opportunities for marketers in Canada.

00:00:03:06 - 00:00:22:11 Speaker 1 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business themes. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:13 - 00:00:52:18 Alison With the media landscape evolving so rapidly, Canada's media industry is very much at a turning point, stirring a vital conversation on the media's direction in our country. From the changing media habits of Canadians, streaming and increased digital advertising, to the consolidation of newsrooms, understanding these shifts is absolutely crucial for crafting media plans and messages that resonate. Marketers need to stay agile and informed, since adapting to these dynamic shifts is now more crucial than ever.

00:00:52:19 - 00:01:14:22 Alison To guide us through this pivotal time, I am absolutely thrilled to have Caroline Gianias, President of Radio Connects, join us today. Caroline is a highly regarded media expert who has worked with local and global clients across every major advertising category. In addition to her role at Radio Connects, Caroline also is the vice president of the World Radio Alliance and chairs the CMA's Media Council.

00:01:15:04 - 00:01:29:17 Alison Today we delve into how massive shifts in media habits, merging digital with traditional mediums, and Canada's rich cultural diversity create a realm of possibilities for marketers everywhere. Welcome, Caroline. It's really great to have you with me today.

00:01:29:19 - 00:01:35:05 Caroline Thanks, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here. Hope I have some good insights to share on this lofty topic.

00:01:35:07 - 00:01:46:14 Alison So to kick things off, I would love to hear how the evolving demographics and cultural diversity within Canada are influencing media consumption habits and advertisers' approach to segmentation.

00:01:46:18 - 00:02:14:13 Caroline Canada is such a big country. I mean, we're six time zones spread across a massive landscape, with cultural differences, we've got regional differences. We have two official languages, and on top of that, we're layered with this very rich and diverse cultural experience of new Canadians, and what it means to be a new Canadian, as well as just the changing technology that's having an impact on media consumption.

00:02:14:13 - 00:02:43:16 Caroline So it's a really big question and something that I'm sure advertisers are faced with every day in trying to solve their business challenges and using media as a part of that. Really, the disruption to media consumption has largely been led by technology and the fact that digitization of media, the fact that we're carrying around in our palms, the most powerful computer you could possibly have, that just opens a world of possibilities in terms of consumption.

00:02:43:18 - 00:03:20:05 Caroline So, you know, all it contributes to is just making that media consumption more fragmented, really. And so how do marketers connect with all of those different touchpoints? Right. That's the big challenge. I mean, the reality of 40 million people is that 80% of us are still living within, you know, 200 kilometres of the United States. Right. So this whole fragmentation of media and media consumption, I mean, a lot of it is still media and cultural influences, political influences, certainly economic influences that are all coming from south of the border.

00:03:20:07 - 00:03:48:23 Caroline And, you know, for Canada, the challenge in that is how do marketers, especially in global brands, maintain the fact that Canada is a unique and diverse marketplace separate from the United States and we're not the 51st state? And what applies in the United States? While yeah, there'll be similarities, but it still needs to be adapted because, you know, in Canada we have our own media consumption habits that are different and are regionally different as well.

00:03:48:23 - 00:04:18:23 Caroline And we have two official languages and I think a lot of the times when advertisers are so focused on what does it mean to be multicultural and support new Canadians and the ethnicity and diversity of Canada? Are we in fact ignoring a very big percent of Canada's population that's living in Quebec? That aren't even being addressed? What are we doing to include Quebec in those conversations, which I think often get left off the table when we're talking about Canada being a diverse and multicultural population?

00:04:19:01 - 00:04:38:15 Caroline Oftentimes, they're not even included in the advertiser's plans. So if we're looking at prioritizing ethnicity, cultural diversity, how do we do that beyond English and French in Canada? And are we even doing the right job in English or French in Canada? Right. So it becomes a very complex question.

00:04:38:17 - 00:05:05:10 Alison And it can be very easy to be sitting on the other side of the border looking at Canada and seeing how we're alike and really underestimating the crucial and sometimes subtle differences that make marketing in Canada truly unique. In your viewpoint, are the media measurement tools that are available today agile enough to capture the multicultural consumption patterns that are currently happening in Canada, and to do it an accurate way?   00:05:05:12 - 00:05:28:02 Caroline Yeah, it's challenging because, you know, the question always comes down to with measurement, what are you measuring? Are you measuring for insight to improve business outcomes based on understanding consumer, based on understanding media habits? Or are you measuring for currency to transact to purchase that media? So, you know, the two of them, they're very different things and they don't necessarily, are not approached in the same way.

00:05:28:04 - 00:05:51:20 Caroline Certainly when we're measuring for currency in Canada, we have Numeris. Right. And we have Radio Counts that supports on the radio measurements and they use very disciplined approach. It's, you know, using panels, it's looking at census data, it's extrapolating to population. Of course, in Canada with privacy, we don't speak to ethnicity, we don't speak to other than understanding in terms of the panels of languages spoken at home.

00:05:51:22 - 00:06:16:05 Caroline But we don't dissect in terms of, you know, am I speaking to a South Asian community? If I am speaking to a South Asian community, what does that look like within the association communities that look on many different looks as well? And quite frankly, there's just not enough people in the country, believe it or not, that we can actually subgroup those into into certain measurement segments and start saying, well, yes, I'm using media to currency against this particular segment.

00:06:16:07 - 00:06:39:09 Caroline There's just, it's difficult to do that and it's difficult to get around that with privacy. I think you can do that digitally by creating, you know, scenarios of that if people are consuming this content that they're likely from this aspect of a community or certain ethnic group. And that seems easy to do. But I guess the question comes down to what are you going to do with that measurement once you get it?

00:06:39:11 - 00:07:06:15 Caroline How are you going to use that insight to inform your executions? What are you doing to make that a better user experience? If you're delivering content against that community or that language, is it in the right context? Are you using the right methodology to convey the message? Are you, you know, is it reflecting their communities? So once you start asking questions if you're measuring against certain things, it's like, what are you measuring?

00:07:06:16 - 00:07:29:11 Caroline How are you measuring it? And what are you going to do with the insight you get with that measurement? And I think in Canada, fundamentally too, it's it's expense sieve to measure. It's very expensive to measure. And the question always becomes who's paying for that measurement? You know, are the advertisers paying for it? Are the agencies paying for it? Are the broadcasters in Canada, the private broadcasters and the CBC?

00:07:29:11 - 00:07:59:18 Caroline Are they paying for that? Because if you look at some of the vertical tech companies, they are measuring their own users. But, you know, they're all now putting that behind walled gardens, right? You can't necessarily get to that first party data that they're collecting about their user groups. So it's a very difficult question. And I think the challenge also becomes is, as soon as you establish the parameters of measurement, the goalpost has moved in terms of what we're measuring, what technology we're measuring, and it's constantly evolving.

00:07:59:18 - 00:08:21:17 Caroline So it seems like the measurement is always behind the consumption because people are moving so quickly to adopt two different things. And once you find a way to measure it, they've moved on to something else. But I will say that I don't think from the broadcast perspective in the traditional measurement, if you will, that we give enough credit in terms of some of the solutions.

00:08:21:19 - 00:08:44:11 Caroline You know, I do have a lot of exposure to global media owners in the broadcast space, and they look to Canada as, you guys are measuring streaming of over the air broadcast, you're measuring, you're using panels, you're looking at different time zones, like we are actually quite advanced in terms of how some measurement is being done. Yet we in Canada don't give ourselves enough credit.

00:08:44:13 - 00:08:53:22 Caroline You know, actually being at the foreground in some of those measurements that we've done and we actually have. But I don't think we give ourselves enough credit sometimes.

00:08:54:00 - 00:08:59:01 Alison I think that's true of Canadians on a number of different levels. So I appreciate you shouting that out.

00:08:59:03 - 00:09:00:00 Alison I also want to point out

00:09:00:05 - 00:09:21:17 Alison Something you talked about earlier. We have a lot of listeners and members that are part of multinational businesses and representing the brand in Canada. So what strategy should multinational marketers employ to harness the full potential of the Canadian media scene? And it would be great to hear what makes Canada unique and why should media investment here be more of a priority?

00:09:21:17 - 00:09:30:06 Alison Because as I mentioned earlier, it's easy to you're sitting in the States in particular to look across the border and see how we're alike and underestimate the important differences we have.

00:09:30:08 - 00:09:55:23 Caroline The challenges is to ensure that the budgets reflect the job at hand, especially in certain categories. Canada, the media has to work so much harder because the trade dollars relative to what some advertisers are putting in the marketing budget to support their trade initiatives is certainly less than what it is in other markets. So our media has to work that much harder to support trade activity.

00:09:55:23 - 00:10:14:14 Caroline So I think, it's really the challenge has always been, you know, the budget for Canada shouldn't just be a default to it's X percent of what you're doing in the United States. That's, you know, you can't do that because our media budgets have to work harder in terms of connecting with Canadians. We have that fragmentation to deal with.

00:10:14:16 - 00:10:41:14 Caroline We have dual languages to start off before we even talk about doing any kind of ethnic centric or ethnic media placement. We have to address that. We have two official languages, two media ecosystems that support English and French. So that needs to have a seat at the table to have those discussions, because don't just automatically assume it's the budget to satisfy Canada is a percent of the US budget.

00:10:41:16 - 00:11:16:16 Caroline You have to look at what the business challenges are, what the media ecosystem looks like and what it's going to do to get that job done. And it will involve a percentage of English in Canada, and that's just a reality. You can't ignore the Quebec market, as a lot of marketers will tend to do. And I think the other thing is to look at the fact of the role of different media has, even in a world of multiculturalism and new Canadians coming into Canada. At what point do marketers sit back and say, you're no longer new Canadian when? You've been here five years, three years, ten years, 20 years?

00:11:16:18 - 00:11:38:21 Caroline Are we talking about new Canadians and what's the business objective to meet new Canadians? It might be completely different. You know, there's not just media challenges that we have with trying to meet new Canadians or a diverse multicultural community. It's the expectations of the services that they're going to be getting. You know, a lot of sticker shock when people come to Canada, right?

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:58:06 Caroline It's like you think the land of milk and honey, and it's really expensive cell phone plans. It's, you know, cost of living is really high. Cost of rent and ownership and all sorts of things are really high. And eventually those things do play into media usage because, you know, you're not going to have that many streaming services because they're expensive.

00:11:58:06 - 00:12:26:16 Caroline And you know local media may become the touchpoint because it's free for the most part, right? You can get in and listen to radio anywhere, any time. You don't have to pay for that service. With basic cable, you can turn on TV and find out what's happening. And so I think the challenge for multinational marketers is really to understand what the Canadian landscape looks like and the fact that it's English and it's French, and that just looking at a percent of the US budget isn't just going to get the job done.

00:12:26:16 - 00:12:33:22 Caroline You've got to really understand what it is you need to achieve. And the cost of media in Canada, it's not it's not cheap, right? It's not cheap.

00:12:34:00 - 00:12:47:05 Alison With the rise of streaming platforms and consumers shift to new media habits, what are the key strategies that traditional radio broadcasters and media platforms in Canada are implementing to remain relevant and competitive?

00:12:47:07 - 00:13:09:18 Caroline Well, you know, it's interesting. I think, you know, people think streaming, and I'll talk to the audio space because obviously it's where I'm immersed in the most is that I think there's a real disconnect in terms of understanding what that actually means, because really in terms of audio, what's happening in that streaming landscape, is that really streaming is a replacement of our personal music libraries, right?

00:13:09:20 - 00:13:29:17 Caroline You know, unless you're a real audiophile and, you know, my 30 year old, 31 year old son is, he has LPs, is that most people, I would say most people, a selection of Canadians are choosing to rent their music libraries versus owning their music libraries. Right. And that's giving the rise to what we're seeing in terms of streaming.

00:13:29:18 - 00:13:52:10 Caroline Because previously when we would look at, you know, album sales, to determine, you know, the top, CHUM's top list, right? It's how many records sold, you know, what the radio stations were playing and now it's coming down to streaming because we could physically count that now, whereas before we weren't. So all that personal music time being spent with physical is now being streamed.

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:22:21 Caroline But it's not a new phenomenon quite frankly. Personal music has always been in existence. It's just now that it's being streamed on a device as opposed to being played on your record player or your MP3 player or your boombox. So I think there is a a sense of certainly with people in the industry who think that Canadians aren't listening to terrestrial radio anymore because they're streaming, when in actual fact, you know, the reach of radio has been pretty consistent forever.

00:14:22:23 - 00:14:49:19 Caroline And most of the streaming that's being done by those Canadians who are streaming is largely noncommercial. It's to their personal music libraries. Because if you actually look at the free online music streaming services or you look at even podcasting, like collectively the two of them, I think what podcasting is maybe 29%, and free music streaming is like maybe 8% of all of the audio listening out there.

00:14:50:00 - 00:15:30:11 Caroline Whereas like radio, if you look at PPM, it's at 84%. That's a very big difference. And even when you compare it to the Amazon Prime, the Apple Music, YouTube, it's, you're still looking at terrestrial radio being one and a half, two times greater in terms of reach of any of those platforms. So, you know, I think the adaptation that broadcasters are have, is that it's more so that Canadian to really rediscovering the fact that radio was the original mobile medium, right, the transistor radio, and now you've got it on your phone. So your phone has become your transistor radio and so people are able to take that that radio experience with them wherever they're going

00:15:30:13 - 00:15:54:09 Caroline because it's a different experience, right? People lean into radio, they're connecting and want to know what's going on in the community. And the further out you get from the major urban centres, the more important those connections become to local community. And I think that's true whether you're new Canadian, who wants to connect with their new environment, they're learning the language, they're consuming, you know, television and radio because they're improving their English.

00:15:54:11 - 00:16:19:23 Caroline So I think, you know, the fact is that we in the industry, I think, have a different perception because we tend to be bigger streamers in general. We tend to have more streaming subscriptions than the average Canadian. We tend to spend more time with streaming and on demand platforms than average Canadians. And I think that often colours our perception of what consumers are doing.

00:16:20:01 - 00:16:41:21 Caroline And I go back to, ThinkTV did a great survey with Ipsos and it kind of level sets those of us who work in marketing, those who work in advertising, think about what Canadians are doing and there's such a difference in terms of what our perceptions of media consumption of the average Canadian is our own consumption versus what we think they're doing.

00:16:41:21 - 00:17:07:00 Caroline And you see such a disconnect. And I think the challenge for marketers and those advising their clients is, we're not the average consumer, we're not the average media consumption either. And so we really need to kind of take a step back and really focus on, you know, what Joe or Jill or, you know, average consumer X is doing relative to what we're doing because we're not like everybody else.

00:17:07:02 - 00:17:26:15 Caroline And we need to remember that when we're developing our advertising strategies, our behaviours, our consumption should never be the baseline of what we're doing. And insights, information, data points about average consumers and their consumer journey should always be the focus point because it's so different from ours.

00:17:26:17 - 00:17:38:01 Alison That's such an important reminder that you've given us, Caroline, to not assume that how we engage with media, how we live our lives, it's usually fundamentally different from the quote unquote average Canadian.

00:17:38:03 - 00:17:39:10 Caroline Hugely different.

00:17:39:12 - 00:17:46:03 Alison Well, your stat around 84% of radio is probably a surprising stat for a lot of our listeners as well.

00:17:46:05 - 00:18:07:22 Caroline I think it is. And I think that they forget, you know, especially I think another interesting thing is that those of us who work in urban centres, even, you know, post-COVID, we did a survey not too long ago with Signal Hills through Maru Canada, just asking people, you know, who were in vehicles yesterday, because obviously radio is a very important part of the consumer journey in car.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:41:00 Caroline And, you know, on average, 44% of Canadians were in vehicles yesterday versus 6% were in transit. So the reality is Canadians are very much car drivers and vehicle drivers as opposed to transit takers. And if you're trying to connect with consumers on the last mile about the purchase, being in the car is a big part of that. Right. And once you strip out all the noise of where you can actually meet a consumer with an ad message, like radio's 92% of that, because muscle memory, you get in your car and you turn it on. The radio comes on automatically, right?

00:18:41:05 - 00:19:05:21 Caroline Even in connected cars, whether you're an Android or Wi-Fi, Apple CarPlay, any of those different technologies, the time spent with ad supported or the amount of people listening to ad supported radio, the numbers are consistent it's above 90%, whether you have Android auto in the car or not because that connection to live radio, it's a leaned in experience and people rely on it.

00:19:05:23 - 00:19:23:18 Caroline And I think those of us in marketing who are not in cars, who rely on transit and think that everybody connects to their apps the minute they get in the car, that's you know, that's just not the reality out there. Right. And that's a big audience that we're missing if we're not focused on that.

00:19:23:20 - 00:19:38:23 Alison That's a great point. I'm sure some of our listeners are wondering if there's a demographic part of radio listening. Have you noticed in any of your research whether our younger Canadians as engaged with radio as we might be?

00:19:39:01 - 00:19:56:01 Caroline Well, you know, it's funny, we did just look at some research recently, and nobody wants to hear this, but the older you get, the more you consume. That's surprising. I remember I was at an agency thing not too long ago and I did have to counsel, I hate to tell you this, but you do turn into your parents as you get older.

00:19:56:03 - 00:20:15:09  Caroline You know, when you start when you move along from being a party of one, hopping on the subway or working remotely, to suddenly being in a car, driving through the drive through because, you know, doing school run and you got to run out for groceries or you ran out of milk, you know, not everything comes by a delivery service.

00:20:15:11 - 00:20:46:18 Caroline Uber eats or, you know, your grocery runs to your door. And, you know, radio does connect with more people as your life stages change. But I think, you know, it's interesting, I think people are surprised that even when you look at the younger demographics of 18 to 34 and you compare that with some of the digital platforms like Facebook and YouTube and, radio still connects with more of them than connects with YouTube or Facebook or TikTok or Instagram.

00:20:46:19 - 00:21:04:04 Caroline When it comes to 18 to 34s, like the reach of radio is still higher than those other media, which I think is surprising to a lot of people. The younger you are, the more exposure to radio, the more likely you are to have or to take some sort of action after hearing an ad, which we know is pretty surprising for people as well.

00:21:04:06 - 00:21:08:13 Caroline You know, but that came out in a recent study, and all of this is available on our Radio Connects website.

00:21:08:15 - 00:21:19:07 Alison Caroline, this has been wonderful conversation. I know you've got a busy day ahead, but before I close off our discussion, I would love to have you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners.

00:21:19:09 - 00:21:36:16 Caroline I guess it goes back to the we in the industry, we're a unique breed and our media behaviours are not like everyone else's. And I think we, as as you go through the media journey in the consumer journey and, you're looking to if I'm going to spend $1 an hour in media, where am I going to spend it?

00:21:36:18 - 00:21:58:02 Caroline You know, go back to the the business challenge at hand. Look at the consumer journey, not your media journey, but the consumer journey of the person that you're trying to connect with and ensure that you've covered all the touch points that are the most relevant and that the messaging you're delivering, it's in a context that makes sense for the person receiving the message.

00:21:58:04 - 00:22:23:03 Caroline Because I think, Canada, we're a vast landscape, fragmented media universe, media has its challenges in our marketplace to connect with English, French, multicultural, and it's always hard to determine where to spend that first dollar. So always go back to what the business challenge is at hand and what's the most effective medium you can use to resolve those business challenges.

00:22:23:05 - 00:22:33:23 Alison Great advice. Caroline, thank you so much for your time today and for a  really great, insightful conversation.

00:22:34:01 - 00:22:45:18 Speaker 1 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Raja Rajamannar, Chief Marketing and Communications Officer and President of Healthcare for Mastercard and author of Quantum Marketing. Alison and Raja delve into mastering time management, key trends in this golden age of marketing, inclusive design and the skills marketers need to future-proof the profession.

00:00:03:06 - 00:00:32:22 Unknown Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business themes. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 

Alison If you listened to our earlier episode with our board chair, Kerri Dawson, you absolutely know that future proofing the marketing profession is a top priority for the Canadian Marketing Association.

00:00:33:00 - 00:01:03:23 Alison We're very focused on helping marketers understand and manage the tectonic shifts that will fundamentally change how brands and businesses are built tomorrow, while also ensuring they're delivering on today's business needs. Today's guest is ideally suited to help us future proof marketing. Here's what he had to say about the current reality for marketers. "This era is driven by exponential disruptions, good and bad, in consumers' lives caused by a deluge of emerging technologies. And the resulting changes in the consumer landscape

00:01:04:01 - 00:01:34:03 Alison call for marketers to tap into the dynamics of the new paradigm and reinvent their entire approach." So it's my pleasure to welcome Raja Rajamannar to our podcast today. He's the Global Chief Marketing and Communications Officer and also the President of Health Care for MasterCard. Now, that would be more than enough to keep most of us busy. But Raja somehow found time to also write Quantum Marketing, which is a Wall Street Journal bestseller and must read for every marketer focused on the future.

00:01:34:05 - 00:01:58:13 Alison Raja is renowned for innovating for some of the world's top brands and businesses, and he's been recognized with many awards throughout his career. A few recent ones include Business Insider's twenty five most innovative CMO's in the world, WFA Global Marketer of the Year, Forbes Top five World's most influential CMO's, and the Campaign Power 100. Raja, thanks so much for joining us today.

00:01:58:15 - 00:02:23:14 Raja Thank you for having me here Alison. Much appreciated. 

Alison Now, I'm actually not going to start with the marketing question. When I think about your massive dual global mandate at MasterCard plus your different board roles and the fact that you found time to write a book, it's abundantly clear that you've mastered time management. So please let us know how you prioritize and determine where to focus your time to drive the greatest impact.

00:02:23:16 - 00:02:51:14 Raja The first thing is, I start with the premise that you cannot manage time. You manage yourself not the time. And time just keeps going on, right. You cannot bend it, cannot stop it. You cannot accelerate it. The key thing is, as one of the authors has written beautifully, the title of the book is 4000 Weeks. That's all our full life typically is, about eighty years.

00:02:51:16 - 00:03:19:18 Raja And in that kind of a 4000 week timeframe, you need to be crystal clear on what you really want to spend each one of those precious weeks. You can while away time on social media, endlessly scrolling, and that can actually keep you busy and entertained and occupied for a few hours every day? Or you can choose to educate yourself how to spend time and build relationships with people or write books or do something for the community.

00:03:19:19 - 00:03:43:05 Raja It's all up to you. So the first thing is, what do you want to focus on? Where do you want to put your efforts? So that's number one. Secondly, I would say that there are a lot of things that we'd like to do, but we don't have to do ourselves. You can delegate effectively both in your work situation as well as in your personal situation.

00:03:43:07 - 00:04:03:11 Raja So, for example, there are a lot of people I know who are very hesitant to give access to their emails, to their assistants, or to their chiefs of staff. But if you give access to them, they can make your life so much more easier because they scroll through everything that is unnecessary that doesn't have to take up your time.

00:04:03:17 - 00:04:24:23 Raja But you need to have confidence in yourself to say, Look, there is nothing there that is hidden that will come to bite me back. So long as you're open, operating with an open kimono, that's fantastic. So I think there are some work related work, as I would say, is not just work at the business context, but work in the personal life as well that you should be having to delegate.

00:04:25:01 - 00:04:47:02 Raja That's number two. So don't be everything yourself. You can't just do everything yourself. And there's so many things that you would like to do. Number three, I would say, is that you need to be really conscious of not wasting time on things that don't matter. A lot of times we sort of get... I'll give you a beautiful example, the CEO of MasterCard.

00:04:47:05 - 00:05:11:00  Raja Right, the current CEO or the previous CEO too. So I'll talk about current CEO, Michael Miebach. He says okay, I'll have a 15 minute monthly meeting with you. That's all that I have with him. Fifteen minutes on a monthly basis. But those are power bank 15 minutes and I don't have... And the fact that I know that is only 15 minutes, I prepare myself extremely well,

00:05:11:02 - 00:05:30:03 Raja the key points, and not be anxious to sort of keep filling up the time, with all kinds of things and to update him about everything that I'm doing. The point is you do that exactly the thing with your team members, with your colleagues, with vendors. People are hungry for your time, but you should realize that this is your time.

00:05:30:05 - 00:05:58:14 Raja You have to manage yourself, and your schedule, and your meetings based on your time. So now things like this, maybe actually one day I should write a book on this. That's a good idea. Thank you. Something useful for me from this podcast already. 

Alison I would definitely read that book and I know many of our listeners would as well. That's such great perspective, especially investing in communities and relationships, there's so many studies around what makes for a rich life and a long life.

00:05:58:14 - 00:06:34:21 Alison and those are absolutely core to that. 

Raja And in fact, if I can just start one point, in terms of productivity, I find that meditation is one of the best productivity tools. It increases your focus. It increases your clarity of thinking. And somehow you can become much more creative to come to solutions. And I find that that is an incredible way to manage your time, because even, for example, for somebody who is traveling around in various timezones, jet lag is a reality that you have to deal with.

00:06:34:23 - 00:06:55:01 Raja Meditation actually helps you to relax, to get your body reset. And then all the focus and creativity and everything really is at a peak. And I say that that's something which is to be wholeheartedly embraced by people who are looking for productivity tools. Many people look at meditation, God, I have to spend half an hour or 15 minutes on meditation.

00:06:55:01 - 00:07:17:17 Raja I don't have time. But actually, meditation makes time for other things for you because you do things more efficiently. 

Alison I've tried to meditate before. I'm a morning runner, so that's become my form of meditation. But you've given me pause and I will absolutely try meditation again. Now, Raja, you kicked off the year on a really inspiring note with a LinkedIn post that highlighted that this in many ways is the golden age of marketing.

00:07:17:18 - 00:07:43:09 Alison  You also acknowledge that classical marketers have lost a lot of ground in recent years, and you now see tremendous opportunity for marketers to reclaim their territory in 2024, which is absolutely music to our audience ears. So what trends would you say are making this year the start of the golden age of marketing? 

Raja There are multiple things. So firstly, if you look at the technologies that are very, very groundbreaking, right?

00:07:43:09 - 00:08:12:02 Raja In the past you had Internet, you had mobile, you had social platforms. Each one of these or a television or radio, they are all significant technological innovations that disrupted people's lives completely, transformed. And made them into a very, completely different kind of thing. For example, if you look at the pre 1996 era and post 1996 era, when you look back you say how could I have even lived without Internet before?

00:08:12:04 - 00:08:36:07 Raja Right? Internet has changed our lives dramatically and that opens up opportunities for marketing where you say, Hey, now I can reach consumers directly in real time, almost 1 to 1. I can be precise in my targeting. I can be very accurate in my measurements and so on. And that's how digital marketing was born. Same thing happened when mobile and social media came in 2007.

00:08:36:09 - 00:09:01:07 Raja The point is, today, unlike the previous paradigms of marketing, there are 24 new groundbreaking technologies that are coming up. Whether it is AI, or it is augmented reality, virtual reality, blockchains, 3D printing, 5G telecommunications. Already 6G is coming. It's around the corner. There are so many things that are actually happening at the space and proper technology perspective.

00:09:01:09 - 00:09:43:15 Raja Each of these technologies is independently capable of disrupting people's lives and businesses. The confluence of these 24 technologies is going to result in an unprecedented level of disruption. We haven't seen it yet. That's one part of it. But why is it good for marketing? Technology is a great leveller of the competitive field. In the past you had to be a big company with deep pockets to be able to invest in technology. Today, even if you are a tiny company with very modest marketing budgets, you can still access exactly the same technologies that a very large company is able to use. For $20 a month

00:09:43:15 - 00:10:21:11 Raja you can actually access the likes of ChatGPT, which are very powerful from a marketing perspective, probably we can discuss about that. So what happens to that kind of a context is that we have to realize that technology is going to be available to everyone. So you cannot distinguish and differentiate yourself based on technology anymore. Same is true for data, but the data privacy and regulations on one side and extreme collection of data on the other side, there is going to be a lot of anonymized and tokenized data that will be available for marketers across all industries and all companies large and small.

00:10:21:12 - 00:10:53:17 Raja If that is the case, what is going to distinguish one company from another company is its creativity and innovation. That's where marketing comes in. And we as marketers can actually advantage our companies by differentiating them, making them more relevant, making them more compelling to our target audiences. And that's something which is, I think, a dream come true. So today, for example, a lot of companies, particularly on the technology side, give a lot of importance to products, and their product is superior to marketing.

00:10:53:19 - 00:11:21:11 Raja It's ironical. When I was practicing marketing all these years, product was an integral part of marketing. It's the first P of the four Ps of marketing. But today there is a separate Chief Product Officer. There is a separate customer experience officer. So it's got fragmented. Now a product is very, very easy to replicate, particularly given the technological advancement, and the speed in terms of go to market is actually rapidly rising.

00:11:21:11 - 00:11:52:19 Raja So with the result of which, other people can replicate your products with equivalent or better functionality in a heartbeat. So if you want long term disruption, if you want long term differentiation at a competitive advantage, you have to connect emotionally. The emotional connection is what marketing is all about. It's about emote... generate the right emotions, engage consumers in a very compelling fashion and hold them close to you as a brand.

00:11:52:19 - 00:12:15:14 Raja That is what will give you the advantage compared to your competitors. And so marketing is going to be really the function that will drive companies. And therefore this is the golden era of marketing. 

Alison That's so well-said and technology as a great leveller is relevant globally. It's particularly relevant in Canada because 80% of our economy is driven by small and medium sized enterprises.

00:12:15:14 - 00:12:38:12 Alison So the fact that they can compete in a way that they haven't been able to in the past is a wonderful opportunity. Now, in looking at the tectonic shifts, do you still think the four Ps of marketing hold true? And it's more how they will be brought to light? 

Raja I feel that the entire framework for marketing has to be changed.

00:12:38:13 - 00:13:02:12 Raja And I had a conversation about this with my guru, who is Philip Kotler. If you think about it, the four Ps of marketing were formulated by Philip Kotler more than 60 years back. In 60 years, the world has transformed so dramatically. And that's what was the genesis of me writing this book. And I started asking myself, Are those still relevant?

00:13:02:13 - 00:13:29:08 Raja Is it like gravity, magnetism? These are things which don't change. They are very fundamental. They are foundational. They remain all the time. But is that true for marketing, or are things changing? So if you look at every single aspect of the marketing value chain, the concepts are no longer valid, the processes are completely inaccurate, and what we are doing is totally irrelevant.

00:13:29:10 - 00:13:51:23 Raja And I'm not saying it flippantly or just for effect. I'm saying it because I mean it. And I can tell you, let's take a couple of examples. Now, if you look at something like loyalty, the industry collectively spends about a billion, about $1,000,000,000,000 in RND every year, $1 trillion plus. There was a research report that came from BBC.

00:13:51:23 - 00:14:20:17 Raja It was published in BBC. And when I read it, what I found was that the research said it was being done amongst people who are either in a marriage or they were in a live-in  relationship. They asked them, How many of you have cheated on your partners? And the number was an astounding 70%. And a further 15% said that if they are sure they will not get caught, they don't mind straying.

00:14:20:19 - 00:14:49:02 Raja Now, I'm not here to make any value judgment, but when I think about it, I say, look, if 85% of the people who have made some kind of formal commitment already, or informal or implied commitment, and they know that the consequences are terrible if they are caught, still, they're not hardwired for loyalty. If in real life and on far more important things that people are not hardwired for loyalty, we come as marketers and say, You'll spend $1 and each dollar you spend

00:14:49:02 - 00:15:11:07 Raja I'll give you one point and then I'm not pretending that you are loyal to me. That is the biggest fallacy. We are kidding ourselves. And, look at anyone. Like I know, for example, if I look at myself, I have got more than five airline frequent flier program, loyalty program memberships. I've got every single hotel chain. I'm on their loyalty list.

00:15:11:09 - 00:15:41:01 Raja Same thing with grocery chains as well, my everyday spending. I've got Costco, I've got Walmart, I've got Amazon Prime. Who am I loyal to? These are not loyalty programs. They   are actually price incentives couched in a program. Loyalty is very, very misplaced in this context. We need stickiness. We need preference. So what, in fact, I suggested is that we should have a different framework to win and keep consumers on an ongoing basis.

00:15:41:03 - 00:16:09:13 Raja And that is what I call a preference management platform. And it should be technological driven and so on. So every area, whether you look at purchase, same thing is true. Market research. I actually started my career in market research and most recently I was chatting with the Head of Market Research and Consumer Insights at Unilever, and both of us were sort of commiserating and said the way we do market research is terrible and what you get is completely useless material and we rely on it as true.

00:16:09:15 - 00:16:32:00 Raja The reason is consumers cannot articulate why they have done something or why they like something. They are all subconscious. By very definition, if you ask somebody why you did it, they have to post-rationalize and tell you, and they are not psychologists to begin with. So the whole aspect of marketing has to be rethought. And that's exactly what I am saying, is what quantum marketing is about.

00:16:32:02 - 00:16:49:23 Raja And I share this with Philip Kotler, and it was so true. He had given me a note which I actually framed it and kept it in my home office because he is my guru and he is saying this is Raja actually what the future is. And what I have done is something which is which was very true for that era.

00:16:50:01 - 00:17:19:20 Raja  But I completely agree with you. We need to reinvent ourselves, rethink marketing the concepts, the frameworks, the strategies, and therefore the tactics. 

Alison So I'm going to jump to another emerging area that MasterCard is very much leading in, and that's around inclusive design. So you're definitely leading the charge in innovating with inclusive design. And your most recent announcement about Touch is a great example, which brings me to a few different questions, starting with what led to your focus on inclusive design and also if you could share the business case for inclusive design.

00:17:19:20 - 00:17:55:18 Alison I know our listeners would be very interested in that. 

Raja Yeah. Firstly, inclusive by design is not about political correctness. I think it's... It should be self evident that if somebody is in a distress and if you are in a position to help, if somebody has a problem and if it can solve that problem, genuinely and their problem might be unique than the rest of the mainstream, so to speak, if you help them, they are grateful to the solution that you have given and they stick by you and you can actually have a very profitable business proposition.

00:17:55:19 - 00:18:19:10 Raja I keep saying that if you pursue purpose, profits will follow. They are not mutually exclusive. So what we really need to think about is how can we do things that are truly inclusive and can we make a business case for it? I'll give you one example. So when we started looking at say, you mentioned about Touch.

00:18:19:12 - 00:18:46:14 Raja So when we started looking at how many blind people out there in the world, and how do they use their payment products today? The experience was shockingly horrible. And we said, My god, the number of blind people in this world, fully blind or partially blind, is about 2 billion. I hope that number is wrong, but that's what statistic after statistic is actually showing.

00:18:46:14 - 00:19:10:05 Raja Assume that the number is 1 billion, it is a humungous number from just from a segment point of view. My grandmother was blind and I have a deep connection to that space, therefore, because growing up I have seen what she went through. Now, in this context, coming back to my business, which is credit cards and payments, payment cards,  prepaid cards, debit cards, small.

00:19:10:06 - 00:19:28:18 Raja We said, how can we make it easy for a blind person to be able to use our cards? How do they know which is the front of the card, back of the card, where is the chip? Is it a debit card? Is it a credit card? Is it a MasterCard or some other card? How do they distinguish other than by putting it in a specific slot in that wallet or in their purse?

00:19:28:20 - 00:19:55:03 Raja So we said Braille should be the solution, because everyone is supposed to read Braille. But shockingly, a very tiny percentage of people, less than 10% of people who are sight impaired know how to read Braille. So that cannot be a solution. So we started racking our brains and eventually came up with that extremely simple solution where you provide a small notch on the side of the card, the shape of the notch tells you the type of the card. The location of the notch,

00:19:55:03 - 00:20:16:20 Raja if it is on the right side, just below the centre, you are holding the card the right way. If there is a notch, it is MasterCard. Now in one single small notch, we really came up with a comprehensive nice solution. When we launched it, what happens? It is now one of the fastest growing products that we have got. Highly profitable, already launched in 35 countries around the world.

00:20:16:22 - 00:20:42:03 Raja So there is, the results are coming from a business perspective, but the focus was actually on trying to solve the problem in a real way. And I have received countless emails from, I thought actually, even though my grandmother was blind, somehow I associated blindness with more elderly aged people. What I saw is so many mothers of kids who are teenagers and so on.

00:20:42:05 - 00:21:02:13 Raja They said we are so grateful for the solution because this is life changing for my child. It was unbelievable. The key thing is, it is hitting the right nerve amongst the audiences, those who are your core target audience, as well as the secondary tertiary audiences who are not blind themselves, but see the plight of the blind  people.

00:21:02:15 - 00:21:27:13 Raja So this is something which is absolutely energizing. And when you talk of this, you know, purpose driven, that's one thing also which is very important is that attracting the right talent and keeping them at the company is very important, particularly if you are not the highest paid. And we don't want to compete on salaries or compensation. We want to compete on giving them the quality of the satisfaction of their work, right. of what they are doing.

00:21:27:15 - 00:21:53:01 Raja When you become truly purpose driven and really put your money where your mouth is and be consistent in your commitment to the cause and that the purpose you have a higher retention level, you are able to attract all the best talent. So it really solved so many things. So when people said, I have to do something purpose and it is a work thing or it is something which is basically meant for political correctness, I would say, stop, you've got it wrong.

00:21:53:03 - 00:22:12:00 Alison That's such a great example. I was on the board for the CNIB for six years, so I have a personal connection to it as well. But your example is also such a powerful counterpoint to the earlier conversation we had around loyalty, where the loyalty programs that we think are really building that true connection between brands and consumers are flawed.

00:22:12:06 - 00:22:49:13 Alison What you're doing from an inclusive design and recognizing a pain point that was solved with such a brilliant and simple solution is really driving true loyalty. Now, as we look to the future of marketing, what skills are most important for marketers in managing through the tech tsunami that we're all living through?

Raja I would say most of the top marketers, I would say, particularly the classical marketers, they're very good at psychology, sociology, design and areas like that, and the contemporary marketers are the ones who are more quantitative, analytical and they are much more left brained in their thinking.

00:22:49:15 - 00:23:16:15 Raja What you really need is a combination of these two. So which means you need people like Leonardo da Vinci, who are not easy to come by, and if they are there, they don't want to join marketing. They want to be in Silicon Valley or investment bank or be consultants. So we've got a tough challenge on that. But basically one of the things that we have to recognize is the future is going to be with the classical marketers who train themselves and upscale themselves at all technologies, data and finances.

00:23:16:17 - 00:23:34:22 Raja It's a little bit of going against that core grain, how to put the effort. Not to become experts in technology. So, for example, AI is coming, right? It's already upon us. People are saying AI is there, what do we do, how can we use it and stuff like that. But the fact is AI has been around for a long time.

00:23:34:22 - 00:23:57:21 Raja And MasterCard, we have been using it for more than ten years. And they built a whole digital marketing engine using AI and automation out of Singapore, six years back, before gen AI came. Now when gen AI came, that's when the prominence of overall AI has shot up. And many times marketers mean gen AI as the real AI, but as it is just a type of AI across the board.

00:23:57:23 - 00:24:24:23 Raja Now, the point is that if you don't know what AI is and what it can do, you get left behind very quickly. And I have seen the kind of productivity enhancements that AI can give you. It actually like, for example, in the B2B context. Okay. As an example, we have something called the RFP factory, which will respond to various RFPs that are given, sent to MasterCard. It used to take about 7 to 8 weeks before.

00:24:25:01 - 00:24:50:22 Raja Now it takes less than what that one day. One day. It takes, it frees up resources, it standardizes your responses, makes it more accurate and current. And it really looks at all the past RFPs that you have done, takes the tone out of those, takes the creatives out of those and really composes something which is incredibly more powerful than what a human being can do today. And in less than one day.

00:24:51:00 - 00:25:13:01 Raja So what the point is, if I am able to now do these kind of things across the entire marketing value chain, the gains can be incredible. But I talked about the digital marketing, the digital engine in Singapore that we created and now it is all around work. They're getting productivity enhancement between four and eight times. I'm not talking percentages, but I'm talking about multiples.

00:25:13:01 - 00:25:44:17 Raja So that's huge. I can kill my competition with that kind of a productivity. Now if you are not really caught up with the latest and greatest as far as technological enablements are concerned, you'll become obsolete, you'll be left behind. So the first thing I would tell marketers is you need to understand the new technologies. At this stage in my life and in my career, I spend about 5 to 6 hours every week educating myself on something new or deepening my knowledge on a subject that I wanted to pursue deeper.

00:25:44:18 - 00:26:01:06 Raja I think that's one thing people have to do. So skills wise, I would say learning agility today and investing time behind learning is the number one priority. 

Alison That's such great advice and if you can find 5 hours to do it, there is no excuse for the rest of us. Now, before we go, you've been very generous with your time.

00:26:01:06 - 00:26:25:15 Alison I'd like to have you share one piece of advice that you think marketers most need to embrace in the year ahead. 

Raja Learning. We spoke about it. But the second thing I would also say is that from a company's point of view, any company, I have worked at multiple companies are closely tracked in my voluntary role as the president of WFA, with my peers, CMOs around the countries across various companies.

00:26:25:17 - 00:26:48:22 Raja One of the biggest things is the C-suite in most of the companies doesn't get marketing. Whether it is a CEO, whether it is a CFO, whether it is a CIO, CHRO. Their understanding of marketing is very low. When their understanding of marketing is very low, you don't get full justice for what your team desires and they deserve, right.

00:26:49:00 - 00:27:23:09 Raja And you have to evangelize marketing, that the evangelization of marketing becomes with educating your peers. So one of the things I would say is for the coming year, if there is one priority organizationally that people have to set for themselves, is to build close bridges between themselves and the other C-suite executives and slowly pull them into the fold of marketing, meaning, involve them in their campaign creation, do creative workshops for them. They love get doing those kind of things because in their jobs there is not a whole bunch of creativity, honestly.

00:27:23:11 - 00:27:44:14 Raja Okay, and get them, take them to sponsorship events. Let them see the power of how your brand can be brought to life, how experiences can be curated. When you start drawing in these C-suite colleagues into the fold, what you'll see is they start embracing marketing, the start supporting marketing, then they'll start advocating for marketing. And that's a journey.

00:27:44:14 - 00:28:04:09 Raja It doesn't happen overnight, but I think the beginning of the journey, I would say if marketers are not already doing it, it's high time that you do it. And of course I talked about learning. 

Alison That's such great advice and and evangelizing for marketing, it's inherent in the examples you've shared that in doing that effectively, it's all around the business performance and business results

00:28:04:09 - 00:28:23:19 Alison marketing can drive too. When you think about how to get the attention of the CEO and CFO, certainly it's got to be coming from what's in the best interests of the business and how marketing is playing a pivotal role in the success and growth of the business as well. 

Raja Absolutely 

Alison Well Raja, it has been an absolute delight. Thank you so much and I hope you have a wonderful day.

00:28:23:21 - 00:28:45:18 Raja Thank you, Alison. Thank you very much for having me, and you too, have a great day. Thank you. 

Unknown Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, sits down with Cynthia Pachovski, CEO of Ipsos Canada and Daniel Bernhard, CEO of the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Together, they dive into their recent newcomer research, highlighting the myths and realities of racial diversity, the skills and talents newcomers bring, and their role in Canada's prosperity.

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:19:13 Speaker 1 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:24:18 - 00:00:53:08 Alison Canada, long known for our cultural diversity, has been a real beacon of hope and new beginnings for many. But beyond the warm welcomes, newcomers play an absolutely pivotal role in our nation's economic strength, as well as our demographic framework. They're more than just new faces. They're central to Canada's character and also Canada's growth. Consider this. In the last five year period, a stunning 79.9% of Canada's population growth has been attributed to immigration.

00:00:54:01 - 00:01:13:19 Alison And it's not just about numbers. It's about the fresh perspectives and skills that they bring with them. Over half of the immigrants who have made Canada their home were economic candidates who are well-poised to help grow and advance our country. The dynamic nature of Canada's economy is very closely linked to the fresh talent and entrepreneurship that's brought in by immigrants.

00:01:14:10 - 00:01:39:07 Alison For our business community and marketers, it's clear. Embracing diversity and innovation of our newest Canadians is key to our country's prosperity. In this episode, I'm thrilled to be joined by Cynthia Pachovski, CEO of Ipsos and Daniel Bernhard, CEO for the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Ipsos and the Institute for Canadian Citizenship have joined forces to conduct a very robust research study on newcomers to Canada.

00:01:40:01 - 00:02:01:13 Alison In this discussion, we're going to explore the intriguing research findings that not only reveal the substantial contributions that newcomers bring to Canada's growth, but also some of the challenges that they face and the insights that can help revolutionize how we as marketers and citizens connect with and support this dynamic demographic. So welcome, Cynthia and Daniel.

00:02:01:23 - 00:02:02:16 Daniel Thanks for having me.

00:02:03:05 - 00:02:03:20 Cynthia Hello. Hi.

00:02:04:12 - 00:02:15:07 Alison So I'd like to start by having you share how newcomers contribute to Canada's population and economic growth. It would also be great to hear what impact the recent policy changes may have on these contributions.

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:38:23 Daniel Immigrants are, as you know, essential to Canada's future. But actually, I want to also talk before I do that about Canada's past. Canada's been an immigrant nation since that since the very beginning, before Europeans came here, there was lots of migration among Indigenous people from place to place, traveling and having to integrate into communities where they would arrive and abide by those laws. Afterwards were welcomed,

00:02:38:23 - 00:02:59:13 Daniel Europeans were welcomed here by Indigenous people, and the idea of Canada perpetually has been that there's more than enough to go around. It's a bountiful land and that you can come here and not be a renter, so to speak, but an owner of our society, not just a resident but a citizen. It's one of the things that distinguishes Canada from a place like Dubai, for example, where there's a huge foreign-born population.

00:02:59:18 - 00:03:20:20 Daniel They'll just never be owners of that society. You know, in Canada, you can be. And so immigrants continue to play an incredibly important role in Canadian life and the economy. We're talking about 80% of population growth, as you mentioned, over 100% of labour force growth in many cases. And a key driver of innovation, bringing with them ideas and perspectives from around the world.

00:03:21:02 - 00:03:38:16 Daniel The current policy changes that you talked about, well, I think what we see now is that Canada is beginning to turn its back towards immigrants. And at the same time, we see immigrants turning their back towards Canada. We can talk about that a little bit more if you like. But more and more, whether it's housing, health care, the education system,

00:03:38:16 - 00:04:07:22 Daniel Now in post-secondary education, it seems as though immigration is a key variable or axis in any of these policy discussions from a labor supply or, you know, supposed over abundance of demand for these services. We can talk about why those things aren't true if you want. But immigration is becoming a more and more important issue. And we believed really that if an issue this important can't just be managed on a whim, it needs to be managed based on data and based on the contributions of the many tens of thousands of newcomers themselves.

00:04:08:03 - 00:04:20:20 Daniel So many people purport to speak for them, and we decided through this partnership that they could be able to speak for themselves. So it's a central issue in Canada and we wanted to make sure there was really good sound data for policymakers and business leaders alike and to be able to adapt and contribute.

00:04:21:22 - 00:04:30:05 Alison I'd love you to do some myth busting  and help us really understand the important role and how some of the things that are in the press really aren't true.

00:04:31:13 - 00:04:57:00 Cynthia So, interestingly, around the housing crisis, there is a sort of a tension here in the sense that the rising immigration is seen as a certain main reason for the housing crisis and most of the newcomers actually suffer from it at the same time. So it's not just on one situation. On one end, it's actually share the problem.

00:04:57:09 - 00:05:11:12 Cynthia 68% of immigrants say that it's the first problem or challenge they are facing when they arrived in Canada and even 86% of them say that the situation is worse than they expected on the matter.

00:05:11:20 - 00:05:32:01 Daniel And so what does this mean? This means that if Canada's dependent on immigrants for economic growth, social vitality and renewal, and all other manner of benefits, we need to stop just thinking about how many immigrants we quote, let in and permit, as though their situation in their home countries is so bad and everything in Canada is so good that the only question is how wide to open the door.

00:05:32:08 - 00:05:50:11 Daniel And what we're seeing is that actually people are coming here and saying, I don't know if I can make it here and they're leaving. And with them go talents and ideas and prosperity and potential. And so one of the things that we really wanted to do is clarify who immigrants are in this study. And that's something that's interesting for policymakers, but also for marketers and business leaders alike.

00:05:50:16 - 00:06:05:15 Daniel It's the only growing segment of the consumer economy and understanding them, I think, will be very beneficial not only in providing better service and meaning in the marketplace, as is probably a phrase that gets thrown around a lot on this podcast, but also for being a contributor to a positive life in the national interest.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:11:22 Alison Daniel, I'd love to have you share with our listeners your definition of immigrants that were used for the study.

00:06:12:03 - 00:06:34:12 Daniel So the immigrants in this study are members of our Canoo Access Pass, this is an app that the Institute for Canadian Citizenship operates that gives people in their first five years of permanent residency free access to over 2000 of Canada's best culture and nature experiences, discounts with Air Canada, Via rail, pro sports, wine tours, ziplining, whale watching, you name it,

00:06:34:12 - 00:06:58:06 Daniel We got it. And the idea is to make the decision to move to Canada sticking and irreversible that people have a great time here, believe in this place, buy into it, become citizens and contribute for the long haul as Canadians. And so we have served over 400,000 people with this. Historically, there are about 250,000 people who are using it today, and they are the subjects effectively of this, of this research.

00:06:58:06 - 00:07:17:21 Daniel They come from all walks of life, all parts of Canada, and they are quite representative of immigrants themselves. They're younger than the Canadian population in general. They're better educated than the Canadian population in general. They come from very, very high future income potential, and they're quite optimistic and they're looking to make their way. So it's it's a really fascinating audience in a mode of discovery.

00:07:18:06 - 00:07:29:08 Daniel And they have been actually very, very forthcoming and eager to share their perspectives about how Canada can serve them better so that they, in turn, can make future contributions to Canada that are more valuable and enduring.

00:07:29:08 - 00:07:57:03 Cynthia And I would add that by this medium of having access to new Canadians, we are already at the, in the moment, at the perfect timing to be the most representative possible of immigrants because they are being captured precisely when they become citizens. So that's another very positive facts of the approach so that we have the best coverage possible of immigrants.

00:07:58:06 - 00:08:09:03 Alison That's great, Cynthia. I'd love to build on that. Given the importance of newcomers in Canada's growth, I know our listeners will be very interested to hear about the new research you collaborated on and how your two organizations came together.

00:08:10:04 - 00:08:37:11 Cynthia And Ipsos We have been working on this audience, immigrants and newcomers for a while. We have a lot of clients that we have that the requirements within the project and the results that we do. We ourselves have a community online, community offering newcomers where it's more a quality approach. And the big challenge that we have in market research in general is the ability to reach to

00:08:37:11 - 00:09:10:09 Cynthia Newcomers at scale, right? Because there is a lot of granularity, as you can imagine, because of the cultural background differences, because of the origins, the reason why you are coming to Canada, it's so diverse in nature that you need massive samples, if you want, of newcomers, to be able to understand what is at stake. And these granularity could only be a match with such a solution that the app and the members that the ICC has at their disposal.

00:09:10:10 - 00:09:27:13 Cynthia So it was kind of the meeting of the best world in this, and that's a market research founder and our already strong knowledge of newcomers and the ICC expertise and, and a pool of newcomers at their disposal.

00:09:28:02 - 00:09:56:14 Daniel You know and for us, I mean we had this this asset I suppose you can say this this audience, and we were increasingly frustrated by the clear lack of understanding in corporate Canada about who these people are and what they want. And so, for example, you know, there's a trend in advertising, as in the arts and in many other domains, to sort of fetishize diversity, to think that people who come from India, for example, just want to see Indian things.

00:09:56:14 - 00:10:17:12 Daniel And you know, that the multi-multi category, as they used to call it, and this was not only, you know, offensive, but also really counterproductive, our research shows that actually 96% of people who use our service are looking to have interactions with people outside of their cultural, ethnic and social group. And so we saw that this group was actually very misunderstood.

00:10:17:20 - 00:10:42:09 Daniel And Ipsos, as a as a research firm, also seems to have a really strong grasp of the fact that a customer is a whole person. They don't just exist in the marketplace and then go away. They vote, they have political interests, they've got other needs. And so we wanted to reflect that and understand that the stuff you buy and the services you receive and your corporate life as a consumer are huge, huge, huge, huge, huge influences

00:10:42:09 - 00:11:09:03 Daniel on your experience of life in Canada. That's just how it goes. And if we're not able to put the voices of newcomers into boardrooms, then we're going to really limit our impact and our ability to make Canada an enjoyable place. And so this was really a win win. Their philosophy, their focus on ESG really resonated with us. Cynthia's an immigrant herself, understands this experience really well from a personal perspective, and we wanted to put this asset to work in service of our mission.

00:11:09:03 - 00:11:15:14 Daniel So it was a really it was a really wonderful partnership that hopefully will bear fruits not just for us, but also for people who participate and subscribe to the study.

00:11:16:04 - 00:11:55:06 Cynthia And another dimension that making a difference here is your ability to get insights over time. One of the key learning we got from the pre study we did is newcomers are not a static audience and it's the needs and and perception and expectations are evolving, with is actually a pretty short time span. And it's very important to be on top of this evolution and this and these changes to make sure that precisely government and companies can address that at the right time.

00:11:56:06 - 00:12:00:15 Alison What are some of the most surprising findings that you've uncovered in the Newcomers study so far?

00:12:01:09 - 00:12:30:21 Cynthia One of the most interesting fact finding is that from a newcomers' perspective, Canada is not necessarily delivering on promise. Immigration is expected to be one of the key drivers of economic growth in Canada. Still, newcomers say that the situation is worse than they expected before coming, for housing, for their financial situation and also professional integration.

00:12:31:10 - 00:12:58:14 Cynthia So there are a lot of essential aspects at stake when that one of the reason they came to Canada and the situation is not as promising as it was supposed to be. And we have one quote you'll find very interesting to encapsulate, that is, I'm not sure it is worth the money I am losing each year and cannot progress I lack. How and when will I be able to recover from this time gap.

00:12:58:21 - 00:13:08:22 Cynthia So that promise is high and delivering on that promise is an issue that as a society and as an economy, we need to to address.

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:30:19 Daniel I found some really interesting things, you know, for example, people's disappointment with Canada seems to grow, not shrink with the time that they're here. In other words, you would think that someone settles in and has a hard go that and then gradually finds their way. But actually, you know, satisfaction with some of the kind of key pillars of of of the corporate scene declines progressively as people get familiar.

00:13:30:19 - 00:13:52:12 Daniel The more they know, the less they like. There's also some interesting findings, especially around financial services and some other kind of high value sectors where, you know, we see these companies pouring so much money into pre-arrival clients, like trying to get people the first day that they come. But actually there are indications that there are windows of switch-ability resulting from this dissatisfaction

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:12:19 Daniel much later in the piece that some of these companies haven't seem to realize yet. Instead, they're pouring money into people who are pre-arrival, who may be leaving because they're international students or they're on a temporary visa or they don't get permanent residency. So we've started to also see some sort of key disconnects between the data and that sort of typical practices in the marketplace, that I think have been really have been really fascinating.

00:14:12:19 - 00:14:43:23 Daniel But the one that just really jumps out to me is people, as Cynthia said, they do feel welcomed by the government, by society, by other Canadians, and the level of dissatisfaction in some of these major categories, which I don't need to name, but I think you can all guess, suggest that there are real great opportunities for companies that want to be a little bit more ambitious and a little bit more effective to win in this category and in so doing, make light the life experience of newcomers in Canada so much better so that they stay, become citizens and contribute for the long term.

00:14:43:23 - 00:14:52:23 Daniel So there's a lot of opportunity and a lot of zones of opportunity that have been identified just in this formative initial study and in subsequent waves, I think we'll get deeper and deeper into.

00:14:54:09 - 00:15:27:12 Cynthia Link to that, another very interesting fact is that, you know, we were talking about the fact that it's a very dynamic audience, if I may, or group, and you know, the journey and the immigration stage you are in is everything. So at first the expectations are pretty basic. It's more about price, it's pragmatism, it's effectiveness. In the service you are expecting from companies and the time passes and your level of expectations are growing.

00:15:27:17 - 00:15:51:09 Cynthia For instance, we have observed that for banking, the satisfaction never are going down from when you arrived until the third year. Let's say it's almost the fourth year of your arrival in Canada. And that's when churn is likely to happen, right? And then we go to another bank, right, to get better, a better service, because your expectation has grown.

00:15:51:09 - 00:16:10:18 Cynthia You have started to build a life for yourself. You have your assets, certainly back from your country of origin, and the level of expectation is completely different. So adapting to these dynamics is essential for businesses to continue to to succeed with this consumer group.

00:16:11:11 - 00:16:28:09 Alison Beyond the dissatisfaction, you also mentioned that the situation is insenting newcomers to opt out of Canada, and that's clearly a trajectory that we would want to change. So do you have any initial learning or advice on what we can do to improve the situation for newcomers so that they don't opt out and decide to leave Canada?

00:16:29:03 - 00:16:50:00 Daniel I'd like to just take a second, if I may, some of your listeners may not be familiar with the extent to which immigrants are opting out of Canada. We published a study at the end of October last year in collaboration with the Conference Board of Canada, called The Leaky Bucket, which actually answered a question that I had for two years that, you know, how many immigrants are staying in Canada and actually the government didn't know.

00:16:50:00 - 00:17:11:03 Daniel And until we looked into it, no one had bothered to check, which is revealing in and of itself, showed that Canada's immigration retention rate has declined by 31% in recent years. We're talking about, you know, significant changes. It used to take 25 years for 20% of an immigrant cohort to leave the country. Now it takes less than 20 years and that's shrinking

00:17:11:03 - 00:17:38:16 Daniel considerably. Among certain cohorts, it's even higher. So investor class, entrepreneur class, small and medium business owners, people who are admitted in these categories are almost twice as likely to leave the country within ten years as their counterparts in other immigration categories. So this is humongous. I mean, from a from a consumer segment perspective, it's huge. From a labour force perspective, it's a humongous problem. From a capital investment perspective, it's a huge, huge issue.

00:17:38:22 - 00:17:58:13 Daniel So I think Canada doesn't necessarily realize that our story of immigrants being people who show up with no English and $5 in their pocket like my parents did, work hard and make their way through and all that kind of stuff. We still tell that story. You know who the contemporary immigrant is? It's Cynthia, who's the CEO of a major corporation of the Canadian outlet.

00:17:58:17 - 00:18:24:18 Daniel Right? With major global experience. And if she decides that Canada isn't working for her, that's our loss, not hers. And so we need to shift our mindset from immigration being something that we do as an exercise of compassion to something that we do as an exercise of ambition and realize that we are competing with other countries in the world, including the home countries that these people come from, whose economic status has increased dramatically in recent decades.

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:58:19 Daniel And so, you know, if you're a phone provider in Canada as a telco, I'm just giving an example, you know, you're Bell, you're not just competing against Rogers and Telus, you're competing against the standard of people in India who are able to get way better service for way less money, and that's their expectation that you're competing against. So I think we just need to recognize that as Canada's become more and more selective about who we bring into the country, that the status and quality and characteristics and capabilities of the immigrant population has grown immeasurably, which means that they also are more mobile and they have other options.

00:18:59:01 - 00:19:14:21 Daniel And if they exercise those options, that's bad for your business from a staffing perspective, it's bad for your business from a consumer perspective, and it's bad for the entire country that needs both your business and the employment market and all of these other things to be humming and growing. Immigration has been the source of that growth and immigrants turn their back on Canada,

00:19:14:21 - 00:19:35:21 Daniel Canada is the one who pays the price. So that's been the situation. And in terms of winning, in terms of making the situation better, like I said earlier, a better experience in daily consumer life makes a difference. If you get off the phone with your cell phone company and they're ripping you off and charging all kinds of terrible fees and you feel terrible about it, you will say, Why did I come here?

00:19:35:21 - 00:19:56:01 Daniel This is awful, right? And so it's not just about your consumer experience, but which company you choose. This informs your experience of life in Canada. And I think that companies need to be recognizing that they're having a bigger impact, not just whether they win or lose a customer, but actually whether Canada wins or loses a contributor. It's much bigger than just your business.

00:19:56:13 - 00:20:29:00 Cynthia Fun fact - to illustrate what Daniel is saying is, when we ask a question about how do you feel treated, if you feel welcome, new Canadians, as well as Canadians by the way, feel very positive about it, but it's relatively less about businesses, how they are treated and welcomed by businesses than any other institutional non-for-profit organization. So it's not negative, but they don't say like we are not welcome, we are not treated well, but relatively less than other instances.

00:20:29:00 - 00:20:51:01 Daniel And this should be obvious to marketers, right? I mean, you know, marketers don't sell that we have the best widget for less money, right? They sell, they sell existential stuff, they sell belonging, they sell status, they sell sex appeal, they sell whatever. Right. Marketers intuitively should understand that people's relationship with these products are associated with broader satisfaction with life.

00:20:51:08 - 00:21:00:18 Daniel And what we're seeing is that in this category anyways, people don't seem to totally get it. And that message is getting through to immigrants and it affects the degree to which they think that Canada is a viable choice.

00:21:01:21 - 00:21:21:12 Alison  So given Canada's cultural mosaic, lots of smart marketers have long embraced multicultural marketing. It might be tempting for some brands to think that their multicultural marketing also addressed newcomers. So it would be really helpful for you to speak to some of the key differences that are really unique to newcomers and how best to reach and market to them.

00:21:22:12 - 00:21:44:03 Daniel While this Ipsos study doesn't get into that right away, and as Cynthia said before, we're just going to become more and more granular, more and more specific as the study picks up momentum, I can tell you from other research that the Institute for Canadian Citizenship has done ourselves on the same population that, you know, we've learned that there are some major blind spots that marketers have.

00:21:44:08 - 00:22:05:10 Daniel For example, assuming that people's attachment to their home culture is greater than their desire to integrate into Canadian society. You know, we're a small team. We have 33 people on our staff. They come from 18 different countries. And so we're able to get a pretty strong perspective just in the office. And people say, I didn't want to live in Pakistan anymore.

00:22:05:10 - 00:22:31:09 Daniel I wanted to move to Canada. And as much as it's great to receive my marketing in Urdu, I speak English very well. I've got a Ph.D. which I wrote in English, and I want to know what life is like here. And so this idea of belonging into the country, of treating newcomers in many cases is like a separate fetishized category, that don't speak the language, that have no cultural awareness and need to be sort of spoon fed in these strangely patronizing ways which people believe,

00:22:31:09 - 00:22:48:19 Daniel I think, they intention them well, they believe them to just be accommodation or welcoming or flexibility or, you know, whatever you want to use. But actually it sort of disregards what people's experience tends to be, which is they want to come to Canada, They want to do stuff that Canadians do, and they want to be they want to be involved.

00:22:48:19 - 00:23:10:02 Daniel And so I think that's that's one big difference that we're learning and also that sensitivities like, you know, price and things like that apply even more so to this population that has big expectations about improving their lot in life compared to the typical consumer who of course, wants to make more money and do better, but may have smaller ambitions or smaller expectations of a big jump

00:23:10:09 - 00:23:30:06 Daniel than someone who's made such a dramatic move as to move country. They're expecting something much more and they're much more price-sensitive. So there's that plus the sort of cultural misunderstanding in the marketing. I think these are two things that our other research have taught us need to be addressed. And this research, that tells us what we don't want to do in this research, I think will start to tell us what we do want to do

00:23:30:10 - 00:23:34:06 Daniel And that's where I think the main value will be, will be to the subscribers.

00:23:35:10 - 00:24:19:04 Cynthia Another important fact that can help your point here is the impact and the importance of influencers. Like influencers of newcomers, particularly in the first few years. There is a lot of community building for newcomers and yeah this, not new Canadians that have been there for a while become a source of influence of advice for newcomers and that's more where the community express itself within this group.

00:24:20:03 - 00:24:45:12 Daniel Anecdotally I'll just add one last thing, which is that I think that newcomers to some extent feel exploited. They feel exploited by landlords, they feel exploited by educational institutions, they feel undervalued by their employers in large respect, and their statistics to bear that out. And to the extent that they just get marketed at, you know, very aggressively and quite transparently, based on their immigration status, I think people get defensive.

00:24:45:12 - 00:25:02:04 Daniel And one of the main advantages of our Canoo Pass, marketing through it, but also the research that we derive as a result from it, is that we are trusted in a sense because we're giving gifts. We're telling people, you're welcome, you're welcome here, you're in demand here, and we're going to put you up at the front of the line.

00:25:02:04 - 00:25:17:13 Daniel And so I think that building a trust relationship is also very important. And and we may not be doing that enough. Now, that's not something that our research bears out just yet. You could perhaps make associations, but it's something that we found in our general experience that I think marketers would do well to take to heart.

00:25:18:02 - 00:25:28:04 Alison So to close off our discussion, I'd love to have you each share one piece of advice for our listeners around what they can do to support and encourage newcomers to Canada.

00:25:29:00 - 00:26:08:00 Cynthia Now in French, we have a saying that says ********** meaning the advisors are not the ones paying the bills. What I would say is - listen, listen, be open, listen dynamically. Newcomers, as we said, it's a very moving dynamic group, that to make sure every dollar you invest in them, you get the return to investment that you want.

00:26:08:00 - 00:26:22:19 Cynthia You need to capture the essence of what they need at the moment they need it. That makes it pretty both interesting as marketers to work on, and that's what's going to the most rewarding for you.

00:26:23:13 - 00:26:41:00 Daniel The other thing I would just emphasize is to remember that when you're investing in a relationship with with a newcomer to Canada, you're not just investing in a new customer. Like when Bell calls me and says, go, you know, come from Rogers or Rogers calls me and says, come from Bell, and we just play this game back and forth.

00:26:41:18 - 00:27:13:17  Daniel You're investing in a lifelong relationship with somebody who will associate your brand and their experience with your brand, with how they perceive life in Canada more generally. And so you're doing a huge service to Canada, especially in these fundamental categories, if your customers are satisfied. But more than that, people who are facing discrimination, who are being charged rent too high, who don't know anybody who are having trouble making social networks, they will remember the people who treated them well.

00:27:13:17 - 00:27:37:01 Daniel And we could do a whole other podcast about brand stories from immigrants that I've heard who say when we came here and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we always eat at this restaurant every single time that we go on a road trip, because of that relationship between that restaurant and our immigration journey. You are talking to people at a hugely influential, open minded point in their lives when they're building lifelong brand loyalties in Canada.

00:27:37:16 - 00:27:49:04 Daniel That's a real opportunity that's different than just winning another switcher. And if you don't realize that, I think it will be to your detriment. So that would be the other thing. These are not just normal customers. This is a lifelong relationship at stake.

00:27:49:12 - 00:28:12:17 Alison So not surprisingly, this has been an incredibly insight, rich discussion. You have also done a really great job of myth busting and really bringing to light the important role of immigrants to our country, as well as the sophistication and, and who they are and challenged certainly my thinking, and others thinking, and stereotypes to become a lot more broad.

00:28:13:03 - 00:28:28:17 Alison So huge thank you, Cynthia and Daniel, for a truly great discussion. I'm fascinated to see how the research continues. Would love to have you both back in a few months to share some updates, but thank you both for a really, really great discussion.

00:28:29:00 - 00:28:29:13 Speaker 4 Thank you.

00:28:29:13 - 00:28:33:10 Speaker 3 Thank you.

00:28:33:10 - 00:28:53:20 Speaker 1 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Kim Saunders, Vice President of ESG Strategy and Community Impact at Canadian Tire Corporation. Canadian Tire is dedicated to business growth and creating real change through philanthropy, ESG initiatives, fostering diversity, equity, and inclusion, championing gender equality in sports, and giving back to communities to shape a brighter future for Canada for generations to come.

00:00:00:07 - 00:00:22:12 Unknown Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada’s marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today’s business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:14 - 00:00:46:01 Alison Welcome to a pivotal discussion on marketers and brands embracing ESG, environmental, social and governance. It’s a strategy that’s proving to be more than just an ethical choice, but absolutely a transformative business advantage and a really important way for marketers and businesses to get back to the communities that they’re part of. Amidst the cultural shift towards environmental consciousness, as well as social accountability,

00:00:46:03 - 00:01:10:18 Alison ESG is often taking centre stage. And again, it’s not merely as a compliance checklist, but as a core pillar of visionary business leadership. Beyond being the right thing to do, it’s also smart business. Companies that are integrating ESG principles are witnessing very tangible benefits. They’re seeing improved investment returns, enhanced brand loyalty and business resilience in the face of global challenges.

00:01:10:19 - 00:01:45:14 Alison In Canada, the positive ripples of ESG centred operations resonate with heightened consumer expectations that are driving companies to innovate for a better tomorrow. In today’s episode, we’re joined by an absolute leading light in corporate Canada’s journey towards sustainability and impactful community engagement. It’s a pleasure for me to have Kim Saunders with us today as the vice president of ESG Strategy, Community Impact and Sponsorships for Canadian Tire. Kim’s responsible for the strategic development and programmatic build out of the company’s ESG strategy and philanthropic spending.

00:01:45:16 - 00:02:06:14 Alison She also leads the marketing and fundraising support for the company’s charity partner, Jumpstart, and has successfully developed some really exciting strategic community and sports partnerships. We’re really looking forward to chatting with her about those today. So Kim, I’m absolutely thrilled to have you on our podcast.  Kim  Amazing. Thank you for having me.    Alison So, Kim, as you know, I had the pleasure of chatting with Canadian

00:02:06:15 - 00:02:30:21 Alison Tire Chief Brand and Customer Officer Susan O’Brien on CMA Connect last year. It was very evident from that conversation and also from the one that you and I had earlier, that in addition to Canadian Tire being a renowned Canadian brand and delivering strong, consistently powerful business results and growth, you’re also very much focused on giving back to the country and communities that you’re part of.

00:02:30:23 - 00:02:50:18 Alison I know philanthropy and ESG have been a longstanding part of the Canadian Tire business, and approach. I also understand that it evolved fairly dramatically throughout the pandemic. So can you share a little bit about how it evolved and how that impacted your brand values? I know our listeners will also really enjoy hearing how you’re now focusing your efforts from an ESG perspective.

00:02:50:23 - 00:03:08:04 Kim Yeah, absolutely. I'm thrilled to be here and talk about this topic. It's very near and dear to my heart and to us as a brand. As you mentioned, we've been around for 100 years. You're hard pressed to find a Canadian who doesn't know who Canadian Tire is and one of the most critical things they'll tell you is how much we support our community.

00:03:07:00 - 00:03:28:12 Kim And it is, it's been part of the DNA of the organization. If you go right back to the founders. They created a dealer model, which with the notion that we would share the business with others. The dealer model was about helping others take advantage and grow their own businesses. So right into the roots of the organization you get that notion of sharing and helping others.

00:03:28:17 - 00:03:49:06 Kim And as you follow the company's journey throughout the hundred years, you'll see many times where they were there for any disaster, any community need. The creation of Jumpstart that you mentioned earlier, helping kids with financial need, get access to sport and play. We are there when Canadians need us, and our dealer community are so generous at a local level as well.

00:03:49:06 - 00:04:11:17 Kim They are part of every philanthropic or community event that happens, and it's just it's part of who we are. But the pandemic was a really interesting moment for us because the country needed more than just what we sell and just our work that we do in sport. The country needed us to show up in a different way. None of us had been through something like this and we did what we always do.

00:04:11:17 - 00:04:34:15 Kim We showed up with our Covid response fund, and we put money into the needed charities, but we put PPE into the hands of frontline health care workers, which is not something you would typically think of as an action Canadian Tire would do. But it's what people needed from us. And that really spawned that internal look at ourselves to say, Hey, our role here is so much bigger in this country than just what we sell.

00:04:34:17 - 00:04:57:13 Kim And it is bigger than just helping kids get into sport. So critical that that action, but we also can do and should do more and that really spawned us looking inward at our brand purpose and revising it is what I would say. It's not a new action, it's a modernization of it and bringing forward. So we live by the mantra that we are here to make life in Canada better.

00:04:57:16 - 00:05:16:18 Kim That's our role. That's what we're here to do. And ESG, so our environmental actions, our social actions, and even how we govern ourselves is proof to that. It's the trust that you can put in us because we treat the planet and the people in our communities with the utmost respect. We do more for them and we give more than we take.

00:05:16:18 - 00:05:48:02 Kim And that's really where this all started for us. 

Alison That's such a great combination of, the core to the business for 100 years and as the world around you, as Canadians around you are changing and evolving, you're staying true to your core principles and values, but doing it in a way that will resonate with today's consumers and tomorrow's. So your evolved vision is to be applauded and your deep commitment to ESG is absolutely something that I am thrilled to have your company leading.

00:05:48:04 - 00:06:09:21 Kim Amazing. Thank you. 

Alison You certainly have a lot of well-deserved press around your decision to dedicate half of your sponsorship dollars towards women in sport. The act of actually doing it and making that commitment by a brand of your magnitude and profile within Canada is a first. And I have to say, as a woman who has personally benefited from sport in my life, I absolutely applaud the initiative.

00:06:09:23 - 00:06:28:04 Alison I'd really love you to tell us what led to that decision and what made now the right time to make the commitment. 

Kim Yeah, it's an amazing thing that we do. Sport, as you know, as we mentioned off the top, is so foundational to us at Canadian Tire. We just believe in its power to impact children, to impact families, to impact lives at any age.

00:06:28:06 - 00:06:55:05 Kim And we first started having a conversation around sport back in 2018 when the women started coming back from the Olympics with lots and lots of gold medals. And we knew then that women in this country were poised for something really great. It wasn't something we really dove too deep into, partially because the infrastructure wasn't there. There wasn't really a place for women to go post-Olympics.

00:06:55:05 - 00:07:15:02 Kim For many sports, that is sort of the pinnacle. Or you end up going outside of your own borders of your country to play the sport you love. And for various reasons, both the infrastructure not being there, our organization being focused on a few things, we kind of let it sit there and bubble as we knew it was something we wanted to dig into, and we knew that the time had to be right.

00:07:15:04 - 00:07:44:17 Kim And then we sort of started to watch what was happening. And then some really impactful research came out of Canadian women in sport around the marketplace for women's professional sport, the business opportunity and really driving the case. And we kind of said to ourselves, now's the time. We can take a leadership position here. We can try and take all that great research and great experience that we're seeing out there and put our weight of our brand behind it and create that impactful change that we want to see.

00:07:44:19 - 00:08:09:00 Kim And so that time came to us because the infrastructure was starting to be built with the women's PWHL league starting to take shape, with Diana Matheson's Project 8 and her desire to create a domestic soccer league here starting to take shape, the WNBA bringing their first exhibition game here to Canada and it blowing the roof off Scotiabank Arena with people wanting to see more.

00:08:09:02 - 00:08:20:16 Kim So we knew there was momentum and we knew that we had a brand that could take a leadership role and help drive that further.

00:08:20:18 - 00:08:28:07 Alison And what's the response been like from your employees, your store owners, and you consumers? 

Kim I think it's been even more than we could have imagined. We knew this would be a big moment. We did not expect it to be this big.

00:08:28:09 - 00:08:55:04 Kim Our employees could not be prouder of the actions we've taken. We hear it daily from them. We have had incredible response from female athletes, from other brands calling us, calling our other senior leaders to say, great, courageous job. We can't believe you took the leadership to do that. There's nothing greater than your C-suite getting a call from someone else's C-suite saying, great job.

00:08:55:06 - 00:09:21:20 Kim The industry has taken note of it. And I think what's most important is I see the consumers and the fans showing up to those events. You just have to try and get a ticket to a PWHL game in Toronto to know that there's something real here. There's something magical, and I'm thrilled to be able to be on the sidelines of what's going to happen with Project 8, what potentially could happen in basketball and any other sports that might come to life through this.

00:09:21:21 - 00:09:46:05 Kim So we are not the only brand in this game anymore. And that's the most exciting part, is that we were able to, yes, for us take a leadership position, but hopefully help spark some change that helps move others on to that side of the field. 

Alison In Canada and globally, there's been a bit of a misperception that women's sporting events can't attract the same sort of audience and revenue and viewership as male sports.

00:09:46:05 - 00:10:12:20 Alison So I love the fact that you played a pivotal role in myth-busting and helping Canadians, and even globally, to build up appreciation that absolutely a great athlete is a great athlete and we are at least as compelling. So thank you. 

Kim My pleasure. Listen, as a woman who loved sport and as a mother of a daughter in sport, I just I think this is so needed and honestly, it's great sport to watch whatever gender they're on, the ice or the field,

00:10:12:20 - 00:10:35:22 Kim it's a great sport to watch. And it's really exciting for me that we've been able to make such a big movement on the gender front, and it encourages me with the other parts of our strategy around sport and equity, which is helping Bipoc communities, LGBTQ communities, communities, indigenous communities. How do we help make sure that sport in this country is equal and welcoming and inclusive?

00:10:36:00 - 00:11:03:07 Kim That's the goal and I hope we're here for many years to come doing doing this work. 

Alison Kim, with your really rich experience in driving these types of initiatives for it, what advice do you have for marketers who want to drive impactful ESG programs and don't have your personal experience and are probably earlier in the journey than you? 

Kim Yeah, I think I think there's a few things I'd say to someone who was looking at this space and excited by it, which is - Dig in, learn.

00:11:03:09 - 00:11:36:09 Kim There's a ton of great information out there, literature, research, examples of brands who've taken advantage of the moment. So get out there and see who's done this and learn from it. A great resource that I love to share with people and really a foundational key to how we've built our ESG strategy is the Porter and Kramer Shared Value principle. Porter and Kramer are a couple of Harvard professors who a few years ago created the Shared Value Initiative, which is really the notion that you can have societal benefit and profit together.

00:11:36:09 - 00:11:58:08 Kim And as a corporation, it's not just an opportunity, it's actually your obligation. It's a bit of a challenge on capitalism and its traditional state. So we really are embedded that into our thinking. And I would challenge people to go out there, learn about it, think about it, how they can bring that to life. I'd like to talk about this work is, it's actions before adds You have to have meaningful action.

00:11:58:08 - 00:12:23:06 Kim You need meaningful, positive change for the stakeholders you're engaging with. And from that comes the best, richest storytelling you'll ever get. When you start with - How do I get the ad or the TV campaign or the marketing award for it? I think you lose a little bit of that richness and potential depth when you start with - How can I make a meaningful impact on the planet, on the people who are on this planet?

00:12:23:08 - 00:12:50:14 Kim If I think about the impact I can have, the stories will start to tell itself. And in fact, all of those stakeholders will help you tell that story of your journey. So I think that's a big thing, I'd say. The other part is just put your elbows up and get to the table. Ask your organization because you will find out that they are advocates for much of this work, whether it's protecting the environment or helping communities drive equality or being there for social change.

00:12:50:14 - 00:13:08:21 Kim Your employee base, your leadership, they all have personal views to this and I think you can harness a lot of power in looking at your employee base. 

Alison That's great advice. Kim. I love your mantra, actions before ads. I'd love to hear if you could you give us an example of one of the stories that emerged from some of the actions that you took?

00:13:09:02 - 00:13:32:06 Kim Absolutely. Something that I might share with this group of listeners that I think could be very valuable would be how we have thought about diversity, equity and inclusion. In 2020, when George Floyd was murdered, all brands thought about how they could participate in a social conversation that was much needed. And we really chose the action of we need to think about this internally first.

00:13:32:09 - 00:13:52:21 Kim We need to think about - look inside ourselves and figure out what we need to fix about ourselves and take care of our employees. And from there we will then have an opportunity to talk about it later as a brand. And frankly, we sort of said you probably won't see an ad from us talking about our our diversity and inclusion strategies any time soon.

00:13:53:00 - 00:14:17:12 Kim What you're going to see us do is make conscious decisions about the products that are on our shelves or not on our shelves. Make conscious decisions about the spaces that we put into our regular advertising or into our marketing initiatives. You're going to see us talk to our employees in a different way. So we've taken the tone of - we could have put an ad campaign out there, but we've chosen to actually drive meaningful impact with our current stakeholders.

00:14:17:17 - 00:14:43:17 Kim And that in and of itself is how we come to market. 

Alison So the CMA is part of annual most influential brands each year and earlier in the year we unveiled the 2023 most influential brands. One of the key insights that came out of this year's study was the really important role that partnerships and sponsorships can have in a brand's ability to influence consumers and clients in particular.

00:14:43:19 - 00:15:16:09 Alison I know that you got a lot of great relationships and partnerships and sponsorships, so I'd love to understand your approach to selecting the right partnerships and sponsors. 

Kim Yeah, and I've had a long time in partnerships and sponsorship, and so I am a big believer in what that medium can do. To your point, from influencing change and driving opportunity for your business and your brand, but also in creating the stories that are so rich for an integrated marketing team to be able to play with. What goes into our strategy is, is a combination of things.

00:15:16:10 - 00:15:40:22 Kim It's about who the partner is and what they do. That's where we generally start. What's the impact they are having, what is the impact that they can have on the community with your support? And that community can be anything from a sort of more philanthropic social issue, straight up to, you know, professional sports and having an impact on inspiring kids and adults alike.

00:15:41:00 - 00:16:00:07 Kim So it's not necessarily about a social or a traditional ESG partnership. It could be any kind of partnership. But what are the values of that organization? What do they offer? What can you build together? And then how do you make sure that you are creating something that gives more than you take back? That's some of the things that we look at.

00:16:00:09 - 00:16:26:02 Alison That's very helpful. Thank you. So marketing budgets, certainly by extension sponsorships, and ESG initiatives, can often be the first to face cuts during tough economic times. I'm curious about how you maintain your commitment to those areas when you're faced with financial constraints, in particular, how do you continue to drive and advance your company's purpose during periods of budget pressures, which could include everything up to staff layoffs?

00:16:26:02 - 00:16:53:23 Kim Yeah, it's a great question because obviously when economies are in a tough state and businesses are looking at cost cutting with with regards to the current situation, it's an easy place to think about sponsorship and partnerships to go. What I would say is your values don't change because the economy's in a tough spot. So if you've entered into that partnership based on mutual values and mutual opportunity to impact the country, that's not going to change.

00:16:54:05 - 00:17:19:12 Kim How you bring it to life may change, how you operationalize it for that year may slightly adjust, but the value of being together as a partner won't. And so I think it's about choosing wisely when you go into that relationship. Good economy, bad economy. It's about thinking about why are we in this together and what are we achieving so that you know that when tough times hit, you still want to be in that relationship together.

00:17:19:14 - 00:17:38:19 Alison That's super helpful, Kim, and I love your call out that when times are tough, they're not just tough for our businesses and our brands. They're tough for the people that your sponsorships and your initiatives are helping serve, too. So it's in many ways the worst time to be walking away from a support when it can be also the time that's most needed.

00:17:38:21 - 00:17:59:00 Kim Yeah, absolutely. I think it is a time to double down and it's hard to do, absolutely, when you're faced with those pressures of the business reality, especially if you're a publicly traded company. There's just a business reality to it. But that's really the time to almost double down, particularly if they are things that impacts your employee base or whether they impact communities that are marginalized communities.

00:17:59:00 - 00:18:20:16 Kim That's where they need us the most. So, maybe you rethink that relationship, but I don't know that you always walk from that. 

Alison So Kim, you have shared so many incredibly valuable insights with us today. Before I let you go off to your busy day though, I would love to take the opportunity to have you share one piece of advice for marketers. 

00:18:20:16 - 00:18:47:01 Kim One piece of advice. If you are going to enter into the ESG realm, I would say roll your sleeves up, lean in to the table, get your elbows up. It's not always an easy fight. You are definitely asking for things that are sometimes ten and 15 years down the line when they return on that investment. You're asking for things that seem sometimes to be counterintuitive to the day to day running of the business.

00:18:47:03 - 00:19:07:05 Kim But if you believe in it and you know it's got that impact, roll your sleeves up, get your elbows up, get to the table and ask and know that it's a long time journey, but it's based on the right thing. 

Alison I love that advice and I'm going to actually squeeze in one more question coming off of your advice. What attracted you to this particular part of building brands in marketing?

00:19:07:05 - 00:19:27:14 Kim What attracted me to this type of work was the opportunity to have an impact. Real meaningful impact, and being able to tie products and a strong business to a strong community and a strong country. To me, that is the ultimate opportunity here, is we can grow our business and we can do some good in the world.

00:19:27:14 - 00:19:53:13 Kim And I think that that for me is that is what's the most attractive about it. I don't have to pick, you know, whether we can make some money or I can have a good job with doing something for others in need. I get to be able to do both. And I think as brands, what an amazing opportunity for us to change the shape of this country, to change the way our planet is, is situated right now, to be able to do that and still grow a healthy business.

00:19:53:15 - 00:20:28:12 Alison I am so glad I snuck in. One last question. Thank you for indulging me. I love the way you answered that and how you're demonstrating the critical role the marketing profession plays in both building business and building our country. So Kim, it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much and continued success. 

Kim Thank you. I appreciate you having me here and championing this work and this way of thinking where I think it's an amazing opportunity for all marketers to get behind it.

00:20:28:14 - 00:20:41:03 Unknown Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Jay Badiani, Chief Marketing Officer at IBM Canada. They'll explore the shifting B2B landscape, from new trends to cybersecurity challenges, and discuss IBM's mission to lead in business AI solutions, particularly within the Canadian context.

00:00:02:10 - 00:00:45:15

Welcome to Cinema Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMS CEO Allison Simpson.

Alison Simpson

In today's ever evolving B2B marketing landscape, we're witnessing a transformative shift in both strategies and priorities. So as Canadian businesses are seeking to stay competitive and relevant through an incredible tsunami of change, it's absolutely imperative that marketers embrace new technologies, really bring a learning mindset to what they're doing, and take advantage of all the tools that are available to them today.

00:00:45:17 - 00:01:06:11

Alison Simpson

So to guide us through this very exciting time, I'm absolutely thrilled to have Jay Baghdadi, the chief marketing officer of IBM Canada, joining us today. With Jay's wealth of experience leading a client centric and agile team across the full marketing mix, he's uniquely qualified to offer a great vantage point into the insights that are shaping the needs of B2B companies across diverse industries.

00:01:06:12 - 00:01:26:14

Alison Simpson

So welcome, Jay. Thank you very much for having me, Allison. So let's kick things off with the diversity of clients and industries that IBM partners with. You have a really broad perspective, broader than most. So now that you were in the first quarter 2020 for AJ, what B-to-B trends are you seeing yourself from your role and also among your clients?

00:01:26:16 - 00:02:13:19

Jay Badiani

Yeah, that's a really great question, and especially because we've seen really strong economy in the last few years being slowed down a little bit. So there are some shifting trends where we see clients coming to us talking about growth and where they're going to find new clients and how they're going to retain clients. It's very important giving the slowdown in the economy that some are projecting and as well, we're seeing clients talk to us about their bottom line and always looking for help on managing cost and even more so looking at productivity and how they can help their employees work on the right things, work smarter and do a better job again, serving clients.

00:02:13:21 - 00:02:39:22

Jay Badiani

So those are two real trends we're seeing in industry today, is ever more focus on the top line and a continuing focus on cost management and the bottom line.

Alison Simpson

I know all of those will absolutely be resonating with our listeners. So without giving away anything confidential, can you share some of the recommendations? Are ways that you're advising or helping support your clients, answering those important questions?

00:02:40:00 - 00:03:07:20

Jay Badiani

Yes, absolutely. So I'll start where IBM comes from, the position that we want to be the number one provider of artificial intelligence services for business. AI for businesses is what we call it. It's actually a marketing campaign and it very much addresses what those concerns are and the challenges that we see clients having. We come at this from the context of how can IBM help?

00:03:07:21 - 00:03:48:11

Jay Badiani

There's been a, you know, a giant amount of conversation around A.I., and we come at this from a point of view. A we can be a trusted AI provider for our clients. And, you know, just talking about the top line and where where clients can scale and find new clients as well as how they can be productive. We have a platform we've introduced called Watson X and Watson has different elements of the platform that provide clients with the ability to look at their customer base, understand better where the clients are and what they might be seeking.

00:03:48:13 - 00:04:19:18

Jay Badiani

There's actually an assistant. It's an app that's built on Watson X called Watson X Assistant, and we have many clients using that to serve their clients better. And then we've also got another app on the Watson next platform called Watson Next Orchestrate. And that's one that's the generative AI digital app where our clients can go in and understand their course better and feed in a corpus of data feed in as big a model as they have or as much information they have to help their employees be more productive.

00:04:19:19 - 00:04:36:20

Jay Badiani

Like you said, not trying to share anything confidential, but this is an app I really like to share when I'm just meeting with people. An example of this Watson orchestrator app is something i have on my phone called Ask h.R. And no matter where I am, no matter what time of day it is, i can go to that app and all of our h.r.

00:04:36:20 - 00:04:55:05

Jay Badiani

Policies are in there. It's connected into our actual h.r. system of record, and i can connect any h.r. Transaction day and night, whether it's publishing a salary letter, whether it's for someone who's looking for i have an employee is looking for a mortgage, and they need a salary letter. You know, I can get that out to them any time of day or night.

00:04:55:06 - 00:05:19:03

Jay Badiani

If I have an employee to changing departments, I can, you know, move them from one department to another. If I have an employee who's looking for information about taking a leave of absence or if I need to even process a leave of absence of someone, you're not going to be at work for a period of time. I can do that all from a simple app, just literally typing in a natural language, English language, and on the transactions will actually happen.

00:05:19:03 - 00:05:41:22

Jay Badiani

So that's just an example of digital labor in a way that, you know, IBM, we're doing this internally for ourselves and we're actually marketing it to clients as well to help them be more productive.

Alison Simpson

That's a great example. And you're absolutely right. They’re not just marketers all business people are looking at how do I understand Gen AI, and how can I leverage to help it make me more efficient and make my teams more scalable and more productive?

00:05:42:00 - 00:06:03:04

Alison SImpson

I love the example that you used on the H.R. side. Do you have some other examples, IBM or for some of your clients on what needs they're trying to help solve with Gen AI? I think it it's instructional for listeners to really see how other businesses and marketers are, what problems they're trying to solve with gen AI.

Jay Badiani

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:06:03:04 - 00:06:38:10

Jay Badiani

So the priority areas for clients, you know, we've talked a little bit about the top line and you know how it's harder to grow the top line in a market that's slowing down a little bit. But they also come to us with their priorities around ESG and particularly sustainability, regardless of what sort of what's happening in the market around revenue and costs, they've made commitments to shareholders around achieving certain sustainability goals, whether it's a reduction in carbon emissions, whether they've made net zero goals, whether it's, you know, business model transformation.

00:06:38:12 - 00:07:04:01

Jay Badiani

And we absolutely you know, I talk about AI for business. We absolutely have AI embedded in our sustainability software as well. So two really good examples of that is new software company IBM acquired, called Envisi helps you see your entire carbon footprint across your organization. You know, when we implemented in a certain way for them, it helps them manage it, right?

00:07:04:01 - 00:07:22:12

Jay Badiani

So you can be a utility or an energy company or you can be a bank, you know, a lot of different kinds of institutions have different sustainability goals they're trying to achieve. And in this is fabulous software that lets them see the entire their entire footprint and you know, what's what they could change that might make a difference.

00:07:22:14 - 00:07:51:10

Jay Badiani

Another element of sustainability, we always say, is sustainability isn't separate from profitability actually being a sustainable organization helps you be more profitable as well. And we have artificial intelligence based app called Maximo, and Maximo is around asset management. So when you're infrastructure heavy company, again, you have a lot of real estate, you might have a lot of vehicles.

00:07:51:15 - 00:08:24:23

Jay Badiani

Maximo Helps you predict the maintenance required on those assets, helps you understand exactly where all the assets are, you know, where they are in their life cycles and helps you then manage how much maintenance is needed or schedule maintenance. And you know, a lot of our infrastructure heavy clients look at that as very helpful to them to know that we can maintain machines better, make sure that they're not breaking down, make sure that they're not using excessive energy and making sure we're optimizing the assets that we have.

00:08:25:01 - 00:08:54:15

Jay Badiani

It's another way for organizations to be more sustainable and another area where, you know, again, clients, regardless of what's going on in the economic marketplace, is cybersecurity. So we have a lot of clients coming to us with cybersecurity challenges. Cybersecurity has never been more important than it is today. And some of our surveys that we do show that the cost of a data breach has been never been higher to remediate these costs, even in Canada.

00:08:54:18 - 00:09:15:17

Jay Badiani

And I'm not even talking about the cost to the brand and the cost of the value of a brand. I'm just talking about the actual cost to get in and figure out where the data breach occurred and seal it up and prevent it from happening. And also in in some cases, companies have to pay ransoms, right, Ransoms to get out of a data breach.

00:09:15:20 - 00:09:46:15

Jay Badiani

So our security software again uses AI to monitor the entire threat landscape. The software is called Q radar and Q Radar has air inside, and it can do the work of many, many air analysts. So, you know, just almost impossible for a human or even a team of people to track the literally tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of threats that are coming into organizations in a day, into large organizations or into governments.

00:09:46:17 - 00:10:12:17

Jay Badiani

So curator software has AI to help organizations do that. Those are just two areas. In addition to, you know, we talked about revenue management, cost management, but sustainability and security as well, where where I can definitely help.

Alison Simpson

Those are two very important areas. And I like to call out that sustainability and profitability aren't separate. In fact, sustainability can positively impact profitability.

00:10:12:17 - 00:10:54:14

Alison Simpson

And when companies and individuals are under revenue pressure, remembering that and knowing that sustainability can actually be a driver or not a roadblock is super important. On the cybersecurity front, I've certainly seen an elevation of sophistication in the attacks. Are you seeing that? And you're also seeing the volume of a tax increase?

Jay Badiani

Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt. We do surveys chief information security officers every year and on top of that, our security software gathers this data and it tells us that the volume is I know exponential is an exaggeration, but it is massively increasing.

00:10:54:18 - 00:11:21:03

Jay Badiani

And the capabilities that cyber actors have are also increasing. They use A.I. as well. So, yeah, there's absolutely no doubt that you need to keep up with threats. You really need to use the latest technology to combat the latest threats, because you're exactly right with your question. The threats are increasing and the bad guys are getting more and more capabilities.

00:11:21:05 - 00:11:43:06

Alison Simpson

So now you are part of an organization, a very global business. So I'm very curious to hear what differences you see for B2B marketing and customers in Canada compared to the U.S. and other IBM markets.

Jay Badiani

IBM is in a really unique position because we have a while, we're a very large global organization. We're very large footprint in Canada.

00:11:43:08 - 00:12:02:07

Jay Badiani

So, you know, I don't know whether the there is a company like IBM because we do see that a lot of organizations that are in the business that we're in, in the technology business, they might be global and others have heard of them for sure, but they don't necessarily have the same footprint of people that we would have.

00:12:02:13 - 00:12:29:00

Jay Badiani

So IBM is a different organizations. We're not just a tech company. We're a consulting company around tech. And so when we do our marketing, you know, my group is very focused on specifically Canada. We're very specifically focused on what we call field marketing and field communications here. And so we're always looking at ways to have a unique client experience in Canada for our clients.

00:12:29:06 - 00:12:48:02

Jay Badiani

And that's sort of I feel like it's sort of unique. You know, we're not relying on lots of TV ads, for example, we're not relying on a lot of, you know, Internet marketing, for example. We do have this sort of really large concentration here of trying to be with clients in the field. And social media is a big part of that.

00:12:48:02 - 00:13:07:20

Jay Badiani

So when I say, you know, field marketing, field communications, social media is really a big part of that for us.

Alison Simpson

And Jay when you're talking to your global peers and your American peers about the business customers that you're working with in Canada, are you seeing any differences in who those customers are or what they're looking for compared to the other markets?

00:13:08:02 - 00:13:31:19

Jay Badiani

There's you know, Canada is interesting in that we have some very large banks in Canada where other countries might have more banks, but maybe not the same concentration. And so there's definitely a difference here where we spend a lot of time on, I'll call it financial services. And so not just banks, but insurance companies too, is a big concentration for us on financial services.

00:13:31:21 - 00:13:55:04

Jay Badiani

And as you know, Canada, a large federal government big vendor in the market on for technology as well as the ten provinces and the three territory. So we have a focus on government and our public sector. And you know, those are two major sectors for us. They would be important in any really developed economy. I think in Canada there's probably a bit more concentration on fast services and on government.

00:13:55:04 - 00:14:17:11

Jay Badiani

And then of course, you know, Canada, we're very successful in many other industries, but I think that you would see in other countries there might be a bit more around any fracturing or a bit more variety around some of the industries like tech or retailing that they would market to. So we definitely have those in Canada we all know who are grocery retailers are.

00:14:17:11 - 00:14:37:20

Jay Badiani

We know some of our vape shops are, but I think in other countries there's maybe a bit more local diversity of those though. You know, off the top, when I was talking about retail, I was talking about where do companies find more customers? And we actually did a survey that was just published last week on our earlier in the year on retail.

00:14:37:20 - 00:14:56:00

Jay Badiani

And we see that a lot of customers online aren't that happy with their bindery. They're actually, you know, our survey said less than 50% were satisfied with their online buyer journey, but 80% said they would be happy to have an air assistant guide them and so, you know what, we're and this was a global survey. This just was in Canada.

00:14:56:03 - 00:15:21:17

Jay Badiani

But I think that would apply here, right, where you go to certain websites and they're fabulous and you're getting awesome recommendations. And it's so easy to buy and you go to other ones and you're like, I can't find what I want. Or, you know, it's a little bit tricky finding that's a little bit tricky with, you know, all of the delivery information is a little tricky with, you know, getting stuff to your door, you know, not satisfied with getting help when you need help, getting help with returns, or do you need help with return.

00:15:21:19 - 00:15:56:09

Jay Badiani

And so we see there's a big opportunity there. And absolutely, we see, you know, retailers, regardless where they are looking for a guy to better serve their customers and, you know, in Canada and around the world.

Alison Simpson

So building on that, have you observed many regional differences in your Canadian marketing?

Jay Badiani

You know, there's not that many differences, but one reason thing that, you know, cause us to look at our marketing strategies is the new law in Quebec and just making sure it's been an opportunity for us to take a step back and look at our campaigns that we run in Quebec.

00:15:56:11 - 00:16:16:02

Jay Badiani

And I think I don't know if other organizations are like us, but we do, you know, maybe there was a sense that we were taking campaigns and just sort of translating them into French, and this has caused us to just take a step back and beyond taking an English campaign and translating it to French, really try and understand is it right for the Quebec market.

00:16:16:04 - 00:16:38:19

Jay Badiani

So, you know, it's still it's still new law. It's still something that we're we're working through to make sure we're, you know, complying with French language laws. But also we want to make sure because that market can be different in certain aspects. Are we you know, or is everything contextually right for the Quebec market, not just having, you know, campaigns land there in French?

00:16:38:21 - 00:16:58:20

Alison Simpson

And then, Jay, earlier, you talked about air certainly playing a pivotal role in enabling IBM's business. You're creating a lot of great solutions for your clients to enable them to do more as well. And all of our listeners are certainly looking at general AI and new tools as a way to improve and get better at what they're doing.

00:16:58:22 - 00:17:41:03

Alison Simpson

Can you share an exemple or to of what you've seen organizations do beyond IBM to use AI to help achieve their goals?

Jay Badiani

I can talk about a few industry examples, but one overarching thing that I really would like to say is IBM's large language models. If you use them, you're indemnified from IP risks and I think that's something that companies see is really interesting because when you just go to, you know, an Internet app, you never really know where the information coming from that this AI is based upon and where are the answers coming from, and are you really using a model that's free of intellectual property risk?

00:17:41:03 - 00:18:04:14

Jay Badiani

And you've we've seen a lot of that in the news. So so that's one thing that we're we're really proud about, is we can indemnify customers that use our models because we know what the models were trained on. I talked a little bit about energy and you remarked about sustainability and profitability go hand in hand. And we absolutely this is a this is just still a big growth industry in the world around the economy.

00:18:04:14 - 00:18:28:15

Unknown

And what's going to how do we move from a carbon economy to a more sustainable economy? And there's absolutely more that will happen around putting the information that that sort of spread around the world in many different peoples, you know, that they have into a place where we can make the right decisions. One thing that IBM's done is worked with NASA geospatial models, and we've made these available as open source models.

00:18:28:19 - 00:19:07:23

Jay Badiani

So anyone is working with Watson and can work with our NASA geospatial models. And what that help people do is marry weather data with satellite data of parts of the world and really help them understand what's happening with the climate there, what can be done to improve the climate there, what changes are happening over time, whether it's industrialization, agriculture, deforestation, you know, is this just gigantic amounts of not just text data, but images and other kinds of geospatial data are being put together.

00:19:08:00 - 00:19:30:20

Jay Badiani

I by our customers and using our models. The last thing I'd say is, is security. It was a great, you know, question you had earlier where I was talking about security and it's never ending like that. That struggle is never ending. We're continually working with them around how can we keep up with the bad guys? How can we make sure that again, brands are protected?

00:19:30:22 - 00:19:53:06

Jay Badiani

You when you come into a store or you come into someone's website, you know your data is safe and that just goes across all industries, governments to we've seen we've seen where health care institutions have been taken down in Canada because of cybercrime. And we've seen, you know, other organizations around the world, you know, have major consequences because of cyber crime.

00:19:53:06 - 00:20:25:10

Jay Badiani

So this is it's a never ending one for everyone that we work with. But we know we know A.I. will help us if you don't have A.I. working for you, the bad guys do. And you know, we won't be able to keep up with them.

Alison Simpson

So Jay  you've certainly given us lots to think about in your comment around the bad guys have access to Jenn-Air too, so it's so important for all of us to stay on top of and ahead of where the bad guys are so that we can continue to protect our brands and have the trusting relationships that we need with our customers and all our stakeholders.

00:20:25:12 - 00:20:46:01

Alison Simpson

So to close off our conversation, I'd love to benefit from the fact that you have this incredible, very robust marketing career and have you share one piece of advice for our listeners. What would you recommend marketers do to be successful and grow their careers in the months and years ahead?

Jay Badiani

First of all, Alison, such a great opportunity for me to speak to you today, so thank you very much for that opportunity.

00:20:46:03 - 00:21:14:11

Jay Badiani

I really enjoyed the conversation in terms of a piece of advice is nothing that we do is an individual effort. Everything is a is a team effort. And I really think it's important for people to collaborate with each other to know how one part of the organization fits into the work that they do and then how their outcomes affect what another part of the organization might do or even customers would see.

00:21:14:11 - 00:21:36:12

Jay Badiani

You know, there's marketing and then there's PR and external communications and it's all connected. So I think as much as people can see that the role they play isn't in isolation, it's all connected to something else. And eventually a customer will see that in the market or an employee or a government organization will see something from your company in the market.

00:21:36:12 - 00:21:56:19

Jay Badiani

Then it just helps you put into context just how important the work that we do is. And when we all collaborate as a team, the work will of course be better. So just just about team and collaboration and, you know, knowing how your organization works is so important.

Alison Simpson

I think that's great advice for all of us at all levels for sure.

00:21:56:21 - 00:22:23:09

Alison Simpson

I also want to thank you for the overall conversation. You have such a great experience and I really appreciate you making time in your busy schedule to join us today and share your wealth of experience around B2B marketing, Some of the regional and global differences you're seeing in Canada compared to elsewhere in the world. And the important focus that IBM has around Jenn-Air and some of the powerful tools and solutions that you're creating.

00:22:23:11 - 00:22:47:16

Jay Badiani

Thank you very much, Alison. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Alison Simpson

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA TCA and sign up for your free CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Anne Marie Wright, Partner and Co-Founder at YOUAREUNLTD, and Marc Cooper, CM, President at Junction59. In this lively conversation, they dive into the opportunities the aging population brings, the challenges they face and the organizations spearheading efforts to eradicate age discrimination in Canadian marketing.

00:00:23:03 - 00:00:47:18

Alison Simpson

CMAs latest research findings echo a concerning truth experience is undervalued within our industry, says we are striving for diversity, equity and inclusion. It is absolutely essential that we recognize that age should not be a barrier to hiring, to working with or promoting a deserving employee. Ageism is a significant issue in the marketing profession, and many believe it's tolerated more than other forms of discrimination.

00:00:48:14 - 00:01:09:15

Alison Simpson

The recent DEI survey that the CMA conducted revealed that on average, marketers consider employees over 48 years of age to be older workers. So not only is are ageism in our industry and profession, it also starts up what I would say is a relatively ignored age. So while many boomers are reporting that they feel disadvantaged because the marketing industry is so image conscious.

00:01:10:01 - 00:01:37:00

Alison Simpson

All of this highlights the biases that can hinder the growth of experienced talent. Joining me today, I am very happy to have two exceptional minds who are actively reshaping this narrative. Anne Marie Wright is co-founder of Duo Unlimited and Marc Cooper is president of Junction 59. Anne Marie and Marc have come together to co-found the third State, a strategic partnership whose goal is to help leaders of businesses identify and harness the potential of aging and the new longevity economy.

00:01:37:16 - 00:02:03:01

Alison Simpson

So together, we're going to explore the pervasive impact of ageism and ages views within our marketing and communications community. We're going to dive into how marketers and communicators are in a truly unique position to help address and combat these problems for the benefit of the workforce. Organizations that engage these workforces and the consumers that we serve. So it's an absolute pleasure to welcome Anne Marie and Marc to join me on the podcast today.

00:02:03:06 - 00:02:03:19

Alison Simpson

Welcome.

00:02:04:06 - 00:02:14:14

Marc Cooper

Thank you very much for having us here today. It's really wonderful to be able to share these thoughts with the CMA and with the marketing community in general.

00:02:14:18 - 00:02:15:23

Anne Marie Wright

We're thrilled to be here.

00:02:16:13 - 00:02:29:06

Alison Simpson

Now I'm going to kick things off with our first question. And Anne Marie, why don't I have you start this one? Can you tell us more about what you mean by the longevity economy and why you see it as so critically important to our conversation today?

00:02:30:16 - 00:03:05:09

Anne Marie Wright

So the most important thing to know this stage is the world is rapidly aging and this is a global phenomenon. What we're referring to here is a demographic trend characterized by an increasing proportion of people over 50, driven by factors such as declining birthrates and increasing life expectancy. This phenomena, which is in fact one of the biggest global trends of our time, has significant social and economic impact.

00:03:05:18 - 00:03:37:17

Anne Marie Wright

And this has been studied by people like the W.H.O., hundreds of think tanks, institutions, global governments, and more. The impacts of global aging populations are both positive and negative. And because this is such a big conversation, what Mark and I want to focus on with you today is to talk about the positive and economic side of this story, economic side of this phenomena, what it means to marketers and communicators.

00:03:39:05 - 00:04:15:00

Anne Marie Wright

So in essence, we need to think about a very large and influential cohort of people, and it's a very misunderstood and very misrepresented audience, which we're going to talk about a little bit later on in this podcast. Fundamentally, this cohort is redefining, disrupting, accepted definitions of what it is to age, what old age means. The influence of this audience has given rise to something called the longevity economy.

00:04:15:00 - 00:05:03:23

Anne Marie Wright

And this terminology is framed by Joseph Coughlin at MIT H Lab. A Fundamentally, what this means is that's referring to an economic impact and potential of the growing and increasingly influential older populations that we're seeing on the global stage. It encourages all businesses and industry to recognize and respond to the diverse needs and preferences of aging populations. This economy, in fact, is so large that it's been referred to as the third largest economy in the world behind only the U.S. and China is $8 trillion and growing in the U.S. Unfortunately, we don't have any Canadian data on this.

00:05:04:07 - 00:05:34:02

Anne Marie Wright

And throughout the world, industry, governments, social institutions have been waking up to this new economy and our team has seen rapid growth and investment in this space over the last five years. For example, in the venture capital community, it's one of the largest segments of investment and in the last three years. So with the size of this market, one might be asking why is there not been more attention paid to the market?

00:05:34:12 - 00:06:15:05

Anne Marie Wright

And the answer is rather straightforward. The challenge is that ageism and ages views. The topic of our podcast has actually been in the way of progress here. And there's a difference we want to make between the topic of ageism and an age just views the challenges that ages and ages views have been in the way of progress. Ageism, as Alison identified earlier in the podcast, is a systematic and often deeply ingrained form of discrimination and prejudice that involves stereotyping against certain individuals or groups based on their age.

00:06:15:15 - 00:06:44:13

Anne Marie Wright

I want to be really clear here that ageism actually impacts many age groups, but the global research, the global study today is very much focused on aging populations simply because this is such a large, impactful cohort of people ages, views that are a manifestation of ageism in general, refer to a specific perspective or beliefs held by an individual or group that reflects ageism.

00:06:45:04 - 00:07:10:17

Anne Marie Wright

For example, if we hold a belief that older adults are not technically inept or older adults are set in their ways, these are fundamentally our just views that we hold. What's important here for today's conversation is that marketers and communicators we think can strongly lead a new narrative and movement to dismantle ageism and ages views.

00:07:11:18 - 00:07:51:05

Alison Simpson

But thanks to Maria, that's a great help. And you call a really important point. From my perspective, a lot of very important points from my perspective. But as marketers, not only do we have a responsibility and an opportunity to encourage diversity and the wisdom that comes with years of experience in how we hire, we also have a real opportunity to influence popular culture or by the marketing we do, and making sure that it's as inclusive as it should be and representative of the real world and the number of Canadians we have that absolutely have so much more to contribute, even though they might be in some people's definition older.

00:07:51:23 - 00:08:12:03

Alison Simpson

So I think there's two really unique, important opportunities there for sure. So certainly the CMA survey highlighted ageism industry as a real issue. Can you introduce some new thinking around ageist views and dive a little deeper into how these issues show up in our industry and as importantly, what we can do to start reframing our thinking?

00:08:14:00 - 00:08:43:04

Marc Cooper

You know, let's start with ageism in the workplace. Our industry is notorious for valuing younger versus older employees. And your CMA survey results actually reinforce this fact. I think there was a stat in there that 44% of marketers believe that age based discrimination is tolerated in their workplaces more than any other form of discrimination. So like all forms of discrimination, not only is ageism harmful to a workforce and a work environment, but it's actually bad for business.

00:08:43:18 - 00:09:09:05

Marc Cooper

There are hundreds of studies that show that a diverse and multigenerational workforce is more productive and produces better business results. This value can only be achieved by creating inclusive environments. Our industry has the capacity to reframe and change the narrative. Our community, we've always been trendsetters and we have a really great opportunity to sink our teeth into this and make some impactful societal change.

00:09:09:12 - 00:09:40:03

Anne Marie Wright

You know this great example from the Publicis group? They have been labeled or certified as an age friendly employer by the age friendly Institute out of the U.S. and they've taken a lot of really great steps to add age into their DEI policy. Publicis has in surveys there are they're very intentional about the experiences of their older workforces.

00:09:40:09 - 00:10:04:14

Anne Marie Wright

They survey them to understand how integration, mentorship programs needs can be incorporated to ensure that they're retaining and hiring in shock older workforces. And then just a number of mechanisms that they've been experimenting with to do so. So the Publicis Group is actually a great example in our industry of somebody who has embraced age.

00:10:04:20 - 00:10:26:05

Alison Simpson

Anne MarieI love that example because while ageism is rampant across marketing communications and the CMA research, we found that in agents sees the definition of what it was to be older was shockingly young, like your late thirties. So the fact that publicists are seeing this as an opportunity and a differentiator and Mark, to your point, it's really good business.

00:10:26:05 - 00:10:32:00

Alison Simpson

So they in many ways they have a competitive advantage by being among the first to identify this.

00:10:33:02 - 00:11:04:08

Marc Cooper

You know, they absolutely do. And, you know, when we look at ageism and ages views in the marketing communications work that we do, numerous studies show that audiences are vastly underrepresented in our advertising communications. While the 25 to 39 year old cohort is highly overrepresented. Equally, older adults are vastly misrepresented and misunderstood, oftentimes made to appear incompetent, especially when it comes to technology, or perhaps they're referred to as being set in their ways.

00:11:05:06 - 00:11:27:10

Marc Cooper

To quote a Forbes magazine article, The World of Old for Teasing is a hellscape full of reverse mortgages, erectile dysfunction pills and bathtub that will kill you. I think we would all agree that the world of stock photos is also filled with stereotypical images of older people doing yoga or running on a beach. Now there are new image banks that exist.

00:11:28:13 - 00:11:57:05

Marc Cooper

Even Getty is getting into the space by improving the images. We just have to source the right images that represent the audience that we know. There's an excellent report from WPP Australia. I think it's called Secrets and Lies. Google it, download it. It's great. It's got some really insightful information in there and it lays out who this new age in consumer is and is not, and their spending patterns, which is maybe the most important piece.

00:11:57:22 - 00:12:22:01

Marc Cooper

In fact, it even calls out that 79% have moved on from brands that are no longer fulfilling or meaningful. So that's a huge opportunity. If you get it wrong and an even bigger opportunity if you get it right. A recent piece in The Atlantic shares research to say that people feel 20% younger than their real age. So understanding this is really important to marketers.

00:12:22:06 - 00:12:28:19

Marc Cooper

We have to make sure that we're talking to people in the way that they see themselves, not in the way that the rest of us see them.

00:12:29:02 - 00:12:59:15

Anne Marie Wright

Outside of the communications side of things. The desire or need to focus on product service solution development for aging population is a real opportunity too, because lots of times we think about products, services, solutions in terms of, you know, moms who are 25 to 45. There's a world of opportunity to develop products, services, solutions. We're going to talk about a few examples of them in a few minutes.

00:12:59:21 - 00:13:27:20

Anne Marie Wright

For people over 50. The cosmetics industry, the beauty industry for a long, long period of time ignored this part. We can give you dozens of examples of how people like Vogue magazine and certain cosmetic brands are developing and focusing on not just communicating to women who are older, but developing new products, services, solutions for this audience in very meaningful ways.

00:13:28:15 - 00:13:52:00

Alison Simpson

You know, market every year, sharing some hugely compelling stats. So an $8 trillion industry in the US alone and the fact that 79% of that market will move on from brands that no longer they see as fulfilling, meaningful, irrelevant, what more convincing reasons do we need to give brands and the marketing community to embrace this incredible business opportunity?

00:13:52:20 - 00:14:05:12

Alison Simpson

It's a bit mind boggling to me that with the size of the audience and their spending potential and their loyalty to brands that actually recognize them, it should be some low hanging fruit for businesses.

00:14:05:21 - 00:14:36:10

Anne Marie Wright

100%. Alison in as our jobs as marketers are to meet our unmet needs to identify and service consumers at all phases and stages of life and the opportunity to open up new worlds, new audiences, innovation pathways for people who are aging. The opportunities are tremendous.

00:14:36:10 - 00:14:44:12

Alison Simpson

Anne Marie, I know you we've talked before and there's a whole industry around age tech, so there certainly are some venture capitalists that are starting to see the offer.

00:14:44:13 - 00:15:17:00

Anne Marie Wright

Yes, 100%. And I'll give a one of my favorite examples is for many years, women's health has been misrepresented as well. So we're starting to see a collision between aging, healthy aging and women's health. So I feel like menopause, for example, which has been misrepresented, misunderstood by marketers, by industry in general, is one of these explosive fields. Femtech for example, in general, especially related to aging, is explosive.

00:15:18:07 - 00:15:41:01

Alison Simpson

So great examples. It's always helpful for me and our listeners to have our topics and certainly true and brought to life by understanding how some brands and organizations are really starting to embrace it and succeeding. So I'd love it if the two of you could share some case studies or examples of what organizations are doing that are targeting consumer aging.

00:15:41:01 - 00:15:42:15

Alison Simpson

Consumers successfully.

00:15:43:06 - 00:16:05:08

Marc Cooper

Well, you know, the good news is that there are some that are doing a great job. So we're not starting from scratch here. One that comes to mind for me is the dove Pro page campaign. They actually first launched those products with a campaign featuring women over 50 showcasing real beauty. Breaking that industry standard of only showing young models.

00:16:05:19 - 00:16:33:14

Marc Cooper

So this is a really great flip on the typical beauty product targeting aging women with anti-aging products. Instead, they're obviously showing pro age products. And their tagline for this campaign is Beauty has no age Limit. So if you get a chance, I'd look up the Dove Pro campaign. And another great example is Saatchi Saatchi. I think it's called Keep on Rolling for Toyota Venza.

00:16:34:03 - 00:16:54:04

Marc Cooper

The campaign cleverly subverted expectations by showing older adults leading rich, active lives, contrasting with their children's assumptions that they were leading dull lives. In fact, I think those children were at home on their computers, living their life through social media instead of living their life in the real in the real world.

00:16:54:06 - 00:17:26:21

Anne Marie Wright

One that I like from the financial service industry is from Merrill Lynch. And they created something called the Seven Life Priorities Program. And what they did was understanding this aging population and understanding that 80% of their business came from people over 65. They started to think about money management in very different ways and supported not by just the conversation on how to manage your money.

00:17:26:21 - 00:18:04:17

Anne Marie Wright

It's how to manage your life until you're going to be over 100. And thought today's five year old is projected to lift the 100th. So what Merrill Lynch has done is said, how do you help? How do we help our clients plan for the 100 year life versus how do we help our clients plan for retirement? And so they're reframing how those what's often times called the third or fourth stage of life, how Merrill Lynch can service their clients in in more than just financial ways.

00:18:05:10 - 00:18:30:22

Anne Marie Wright

The other one that I think we all love is we all know Phil Knight and what he did for Nike and what he did for running. And he's a lifelong runner and he is now, I think, into his sixties and he wanted to create a running shoe that kept him moving, even though his body was aging, even though his body was changing.

00:18:31:05 - 00:18:57:12

Anne Marie Wright

It would be easy to say, I'm creating a running shoe for somebody who saw that, that that's all what he said is, I want to create a running shoe that keeps me moving. And so it was really the shoe was created to accommodate for issues of aging bodies, but it was positioned as something to keep me moving as opposed to something that I need to do because I can't run anymore.

00:18:57:15 - 00:19:01:22

Anne Marie Wright

It was a very positive spin on the proposition.

00:19:02:11 - 00:19:11:11

Alison Simpson

Those are great examples. Now, the media also has a really important role to play on the story. You're starting to see the media start to address this issue as well.

00:19:12:08 - 00:20:01:17

Anne Marie Wright

Yeah, one of the ones I love is with Chris Hemsworth, the big Marvel actor who in his late thirties was identified to have the biomarkers of Alzheimer's. And he embraced that to say and produce a documentary series called Limitless, which is really exploring how he can continue to live better longer. There's a documentary on Netflix which really looks at something called Blue Zones, and these are countries where people have lived longer, better, and the factors that are play into what a longer, healthier life looks like.

00:20:01:18 - 00:20:22:20

Anne Marie Wright

That is a series on Netflix today. I guess the last one that I really like too is I don't know if everyone's seen the new supermodel Syria, where they've taken the four supermodels. I think we all know who they are and and really told the story of their lives and how they're thriving into their fifties, how they're going to continue to thrive into their 60.

00:20:22:20 - 00:20:33:10

Anne Marie Wright

So it's been a very, very positive story on how the recreation and the disruption of aging is being taught today.

00:20:34:01 - 00:20:57:20

Alison Simpson

Those are great examples, and I think it's Forbes that have done it. 50 top women over 50 and just celebrating all of the success and continued ways that people of all ages are contributing. But instead of recognizing only at the young scale the thirties under thirties in the forties, under forties, to actually see 50 over 50, 60 to 60 over 60 like that feels like we're heading in the right direction for sure.

00:20:59:14 - 00:21:18:12

Alison Simpson

So there is no doubt from the insights and the data that both of you are shared with us that there is a tremendous opportunity by addressing aging in our community. So I want to make this super actionable for our listeners. What can marketers and communicators do to start to make a real difference today?

00:21:20:00 - 00:21:54:21

Anne Marie Wright

I think I want to separate Alison, how they can make a difference in their workplace, which I'm going to make a brief comment around and then Mark will talk about how in their work they can make a difference. We're very passionate about the subject of ageism because marketers in fact have the power to make change. It's a very unique form of discrimination because everyone, regardless of their race, age or gender, sexual orientation, will go through the process of aging.

00:21:55:15 - 00:22:29:10

Anne Marie Wright

It's the most universal and unavoidable aspect of the human experience. So if we acknowledge that ageism exists and we acknowledge that we're all going to face it at one stage or another. The more that we can understand and change that by simply creating awareness of it in our day to day and in our workplaces, the more we can eliminate this last form of discrimination, that means including age in DEI policies.

00:22:30:02 - 00:23:02:21

Anne Marie Wright

We don't have the numbers in Canada, but we know that over 80% of Global DEI policies do not include age. It's a really simple thing to do. Number two, look at retaining older workers in the workforce and learning about the benefits of multigenerational workforces. There's tons written about the benefits, the higher return on investment, the higher productivity levels of multigenerational workforces versus one dimensional workforce sources.

00:23:03:12 - 00:23:07:08

Anne Marie Wright

So those resist those with the things I think we can all focus on quite readily.

00:23:08:14 - 00:23:33:20

Marc Cooper

And of course, in the work that we actually do, we can expand our mindset around having multiple segments for our products and services or solutions. Ask ourselves how our brand can promote our brand proposition can be stretch to embrace new audiences. You know, this is what Dove did with their pro age campaign and with the products that they developed and we can understand who we're talking to.

00:23:34:04 - 00:24:11:21

Marc Cooper

I think knowing that 50 plus is not a single audience, you know, that's how we've traditionally grouped this demographic together. But 50 doesn't equal 60, which doesn't equal 70. And getting our heads around that and then speaking to those audiences appropriately is a good starting point. And then authentically represent older audiences in the communications, not based on those stereotypes and it's a great start if we build those multi-generational workforces as marketers and advertisers, because we then see these different perspectives from our colleagues.

00:24:12:02 - 00:24:25:10

Marc Cooper

So when we go to put them into the communications that we're building and we're putting out there, we're not playing to the stereotypes anymore. We're playing to the people we know. We're playing to the environment that we're working in. So I think they are actually quite closely tied together.

00:24:26:21 - 00:24:43:05

Alison Simpson

Really terrific advice. And you both have shared some really valuable insights tonight. So before I let you get on with your day, I'd love to close off the discussion by having each of you share one last piece of advice for our listeners and what they can do to help address the ageism issue. What's the first thing you would have them talk?

00:24:44:17 - 00:25:18:10

Anne Marie Wright

One thing is think stage, not age. When you remove the barriers of age, just view. Demographics mean less than her mindset and what people's needs are. A 70 year old can be just as vibrant as a 40 year old. And if we're building brands around true needs and true mindsets and true behaviors, I think we open a world to think differently about what our opportunities are.

00:25:19:09 - 00:25:33:22

Alison Simpson

I think that's such a great example. And I look at my own personal self, like in my twenties, I was in a lot, a lot worse shape than I am in my fifties. So ages very arbitrary in so many ways. Well, Mark, we'll let you close things off.

00:25:35:18 - 00:26:04:19

Marc Cooper

So I think you could ask us about our Ageless Universe initiative. It's something that third state recently launched and we really can't do what we were trying to do without the support from our industry. This is a multi-phased campaign with the goal of dismantling ageism in the workforce and in the work we do. So you can learn more at ageless University HCA and sign our pledge, which you can also just reach out to us, ask us questions.

00:26:05:10 - 00:26:32:09

Marc Cooper

The two of us are more than happy to talk about what this industry can do. We know that this industry has such a capacity to make change on this really important issue, perhaps one of the last areas of discrimination. And if we can try to beat this together as an industry, we're going to be in really great shape in the work that we're doing and in the way we do work going forward.

00:26:32:18 - 00:26:48:10

Alison Simpson

A great note to end on Marc and Ann Marie, thank you so much for all of the valuable insights that you share today and for helping bring more awareness to this really important issue in the marketing community. I'm very much looking forward to how we can advance this in the months and years ahead.

00:26:49:04 - 00:26:54:03

Anne Marie Wright

Thank you so much for having us. Alison, it's been a real pleasure.

00:26:57:07 - 00:27:11:20

Announcer

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA TCA and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

In the first episode of 2024, Alison Simpson, CEO of The CMA, welcomes Kerri Dawson, the Chair of the CMA's Board of Directors, to discuss her journey and the board's role while highlighting some of the CMA's recent achievements. Kerri previews The CMA's focus areas for the year, including continuing to future-proof the profession, advocacy, DEI and community building.

00:00:02:10 - 00:00:24:04

Announcer

Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMAs CEO Allison Simpson.

00:00:24:04 - 00:00:45:23

Alison Simpson

Happy New Year and welcome to our very first episode of CMA Connect for 2024. I hope everyone had an amazing holiday. We have a very exciting and busy year ahead of the CMA and I'm absolutely thrilled to have Kerri Dawson, the chair of CMA's Board of Directors, join us today to discuss the association. Kerri has been very active with the CMA for many years and a member of our board since 2018.

00:00:46:14 - 00:01:10:19

Alison Simpson

Before she stepped into the chair role in 2022, Kerri served as the vice chair and she's also chaired our finance and Audit Human Resources and Nomination and governance committees. Kerri is also the head of digital channels and commercialization for wealth and personal baking at HSBC Bank, Canada, and very much on the forefront of digital marketing, and that Kerri's team was recently awarded to global retail, banking, Digital and Innovation awards.

00:01:11:04 - 00:01:13:12

Alison Simpson

So welcome, Kerri, It's a thrill to have you here today.

00:01:13:14 - 00:01:24:18

Kerri Dawson

Well, thank you, Alison, and happy New Year to you as well. And thank you for inviting me. I'm really thrilled to be here and to be the first conversation of 2024 for CMA Connect. Thank you.

00:01:25:15 - 00:01:32:08

Alison Simpson

I can't imagine a better way to kick off the year, so thank you too. Now, I want to start by asking what attracted you to join the CMA board?

00:01:33:00 - 00:01:55:03

Kerri Dawson

So, Alison, as you mentioned, I joined the CMA Board in December of 2018, and it was Steve Mast who at the time he was the chair of the Nominating and Governance Committee, and he'd come to see me to ask if I might be interested in joining the board. Now, Steve later became board chair, of course, and I was really fortunate to work with him as his vice chair.

00:01:55:07 - 00:02:24:21

Kerri Dawson

Prior to becoming chair myself at the time when I joined the board, I'd been involved with the CMA for many years. I'd been a CMA awards judge and a senior judge. I'd set on what was at the time called the Digital Marketing Council, now known as the MarTech Council. I'd participated in strategy, research and the like, and in my career I'd been mentored by a past CMA board chair and a CMA Lifetime Achievement Award winner.

00:02:25:04 - 00:02:51:19

Kerri Dawson

Her name is Nancy Cardinal, a name some listeners might recognize. So I was very familiar with the CMA and had a strong connection to the work that the CMA does, and I believed that it would be an exciting challenge to advise and guide the CMA's vision and strategies as it works on behalf of the marketing community and to do that as a board director, and that this would be a way for me to contribute to that community.

00:02:51:19 - 00:02:55:14

Kerri Dawson

And that's certainly been true. And it's been it's been very rewarding.

00:02:57:08 - 00:03:12:15

Alison Simpson

Well, I definitely owe both Steve and Nancy a great big thank you for getting you involved. And you've been such an outstanding partner to me, certainly, as I've onboarded to the CMA in the way that you're advocating on behalf of our profession is commendable and very much appreciated.

00:03:12:16 - 00:03:13:04

Kerri Dawson

Thank you.

00:03:14:12 - 00:03:18:00

Alison Simpson

So I'd love you to share a bit about how the board and the CMA staff work together.

00:03:18:17 - 00:03:56:08

Kerri Dawson

Yeah. So generally speaking, the role of the board is to provide strategic advice and guidance and to establish governance and to exercise oversight for the management of a company or an organization. And as chair of the CMA, I help to ensure that this distinction between what the board does vis a vis what CMA management does is clear. So you'll sometimes hear that guidance to board directors described as noses in and fingers out, leaving the management to do its job and to operate the business or the organization.

00:03:56:08 - 00:04:23:14

Kerri Dawson

And, you know, I think our board does a really good job adhering to this distinction. The board is is really interested in ensuring that the CMA remains, as the accountants would say, a going concern and remains financially stable. And, you know, I can say that the board has absolutely no concerns here that the financial position of the CMA is healthy and the controls in place to ensure that position continues that way are very strong.

00:04:23:14 - 00:04:52:15

Kerri Dawson

So and from a strategic standpoint, the board participated in a really excellent session, which you led, Alison, earlier in the year to refine and make clear the CMA's vision and value proposition. And another key area that the board thinks about is leadership and succession for the CMA and for the board itself. And on that front, I can say that the board is extremely pleased with the leadership at the CMA.

00:04:53:05 - 00:05:17:11

Kerri Dawson

And if you'll allow me, I'd like to offer a happy anniversary to Alison. I think the Board was really pleased to have you join the CMA a year ago in December of 2022, and we've just been thrilled to have you at the helm and we've been equally pleased with the way you've you've built your leadership team and with your approach to achieving the CMA, its vision and strategies.

00:05:18:03 - 00:05:37:05

Kerri Dawson

So we're just just thrilled about that. A final point I'll make, though, about ways of working. Is that a strong working relationship between the CEO and the Chair Award is really essential for success and, you know, unfortunate that this has also been true. It's just been a delight to work with you, Alison, over the past year.

00:05:37:05 - 00:05:42:03

Alison Simpson

And I'm glad you're not on video because you're making me blush. That's a lot of it, really.

00:05:42:18 - 00:05:45:12

Kerri Dawson

I know it's a little surprising there.

00:05:45:12 - 00:06:04:17

Alison Simpson

But it's been I mean, the time has flown by. It's been a great year. And the level of partnership that you've brought and the patience as I'm getting fully up to speed and then the really good, important, healthy debate that you and I have and that we have aboard is so central to making the CMA and the profession stronger.

00:06:04:17 - 00:06:16:01

Alison Simpson

So it's absolute delight and I'm looking forward to 2024. Yeah, me too. Now, from the board's perspective, how do you think the CMA has helped advance the marketing profession in 2023?

00:06:17:04 - 00:06:40:20

Kerri Dawson

Yeah, well, you know, that's a great question. I can say with much enthusiasm that the CMA is a team that works really hard to benefit the marketing community in Canada. I mean, truly the CMA is made up of people who are passionate in their support of the community and and Alison, you have your team really well organized to deliver so much benefit on behalf of marketers in Canada.

00:06:41:17 - 00:07:01:11

Kerri Dawson

And, you know, in speaking directly to how the CMA has advanced the profession there, there are really four key strategies that I think demonstrate the most benefit. And the first is the work that the CMA does to futureproof the marketing profession. You know, this is a key priority and it's one that the CMA is making strong progress on.

00:07:02:06 - 00:07:29:21

Kerri Dawson

The CMA knows that through its research that 97% of members and marketers rate it. The future of marketing as their top thought leadership topic. This is followed really closely by emerging trends and how technological advancements are impacting marketing. And there's no bigger trend right now than I, and the board is really pleased that the CMA has introduced its first Gen AI training for members and marketing.

00:07:30:00 - 00:07:53:18

Kerri Dawson

That happened last April, and since then CMA has added three more Gen AI courses and we know that you're going to be expanding on this in Q1 of 20 and this year we need 24 with an on demand series. And it's also great that the CMA has established the AI Working Group rating thought leadership and guidance for four members.

00:07:53:18 - 00:08:16:06

Kerri Dawson

The CMA is councils and committees are also a really great source for thought leadership that's across a wide range of topics the customer experience and creativity and brand and insights, just to name a few. There are over 300 senior members participating in councils and committees and they're contributing to important discussions and debates about the future of the marketing profession.

00:08:17:11 - 00:08:47:13

Kerri Dawson

The CMA also nurtures the next generation of marketing talent with CMA. Next, the program that that bridges the gap between post-secondary schooling and a successful marketing career. And we're really thrilled that the virtual career nights that you ran last year attracted over 600 students from across Canada. It's fantastic. And of course, this podcast is another way that the CMA is is really helping to futureproof members and marketers.

00:08:48:18 - 00:09:12:20

Kerri Dawson

So secondly, mean as the voice of marketing in Canada, the CMA's advocacy work on behalf of the profession is really a source of pride. You know, those efforts cover a broad spectrum of key topics, but privacy has really been at the forefront and the CMA is working hard to ensure any new privacy laws will enable innovation while protecting Canadians privacy.

00:09:13:08 - 00:09:35:23

Kerri Dawson

In fact, the CMA is the only marketing association in Canada that was invited to appear as a witness in front of the federal parliamentary committee studying privacy law reform. That's that's really amazing. And thank you for including me in the group of board directors and members of the CMA's Privacy and Data Committee who recently met with that privacy commissioner.

00:09:36:08 - 00:09:59:16

Kerri Dawson

You know, we met to discuss some of the issues that are important to marketers related to privacy and data. And I was able to observe firsthand how important the relationship is between the CMA and the commissioner's office and to see how effectively the CMA conveys its position on behalf of its members. Really, really great work. Thirdly, I'm going to talk a bit about diversity, equity and inclusion.

00:09:59:16 - 00:10:37:22

Kerri Dawson

It continues to be a top priority for the CMA. The CMA completed its third annual study in 2023 and the board has been made aware of a discussion guide that's been created. We know that guide is going to be especially useful to help spark conversations about creating more diverse, equitable and inclusive workplaces. And the CMA holds itself to account across a number of diversity dimensions, including gender and ethnicity and diverse representation within councils and committees, and even a geographic dimension to ensure appropriate representation right across Canada, not just here in Toronto.

00:10:38:18 - 00:11:05:23

Kerri Dawson

And as a chair, I asked to see a progress against the Commitments, and I'm really pleased to see that the commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion remains embedded in decision making at the CMA. And then finally, I'll comment that a CMA knows how to have a little fun, a lot of fun, and the CMA actively builds community and brings marketing professionals together through the many different events it hosts.

00:11:06:08 - 00:11:40:09

Kerri Dawson

Those events focus on priority topics for the profession, and they're offered virtually and in person, often for free as part of the corporate membership. The board is really proud of the inaugural CMA future proof event in 2023. It was a huge success and it's one we know you will be building on for 2024. And of course you ended 2023 with the CMA Awards and it was really wonderful to celebrate the exceptional creativity of our profession alongside 850 marketers and agencies.

00:11:40:09 - 00:11:49:09

Kerri Dawson

It was it was wonderful. And so all of these strategies, Alison, have gone a long way to advance the profession. Congratulations on all of that.

00:11:49:09 - 00:12:10:12

Alison Simpson

It's very much that a very, very collaborative effort, certainly with our staff, certainly with the board and with the blessing we have and the number of members we have that are actively volunteering and engaged with the CMA. They're such an important part of our ability to deliver thought leadership, and they're also a very important part of our ability to come together and celebrate the profession and have a lot of fun.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:11:11

Kerri Dawson

Absolutely.

00:12:12:08 - 00:12:22:01

Alison Simpson

The gala was a great way to end 2023 and then, yes, as the board chair, what accomplishments of the CMA and board are you the most proud of?

00:12:22:22 - 00:12:51:02

Kerri Dawson

So I said a few goals when I became board chair and in May of 2022. And the first was to ensure that the CMA has the right leadership and organization in place to guarantee success moving forward. And that's because a key responsibility for a board of directors is succession in leadership for the organization they serve. But, you know, active recruiting for top leadership is not something that all boards get to do very often.

00:12:51:02 - 00:13:21:02

Kerri Dawson

And and we did. And what's especially great is that the outcome has been amazing for the organization. Secondly, I wanted to ensure that the CMA strategy was fit for purpose and and connected to that, I wanted to ensure that a solid 3 to 5 year strategy would be backed by by a five year financial plan, and that strategies in place and the financial plan is is in the works and will be reviewed by the board, the board's finance and audit committee.

00:13:21:19 - 00:13:48:03

Kerri Dawson

And then finally, you know, I wanted to champion a mechanism that would give the board certainty and understanding the CMA's impact on its members, on its membership. So, you know, kind of think a Net promoter score or a regular customer satisfaction survey and that so that the CMA can can tangibly be held to account by the board for effectively serving the needs of the marketing community.

00:13:48:03 - 00:14:21:19

Kerri Dawson

And I'm, I'm really thrilled, Alison, that that's also underway. So as a board working together with you and your leadership team, we've made fantastic progress on, on again towards all of those goals. But I'm most proud as I get ready to hand over the chair seat in May of this year that that you were in place as president and CEO and well supported by a well conceived vision and strategy and with clarity about where the CMA is headed, and that the success that's been achieved by the CMA to date.

00:14:21:19 - 00:14:25:02

Kerri Dawson

Well, we'll continue.

00:14:25:02 - 00:14:41:22

Alison Simpson

Thank you very much. I would not be here without you. And part of a big part of what made the opportunity so appealing was to have you as a chair and have such a strong board, so engaged in helping build the vision for the CMA and really in giving back and helping futureproof our profession.

00:14:42:02 - 00:14:50:15

Kerri Dawson

Well, thank you. That's really kind and it's certainly my pleasure. And I know that's true for for the other directors as well. They, they enjoy the work they do for the CMA. Thank you.

00:14:51:10 - 00:15:10:14

Alison Simpson

And some days I have to remind myself it's volunteer is a you're all in full time jobs, too. So the degree to which you're giving back and committed is really inspiring. Thanks. Now, as we're in the second week of 2024, what do you see as the key focus areas for the year ahead? What what are you most excited about?

00:15:10:17 - 00:15:11:06

Alison Simpson

Yeah.

00:15:11:12 - 00:15:41:16

Kerri Dawson

Yeah. You know, I think yeah, there's a lot to be excited about. I think I think the focus for 2024 continues to be a lot of the same, you know, future proofing the profession, advocacy D and AI and, and community building and really continuing to build on the momentum of 2023. You know the CMA's research shows that the most valued benefit that is offered to members is the opportunity to be part of a community and to learn from other marketers and collaborate and network.

00:15:41:16 - 00:16:08:11

Kerri Dawson

And, and the board is excited that the CMA will be introducing a new way for members to do that with the launch of CMA forward. That's going to be a free online forum for CMA members to come together to debate hot topics, to share thought leadership, and to meet other marketers from right across Canada. And it will include career stage communities in a future focused forum too.

00:16:09:04 - 00:16:38:16

Kerri Dawson

And we're also thrilled that the CMA will be offering even more free, high quality events for members during the year. The research also showed that members want to understand Canadian consumers better, that that's also a really important topic for them, especially as as we're all navigating through these challenging times. So we're excited that the CMA is expanding. Thought leadership in this area and working on an event focused on how Canadian consumers are evolving.

00:16:39:08 - 00:17:08:07

Kerri Dawson

And in May, the CMA is introducing a marketing week, kicking off with a live podcast featuring CMA Marketers of the Year and Lifetime Achievement and Achievement in Marketing Award winners who will be discussing that? The future of marketing and that's a Can't Miss event that's on super exciting CMA Future Proof will be the signature event for the week, and there'll be a CMA Training Day where members can take one of the CMA's air courses for free.

00:17:08:07 - 00:17:42:20

Kerri Dawson

That's really, really wonderful. And Alison, you've brought to the board an evolution of the program for professional development at the CMA. We're thrilled that the CMA is offering an on demand generative AI training series starting in February. It's going to be offered in 30 minute modules, and that's a really smart evolution that recognizes how people are learning these days, and it provides really great training on a topic that is so important for marketers navigating A.I. these days.

00:17:42:20 - 00:18:12:02

Kerri Dawson

So we're also really pleased that you're evolving the Chartered Marketer program. You know, previously marketers can obtain their CMA designation by completing the full CRM course based path or apply for the CRM executive Advanced Standing. If they had more than 15 years experience and moving forward, there is a new advanced standing pathway making completing that designation more relevant to marketers across a wide range of career stages.

00:18:12:10 - 00:18:38:03

Kerri Dawson

So we're excited about that opportunity. And as the voice of marketing in Canada, the CMA is also focused on supporting marketers in transition. So newcomers with marketing experience and encouraging and helping to build the next generation of marketing talent and the CMA is launching a robust upskilling and training initiative to help grow a new and diverse group of marketers.

00:18:38:18 - 00:18:52:04

Kerri Dawson

So that's the focus really across future proofing and advocacy, DIY and community. It's a lot, it's well-planned, it's exciting. It's going to be a great year ahead and.

00:18:53:15 - 00:19:04:12

Alison Simpson

I'm very much looking forward to it. Now, I don't want to let you go without taking advantage of your incredible expertise to have you share one piece of advice with our listeners.

00:19:05:11 - 00:19:32:08

Kerri Dawson

Now, you know, I love the New Year. I really enjoy the opportunity to reflect back on the previous year and look forward to all that that is to come. One of the of the skills of a board director when in the required skills, is that they be able to, as we say, see around corners and anticipate issues. And that's certainly true when it comes to the potential for big changes that that I will bring to the marketing profession.

00:19:32:13 - 00:20:03:23

Kerri Dawson

So I'm looking forward to tracking along with what's evolving in that space. You know, all the potential for use, of course, but also the evolving set of guidelines that are emerging as we marketers and as society generally learn how to use, you know, this new technology for for good, for the good of humanity. And you know, something I've learned from working with really creative people over the years is that a good solid sandbox makes outcomes stronger.

00:20:03:23 - 00:20:26:00

Kerri Dawson

And I think that's true as we navigate this new world of AI with the right guidelines and governance, we can really achieve the right outcomes. So now the practical side of me knows that we are all still navigating through a tough economy and the impacts of inflation and high interest rates are going to be with us for a while longer.

00:20:26:04 - 00:20:57:18

Kerri Dawson

We're heading into a tough year, but I know and you know that the marketing community in Canada is amazing at finding creative solutions for challenges that face them and the businesses in the companies that they help to lead. So my advice is that as a community, let's continue to come together to learn from one another, to share our experience, to understand more deeply the issues that matter to marketers and to celebrate our achievements.

00:20:57:18 - 00:21:08:11

Kerri Dawson

You know, that's important too. So let's continue to stick together as a community in 2024. We've got a really exciting year ahead.

00:21:08:11 - 00:21:24:06

Alison Simpson

Outstanding advice. It's also a great reminder that as busy as we all are, as some of the challenges that we're all collectively managing through, all the more reason to come together and also to celebrate. There was no doubt we as a profession can accomplish a great deal.

00:21:24:12 - 00:21:28:15

Kerri Dawson

Yeah, that's the fun part. That's all about the fun.

00:21:28:15 - 00:21:49:03

Alison Simpson

Well, Kerry, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. Especially early in the new year. I know it's a busy year. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us on the podcast today. Share a bit about the CMA. And I really also want to thank you for being such an active advocate and volunteer with the CMA for such a long period of time.

00:21:49:10 - 00:21:53:18

Alison Simpson

And as board chair, you've had such a significant impact on Thrilled to have been part of it.

00:21:54:01 - 00:22:11:16

Kerri Dawson

Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Alison. And on behalf of the board, a big a big, big thank you to you and your incredible CMA team for all that you do to support marketers in Canada. You know, I'm really excited about what's on the horizon and I look forward to continuing to work with you in 2024 and be great.

00:22:13:06 - 00:22:26:03

Announcer

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Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, and Susan O'Brien, Chief Brand and Customer Officer at Canadian Tire Corporation (CTC), discuss what it takes to understand your customers, staying true to your brand promises and innovative strategies to positively impact Canadians.

00:00:02:10 - 00:00:21:00

Announcer

Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMAs CEO Allison Simpson.

00:00:22:03 - 00:00:51:11

Alison Simpson

Today we're joined by Susan O’Brien, who's a chief brand and customer officer at Canadian Tire. Susan oversees a very broad mandate, and this responsible for the brand and marketing for the organization's full family of 13 banners includes everything from SportChek, party city, Helly Hansen, Marks and Canadian Tire Financial, to name a few. So she's very well suited to chat about what it takes to market a complex portfolio through a challenging economy, while also ensuring that she's staying true to the brand and the promises that are made.

00:00:52:10 - 00:01:14:17

Alison Simpson

Now, I've long believed that a real superpower of marketers is our deep understanding of customers and how they can help businesses innovate and differentiate from a marketing perspective, but also across all aspects of the business. I know from our earlier conversations that Susan agrees and is a really terrific example of bringing this super power to life. So thanks so much for joining us on CMA Connect today, Susan.

00:01:14:18 - 00:01:16:09

Alison Simpson

I'm looking forward to a great conversation.

00:01:17:10 - 00:01:20:16

Susan O’Brien

Alison, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here today.

00:01:20:22 - 00:01:33:02

Alison Simpson

Susan, we're going to kick things off knowing that you manage one of the largest brand portfolios in Canada. I would love to hear how you're building business and maintaining strong brands across your portfolio of banners, especially in the face of global competition.

00:01:33:13 - 00:02:07:14

Susan O’Brien

Such an important question, I would say, for all marketers, but in particular, right now for retail marketers, because of the seismic shift that has happened over the last several years in terms of the retail landscape with respect to the types of competition, we're up against being very significantly larger global in scale companies like Amazon, Walmart, Costco, Home Depot, but also there's been such a shift over the last number of years in what I would call the new tools available to marketers to build strong and enduring brands.

00:02:07:14 - 00:02:43:16

Susan O’Brien

So I think I point that out because those who know me know I talk a lot about the shifting role of marketers, that normalization and this idea that because of this shift in the landscape and because of the opportunities provided to us by new tools like loyalty, first party data, deep customer analytics, even emerging technologies like AI, these things are all allowing the customer to be more at the center of the conversation, and not just in marketing, but across all of the decision making in the company.

00:02:43:18 - 00:03:06:02

Susan O’Brien

So I'd point all those things out because I think the question of how do you build brands today as a marketer has shifted so much, and I'm very pleased to say marketers now for the most part have been much bigger role at the executive table. Their ability to influence decision making by using these new tools that help us better understand the customer.

00:03:06:10 - 00:03:32:02

Susan O’Brien

It's real and it's happening and in particular is happening at Inspire. And so I would say given the portfolio of brands we have, you know, there's a million things we're doing to make sure those brands are strong and relevant. But if I could sort of boil it down to sort of what I think is fundamental, if you're a marketer today, will sort of ask yourself some of these questions around, does it start with your strategy?

00:03:32:09 - 00:03:58:03

Susan O’Brien

Does you know the notion of the importance of brand and the importance of customer really reside in your strategy at the top of the house, is your CEO endorsing it? Do you feel like you have partners across the business in doing so? Because it's the domain of marketers to have lots of understanding of the customer, but it has to work in concert with folks who are running the businesses and making decisions every day.

00:03:58:11 - 00:04:23:08

Susan O’Brien

So Canadian Tire, I am happy to report we have a strategy called Better Connected. It was launched two and a half, three years ago and it is, as the name implies, all about connections. And there's sort of three key areas of connections that might plays a pretty integral role in and shifting role of marketers. And how does that translate into building stronger brand?

00:04:23:08 - 00:04:51:09

Susan O’Brien

So the first area I think is really important, which is creating stronger emotional connections as a relatively large domestic player. But relative to our competition, small from a global perspective, we can't do our competition on their core differentiators. We have to focus on what differentiates us and for us. Canadian Tire as part of our better connected strategy. That's about emotional connection.

00:04:51:15 - 00:05:19:12

Susan O’Brien

That is about this relationship we have with mediums that is unique and that allows us to really build what I would call longer term like, like time loyalty. I have a team that spends a lot of time on that. These so everything from the traditional marketing aspects around truly end to end full funnel marketing campaigns for all our various areas, but also things like communications and how does that play a role in creating brand moments that connect with medium?

00:05:19:20 - 00:05:42:21

Susan O’Brien

That's one big area. The second area of connection in our better connected strategy is about customer connections, like literally down to using our loyalty program. It's my portfolio, the unbelievable first party data we get from that and turning that into real insights that allow us to do better marketing and to stay really connected in a way more relevant for our customers.

00:05:42:21 - 00:06:06:15

Susan O’Brien

Right message, right time, right place. And then the third area of connection is within the notion of creating an omnichannel, seamless omni channel experience. Physical meets digital in a way that lets a customer shop when how they want. And I have a team that oversees sort of those assets website and mobile app. And then how does that connect what happens in-store.

00:06:06:15 - 00:06:14:18

Susan O’Brien

So all of those things are what we're focused on as a company to stay super relevant and more connected to our customer.

00:06:14:18 - 00:06:41:05

Alison Simpson

That's such great perspective. Thanks, Susan. I want to go back to one of the things you touched on as far as the marketer toolkit has absolutely expanded and in that expansion, giving us some really powerful tools to support our colleagues at the C-suite and have increased credibility at the C-suite. You also very rightly called out that having CEOs operate around customer centricity is mission critical, and not every organization has a CEO that embraces that.

00:06:41:06 - 00:06:54:05

Alison Simpson

So for those that are listening, that might not have that benefit, is there any advice you can offer as far as leveraging the tools and helping our executive colleagues understand the importance of customer centricity?

00:06:54:21 - 00:07:21:16

Susan O’Brien

Yeah, we are blessed to have a CEO who genuinely believes that. I just said point out that because Canadian Tire has been for 100 years very local in the way we go to market, we have a dealer model, the dealers are in their communities. We are sought based on that community. We have local, you know, activations around charitable causes, etc. and community really show strong community.

00:07:22:01 - 00:07:39:15

Susan O’Brien

It is second nature to us and so we're starting from a place of strength. So that's like I just you need to bring that out. But with that said, when you consider as a marketer that your job is really to be that customer at the table, like that's how I think of my job and that can be that was daunting.

00:07:39:15 - 00:08:00:05

Susan O’Brien

I mean, I think back to early parts of my career, it's daunting because sometimes there's a temptation go, Yeah, yeah, we know the customer stuff. The truth is, you know, the economics would suggest we should do that or this the other thing. What's different now is we have that we have data that can truly enable that sort of credibility.

00:08:00:05 - 00:08:38:21

Susan O’Brien

So when you have a tool kit that includes significant first party data, for example, not just from our loyalty program, but we also have the credit card that is not a store card, credit card that people use outside. There's facts and data that you can bring to the table with sort of certainty and credibility when you have programs in place like Net Promoter Score, which you do across every aspect of our customer experience, there is a fact in there that, you know, at this point there is friction in the customers telling us and by the way, we can see that it's translating into news in sales or lack of conversion or whatever that might be.

00:08:38:21 - 00:09:06:21

Susan O’Brien

So these tools are just giving us much more credibility to be able to have those conversations. The only other thing I'll just sort of point out here is in it's not just that you've got customer data now there's new tools to enable the use of that customer data. So, you know, you think about things like the ability to know a customer better and to be able to offer them something that they need that is relevant at a certain point of time.

00:09:07:04 - 00:09:24:03

Susan O’Brien

That information's not just valuable to marketers, it's valuable to store operations. It's valuable to our merchants who plan assortments based on what customers want. So there's just so many more tools available to marketers that voice the tool.

00:09:24:23 - 00:09:41:03

Alison Simpson

That's great. Thanks, Susan. Now, my next question is a three parter and definitely a topic that I know our listeners are super interested in. So given the current economic climate, growing interest rates, financial struggles for many Canadians, how can businesses and marketers effectively connect with consumers?

00:09:41:13 - 00:10:10:18

Susan O’Brien

This is a massive conversation happening right now. As you rightly point out, it's difficult to even want to use the R word, but let's call it an economic downturn. It goes back to what I just said, to be honest with you, which is if you understand your customers and you understand where they are in their lives. And that's really what I mean by like, there's lots of tools, data, there's the elements for the end of day, the outcome is that you understand your customers where they are and you've got to meet them.

00:10:10:18 - 00:10:35:10

Susan O’Brien

There. And again, we're very fortunate at Canadian Tire because you even just look at what we sell at a single band or let's say cage or retail. We have the ability to, if we understand where customers are, is it? And in what we focus on and what we offer them. With 200 and some business categories, a key insight, we have just gone through that very sort of privileged data.

00:10:35:10 - 00:10:57:20

Susan O’Brien

We have our customer data from our credit card. We have lots of good insights and get them earlier so you can really start to shift. So for example, we saw really early that customers were starting to shift from what we call discretionary into essentials, meaning it makes sense, right? You know, you're feeling a little more constrained financially. You're going to start shifting.

00:10:58:08 - 00:11:18:17

Susan O’Brien

And that's not rocket science. But what is, is our ability to know which customers and which income levels and therefore, what does that mean for our assortment? What does that mean for what we market and what we sort of put out there is value messaging. How do you change your 1 to 1 offers program so that you can be sort of more relevant from a value perspective?

00:11:19:01 - 00:11:46:14

Susan O’Brien

What does that mean in terms of how you assort from a good, better best perspective in your stores? So the ability to really have tools to understand your customer and then to put them into action so that you really can pivot and show up differently when Canadians need you to be there differently. And so that's really been for us especially, we get asked a lot about, you know, how were you, how are you different than in the 2008 recession?

00:11:46:14 - 00:12:04:11

Susan O’Brien

And what we always say is we're just literally a far more resilient company because we have new capabilities that we didn't have back then. And I don't think a lot of marketers and companies have. But you got to want to understand that customer and where they are and then have the tools and ability to pivot the offering in the way you market to them.

00:12:04:20 - 00:12:14:15

Alison Simpson

You're absolutely right. And then even the definition of essentials, depending on where you are in life stage, from an economic background perspective, your definition of essential is fundamentally different.

00:12:14:15 - 00:12:15:18

Susan O’Brien

Absolutely.

00:12:15:23 - 00:12:19:02

Alison Simpson

So being able to drill down on that would be incredibly powerful.

00:12:19:02 - 00:12:19:15

Susan O’Brien

It's amazing.

00:12:19:23 - 00:12:23:09

Alison Simpson

Now, are you seeing any regional differences in how Canadians are responding?

00:12:23:15 - 00:12:53:05

Susan O’Brien

For sure we do. I think one of the biggest aspirations we have is in this fairly rigorous analytical modeling is just probably not a surprise. But again, those with the most debt are reducing the most in terms of spend. And so our ability to understand exactly where that is happening is helping us again, change the way we show up in those in those markets in terms of the offering and the way we market, etc..

00:12:53:05 - 00:13:12:21

Susan O’Brien

So yeah, we're seeing regional differences just driven by the fact that, you know, some provinces, some regions are carrying heavier debt loads. So how do you make sure that you're there for them when they need you in that different way, be it or offers or or value, etc.?

00:13:13:18 - 00:13:22:15

Alison Simpson

And have you seen any new opportunities or new consumer segments emerge as Canadians are grappling with economic pressures?

00:13:23:07 - 00:13:44:21

Susan O’Brien

The way we think about this is are fortunate because we do have such substantial data to be able to segment as required based on that need. So yeah, I mean, what I would say is we have a segmentation that really looks at value in terms of how our customers and what we're seeing is there's this shift. So it's not that there's a new segment, it's that people are shifting within that segment.

00:13:44:21 - 00:14:10:06

Susan O’Brien

So you might have been, you know, someone who would have responded less to our flier, you might have bought more on price, you might have spent less time taking us up on our 1 to 1 offers program and tribal rewards. And you might have bought more national brands, let's say. So there's you know, the ability to go well seeing customer just eating differently in this moment.

00:14:10:14 - 00:14:15:12

Susan O’Brien

And fortunately you know we have a suite of offerings that and and the more they are.

00:14:15:21 - 00:14:38:04

Alison Simpson

It's great and marketers and brand leaders can have a unique opportunity to certainly drive awareness and change for important social issues. So this is a great example. Certainly ESG and I know that this is the case for Canadian Tire, certainly with your commitment to make life in Canada better. So how do you determine which societal areas you want to make a positive impact on?

00:14:38:14 - 00:14:41:19

Alison Simpson

And what are some of the initiatives that you've developed to make life in Canada better?

00:14:42:07 - 00:15:20:08

Susan O’Brien

You know, I go back to our what I call better connected strategy, because that's the strategy. But that strategy was built off of a renewed and evolved brand purpose. But again, CEO support, this was not like the marketers saying we better have a brand purpose or this was our CEO wanting to codify the role we play in the lives of Canadians and the difference in that versus, hey, we should do something like this, you know, driven by the folks in New York, the marketers, whatever you want to call it, is substantial because it formed the foundation of our strategy.

00:15:20:18 - 00:15:47:14

Susan O’Brien

And the idea was every decision has to flow through that lens and not just the sort of call it corporate responsibility decisions. Every decision across the five pillars of that better strategy. Not only do we look at almost every decision we make through that lens, we also actually have a pillar that is focused on that, that notion of, I would say, ESG, but I would say broad broadly.

00:15:48:07 - 00:16:12:00

Susan O’Brien

It's this idea of how are we again, in the context of creating emotional connections for Canadians, making decisions that support Canadians, help build this country. We call it sometimes we call our role as a nation builder like we have. We have an accountability responsibility to this country to make sure that we're operating in a way that is right for Canadians.

00:16:12:11 - 00:16:38:18

Susan O’Brien

And so we've spent a lot of time going through very specific. What does that look like? What does it look like? We call it debate the entire diversity and inclusion and belonging. What does that what does that look like? And we've got substantial progress made in terms of people feeling like they belong through ERGs and sort of courageous conversations and real shifts in how we think about diversity.

00:16:39:07 - 00:17:03:03

Susan O’Brien

When you go to sort of the more aspect of it, the environmental aspect of it, we spent significant time. We even have a committee within our board at it's called the Branded Corporate Responsibility Committee, and they oversee our strategy. And so when you look at the EA, we launched our first ESG official ESG report about a year ago, again, driven out of this better strategy, just launched second one on September 6th.

00:17:03:08 - 00:17:37:06

Susan O’Brien

And there's some pretty big commitments in there. We made a scope, one and two commitment in that we made another commitment around unity with respect to have heard that we have committed 50% of our total sponsorship money to women's professional sports. And then we just recently became the founding sponsor of the Women's Professional Hockey League in Canada. We have doubled down on our crisis sort of interventions due across the country when there's a weather situation, flooding, etc. are released.

00:17:37:06 - 00:18:08:04

Susan O’Brien

From the humanitarian perspective, we have a partnership with Red Cross. So, I mean, I could go on and on and these are literally initiatives driven out of that promise to be there to make life better for Canadians and our beliefs that we have a very important long history. And it is not just to sell stuff to people. And so it just once you've said that people act that way, they come up with ways to sort of deliver on that promise in the most interesting ways.

00:18:08:04 - 00:18:13:17

Susan O’Brien

I'm normally delighted by what I hear happens across the organization in this regard.

00:18:13:17 - 00:18:38:10

Alison Simpson

And building on that point, you are truly making a difference as a brand of business in Canada and having the network of store owners that you do have across the country. I've seen some amazing examples of store owners sort of taking it on their own initiative to live up to that. And there was a snowstorm where literally the entire town was closed down, that the Canadians tire store and our went in and opened it up to support the community.

00:18:38:17 - 00:18:45:11

Alison Simpson

So what are some of the ways that you've been able to get that level of commitment from your store owners as well?

00:18:45:18 - 00:19:23:01

Susan O’Brien

It's probably clever, but I love this company. I believe in what we're trying to do and I think the dealers are we call them our associate dealers, dealers, those store owners. They are the heart of this company. And so when we talk about I said we evolved and codified our purpose, we are here to make life better. When you're doing that for a corporation that has a number of banners and a bank and a whole bunch, things like that, you naturally default to your sort of color, your organizing logic as a company.

00:19:23:01 - 00:19:46:12

Susan O’Brien

And that organizing logic is around the entire retail and community. Retail is built through our dealers and how they show up in their community. So in some ways, I mean, we didn't have to encourage anything. If anything, we built off the legacy that they have in this company being there. So it's the craziest thing. We we have our corporate things and initiatives we have to do and want to do and not to do.

00:19:46:19 - 00:20:13:04

Susan O’Brien

And then we have this like unbelievable sort of on the ground, always on community ambassadors in our dealers, in the stores. You know, I just came back from our dealer convention, which happened, and all our dealers come together, talk strategy and a variety of other things. And we have an award. And every year, I swear to God, it breaks me up for dealers who do things in their communities and kind of blows your mind.

00:20:13:04 - 00:20:34:05

Susan O’Brien

I'm not kidding. It's our secret sauce. It is our ability to be here for another 100 years runs directly through those two or so. You don't have to encourage much. The only thing I would say is we're just really trying to even understand more of what they do, frankly, so that we can make sure that all the best practices and things that we're doing, we understand.

00:20:34:05 - 00:20:39:07

Susan O’Brien

So that's a little bit of work we took on as part of the thing. But we're we're very fortunate.

00:20:39:18 - 00:20:50:13

Alison Simpson

And screwed now as we look ahead to 2024 and unfortunately, the potential for another challenging economic year, how can brands ensure that they're staying true to the promises that they've made?

00:20:50:23 - 00:21:14:03

Susan O’Brien

Yeah, this is a big one. I mean, there's lots out there literature wise. Yes. Painting in terms of importance to companies and is going to be put on hold at I'll just put it out there, I believe amp put on hold. But it does have to be balanced with everything else that has to get done because we can't actually be great at ESG if we're not being successful at business.

00:21:14:16 - 00:21:33:13

Susan O’Brien

And it's like there's not trade offs there. I fundamentally need that now, especially for a company that believes we're going to differentiate based on emotional connection that, you know, the two go hand in hand. You're not trading off some ESG initiative for building your business, but you do need to balance the investments you make. So that's what it's about.

00:21:33:13 - 00:21:53:05

Susan O’Brien

I mean, that is those are the conversations that happen and you make commitments and those commitments need to be felt. So it really is you know, it's that conversation, that belief in your strategy and coming together to say, how do we accomplish? Or then we probably should based on what's happening in the market right now. But we are committed.

00:21:53:05 - 00:22:15:01

Susan O’Brien

Certainly. I think one thing I just threw out there is our Jumpstart charity. I didn't mention it earlier and the long list of things we've been doing, probably because we've been doing it for 15 years now, just celebrating 15 years a long time. And that program we there's no scaling back on that really ever. We have just continuously invested in it.

00:22:15:07 - 00:22:38:21

Susan O’Brien

We've expanded the mandate of that program to not just be about helping kids, you know, who can't get into sports from an economic perspective to how do we help young women become leaders through sport. So we there's no pullback on our part, but there is a balancing and a lot of creativity being used to get to that end game, just given where companies are right now.

00:22:38:21 - 00:22:40:13

Susan O’Brien

I think everyone is headed that way.

00:22:41:06 - 00:22:59:18

Alison Simpson

Thank you on behalf of the amazing company you're working for. I certainly growing up was encouraged to be involved in sports when it wasn't always the norm for females. And I think about the life learning I got from that, the way it helped set me up for professional success. The just the the grit that you develop and being involved in that.

00:22:59:18 - 00:23:12:03

Alison Simpson

So that legacy you have as enabling Canadians who don't have the financial means to enjoy and benefit from that learning and those life skills is absolutely commendable. So thank.

00:23:12:03 - 00:23:13:07

Susan O’Brien

You. Thank you, Alison.

00:23:13:16 - 00:23:25:11

Alison Simpson

Now, absolutely. There are going to be some valuable insights shared today, Susan, and you certainly didn't disappoint. So I'd love to close by asking you to share one piece of advice for the marketers who are listening to us today.

00:23:26:06 - 00:23:59:16

Susan O’Brien

I think it comes back to I put myself in my younger shoes and I think about the times where I didn't feel that I had a voice at the table. Maybe different for some brands, but if you feel like that, challenge yourself and push yourself at the worst thing that anyone could say is no. But if you really believe it, you need to bring that voice of the customer to the table, even when you're uncomfortable, it matters.

00:23:59:16 - 00:24:17:05

Susan O’Brien

It can make a difference. And I feel very fortunate to work for a company that does value that. But I also don't always win. There are there are times where, you know, there's other considerations and again, it comes back to, that's okay, you got to move that penny forward every day, day in day out.

00:24:18:05 - 00:24:34:04

Alison Simpson

And that's such great advice. And as a younger marketer, I also suffered from the will and willingness to be brave enough to speak up. The good news is it does get easier, but you really do have to take that risk and ultimately what you learn as No, it doesn't hurt that much.

00:24:34:17 - 00:24:47:01

Susan O’Brien

It has not hurt that much. Yeah, 100%. You do. And that's that whole sort of notion of test and learn culture. It's okay. It's okay if everything doesn't work. What did you learn from it? Yeah, some.

00:24:47:01 - 00:24:59:16

Alison Simpson

Of my most valuable lessons came the hard way, for sure. So, Susan, I want to thank you again. I know you're incredibly busy and I really appreciate you taking time to join us on CMA Connect today. And I wish you a great rest of your day.

00:24:59:22 - 00:25:08:21

Susan O’Brien

I'd just like to say to you, thank you for all the tremendous work you're doing at the CMA from all the marketers who really benefit from your work. I really appreciate it.

00:25:08:21 - 00:25:19:15

Alison Simpson

So great and blessed to have a great team and a lot of very actively involved members who are volunteering. So I will take the thank you on their behalf as well.

00:25:22:10 - 00:25:36:18

Announcer

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, and Cathy Collier, CEO of OMD, delve into everything from the dynamic changes in consumer behaviour to the explosive surge of connected TV and the challenges local and mass media will face now and in the years ahead.

00:00:02:10 - 00:00:23:09

Announcer

Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMS CEO Allison Simpson.

00:00:23:09 - 00:00:49:13

Alison Simpson

The marketing profession has experienced an absolute tsunami of change, and media will be a prime example of that, especially when it comes to mass media with connected TV reaching scale with Canada leading the world in livestream, signal availability and attention metrics becoming more important, a massive evolution is absolutely underway. Today, I'm very pleased to be joined by Cathy Collier, the CEO of OMD and a leader in Canada's media and agency community.

00:00:50:04 - 00:02:29:00

Alison Simpson

Cathy's expertise and deep knowledge on media in Canada make her a terrific guide through the media tsunami. She'll share her insights on how mass media is changing, and it absolutely promises to be a thought provoking discussion. Thanks so much for joining us on CMA Connect today. Cathy, We're going to kick things off by having you answer what trends you're seeing that are most important for marketers for 2024.

00:02:29:00 - 00:03:10:02

Cathy Collier

So connected TV has to reach scale as well and in a lot of markets, but also in Canada, 74% of Canadian households have a smart TV. So connected TV is starting to close the gap in screen time spent between mobile and really the hardware that is now in living rooms. So thanks to many factors like Samsung plus really an avalanche of services, including our latest acronym, FAST, which stands for free ad supported streaming TV.

00:03:10:07 - 00:03:52:02

Cathy Collier

And a good example of that is Corus's Pluto. But both hardware and the services are really changing that ten foot living room experiences and the economies of mass media forever. And then moving on to what would be the third trend that we're paying attention to, that everyone is paying attention to? Is A.I. within the loop of creativity. So really, the first impact I think everyone is seeing is inclusive of ideation, of audience testing, dynamic, creative, as well as content and writing within SEO.

00:03:52:22 - 00:04:23:18

Cathy Collier

But as we all know, A.I. is really, really tricky on ethics. The biases that are built in intellectual property and privacy. You only have to look at the writers strike to know how much impact it is having. And I heard a great analogy about A.I., and that is, you know, they build F1 cars to go really, really fast, but they also design them with state of the art brakes.

00:04:24:04 - 00:04:28:16

Cathy Collier

So to avoid crashing and I don't think that we have the brakes yet.

00:04:29:05 - 00:04:31:01

Alison Simpson

That is such a fitting analogy. I love it.

00:04:31:09 - 00:05:16:05

Cathy Collier

So and fourth of four things that we're paying attention to and really have been building data around is attention planning and optimization around it. It really sheds light on how important scripted programing news and audio formats are. So OMD has been investing in attention for a number of years. Attention is a key indicator for effectiveness. Studies by amplified intelligence uses advanced eye tracking, and they've shown a strong correlation between the amount of attention paid to ad formats and their impact on both short term sales and long term salience.

00:05:16:05 - 00:05:51:24

Cathy Collier

So all of these trends, all four trends are showing how quickly things are changing pretty significantly. And it does highlight the opportunities. But it brings to mind really the conversation that continues to be underlying, which is all about impact measurement and the business value of a brand, the importance of unified measurement and how we're working with marketers to define frameworks that help them demonstrate the value marketing brings to the business.

00:05:52:05 - 00:06:05:19

Cathy Collier

Even in the face of all this change and fragmentation. And it's hard, right? The math is hard, the politics are harder and but they're doable and we're doing it now.

00:06:06:02 - 00:06:27:15

Alison Simpson

That's such a great overview and thanks for sharing those four crucial trends. For every marketer that's listening today. And also to acknowledge you're obviously right, it is so incredibly hard. And I'm getting to my second question. When you take what's happening in the marketplace and overlay consumer behaviors, it just adds to the complexity. It still is doable, but it certainly won't be easy.

00:06:28:05 - 00:06:37:09

Alison Simpson

So on that note, how is changing consumer behavior affecting the media landscape, and what are the specific implications, ones that you see for the traditional mass media formats?

00:06:38:05 - 00:07:05:21

Cathy Collier

Good question, though. I think at a very high level, just looking at it, we know that consumers have been equally enabled through technology, but also through an abundance of content and they're spending a little bit of time at a whole bunch of places. Another word for fragmentation, of content, of platform of time, and they now have infinite choice and it's resulted in a couple other sub trends.

00:07:06:02 - 00:07:42:03

Cathy Collier

One that we've seen is a craving for nostalgia, and you can see it manifesting itself in the resurgence of programs like The Office. And if you look around, you can see nine of these type kind of topography being used in different campaigns. So they're also longing for that cultural connection. But at this point, taking all of those trends, we know that both consumers and media are trying to find the next set of viable models.

00:07:42:15 - 00:08:17:16

Cathy Collier

We can see that there's fractures right across the business models, and it's not really a debate whether the big prod casters and editorial publications will be still around or will change. They will have to be changing and they are changing. And this decade long trend of consumers migrating to new forms of content has led to new business models and economic realities that right so owners and content marketers have to get ahead of.

00:08:18:00 - 00:09:00:21

Cathy Collier

We can see that broadcast delivery units are not able to fund and share revenue and fuel an entire mass ecosystem the way they could in the past. And it's not coming back and looking specifically at local media and news. We can see that there's growing awareness among marketers and agencies on the impact to local media, and it's crucial to connect this awareness with the challenges facing local news outlets in the current climate and what's often overlooked is that this industry issue isn't solely a matter of economic concern.

00:09:01:08 - 00:09:41:07

Cathy Collier

It is a pressing social concern. Access to trusted Canadian news outlets for reliable information has become vital, particularly in an era where misinformation is on the rise. So finally, what our role is and all of this change as marketers and agents is I think that there's an opportunity for local media and brands to come together as businesses, not clients, not sales people, marketers and business owners, and innovate for the sake of shared growth in a very tough market.

00:09:42:14 - 00:09:58:01

Cathy Collier

By more ads doesn't help anyone in the long term. The role of the agency, we believe, is to very clearly orchestrate the conversation on both sides and keep it focused on what big picture matters.

00:09:58:20 - 00:10:24:24

Alison Simpson

Thanks, Cathy. And when you bring it back to Canadian consumer as and that, obviously we all want to be abreast of what's happening on the global stage. We also equally, if not more, want to be well on what's happening in our country and our neighborhoods. So can you share any data are learning you have on Canadian consumers desire around local media and what they're really looking for local media to deliver on?

00:10:24:24 - 00:10:32:13

Alison Simpson

Because that also opens the doors for opportunities for our Canadian media, media companies, marketers and agencies as well.

00:10:33:04 - 00:10:49:23

Cathy Collier

So I think consumers aren't aware of the changes going on, right. So and they need to be aware we need to make a bigger deal of the absence of local information and facts being made to them.

00:10:50:07 - 00:11:04:23

Alison Simpson

So when you what do you see as marketers and media agencies role in the transformation and in helping legacy media companies find a path for it? We know it's not going to be easy, but it's mission critical. So how can we work together to create the path for it?

00:11:05:23 - 00:11:32:08

Cathy Collier

So I think that there is a lot of examples of how the media companies are already evolving. And I'll just I'll mention a couple. I think we need to create more opportunities. So a couple of the great examples of how the media companies are evolving is chorus, right? Chorus launching Stack TV, a Canadian subscription video streaming package through Amazon's Prime channels.

00:11:32:18 - 00:12:01:02

Cathy Collier

That was a great example of them. Rogers Launching their Frequency podcast is another example. Rogers becoming the rep for Disney Plus in Canada. Again, more evolution. And then I think we can look in terms of publishing to how the Globe and Mail has really transformed. And I think it's over 60% of their revenue now comes from paying subscribers.

00:12:01:02 - 00:12:33:07

Cathy Collier

They have had so much success using the paywall automation technology called Sofi that runs on AI and was recently acquired and had that much value. We look to the US and New York Times. They've been buying things like Myrdal and the serial podcaster. So I think there's a lot of experimentation that marketers can take heart of heart from and really dig in to those conversations with the with the media owners.

00:12:33:15 - 00:12:57:21

Alison Simpson

And the examples of Canadian companies partnering with global companies and really coming together to deliver a better product and experience for consumers, as well as benefiting both of their businesses, is absolutely the path for that we'd all love to see. Yes. Now, can you envision a future without mass broadcasts? And if so, get out your crystal ball and when would you predict it to end?

00:12:57:21 - 00:13:00:06

Alison Simpson

And what measures can be taken to preserve it?

00:13:00:09 - 00:13:32:14

Cathy Collier

So I think the question is more will we notice when broadcast evolves to broadband and the current broadcasters: Bell... Rogers... There are also Internet providers combined with the strength of connected TV and with all the channels available through the apps, we may not notice. So what will happen? We think that, as we've said, connectivity, TV and advanced TV is maturing.

00:13:33:03 - 00:14:24:01

Cathy Collier

There's a technology footprint, a user base, a set of modern marketing tools that can and will keep the ten foot living room experience viable. Within this, we have a type of TV kind of reemerging as this free thing off the cable box, and the consequences are always really quite far reaching. We've talked about fast, that free ad supported streaming TV and this delivery distribution type is basically an unencumbered cable box that anyone can package up a few hundred hours of free TV around a thing theme and distribute it on one of the distributors like Pluto or Amazon or Samsung TV.

00:14:24:21 - 00:14:57:03

Cathy Collier

It is super interesting and we'll have the opportunity, although it's longer form content nearly entirely video based, but it can behave much like pre social internet. So many of the producers and media companies will enter The space will be what you call smaller businesses that will be in the same pool as the well-established media brands. So you've got hundreds of free ad supported channels on fast.

00:14:57:18 - 00:15:16:08

Cathy Collier

They're now distributed and all of these people, all these people forms, those will need to really consolidate everything together. So what's even more interesting, have major cultural events moving off of TV are certainly being challenged by other media.

00:15:17:06 - 00:15:45:12

Alison Simpson

There's so many examples of where a legacy business across many different industries gets upset by a startup who doesn't have the history, doesn't have the infrastructure, and can approach the industry from an entirely new way. So it's a great call out for our established media companies to have the need for them to continue to innovate and things like a start up while they're continuing to maintain and build a business they have today.

00:15:46:01 - 00:15:48:03

Alison Simpson

Not an easy balance, but certainly an important one.

00:15:48:14 - 00:15:49:08

Cathy Collier

Now for sure.

00:15:49:23 - 00:16:06:08

Alison Simpson

So great. Thanks so much for your insights today. I am not going to let you off the hook quite yet, though. I'd love you to leave our listeners with what advice you would give for first legacy media companies, then media agencies and then marketers. All right.

00:16:06:19 - 00:16:43:03

Cathy Collier

So in terms of legacy media companies, I think continue what you're doing, continue to think about and develop distribution across multiple platforms to echo where consumers are to look internationally for opportunities like Pluto and three are a start to engage with, with our help in conversations with marketers of products that we can develop together. In terms of media agencies, we need to continue.

00:16:43:04 - 00:17:15:11

Cathy Collier

We have done a really good job of getting the pipes in order of sourcing the data, using the data, and we need to really focus on our comms planning and specific weekly creativity focus because there is something called the born rest off a fact. And what that is, is that when you see a sea of sameness, if there is something a bit different, your eye will immediately go to that.

00:17:15:20 - 00:18:03:06

Cathy Collier

And so we need to be factoring in creative but also media creativity to to partner and make it even stronger too, for media agencies using all of the data we have within attention to refocus on places that consumers are paying attention like scripted video, scripted audio, and so make a concerted effort to be going where consumers are and then finally make sure that we continue or start using learning agendas and measurement frameworks so that we can be proving the impact marketing is having to sales.

00:18:03:23 - 00:18:37:24

Cathy Collier

And then finally, for marketers, we need to continue using and developing MMS, right? They are a great modeling tool to be able to tie your marketing efforts to the sales. And again, they're not easy, they're not fast, they're not free, and they do need to be done with an expert partner. B And for again, for marketers to be open for the creativity and innovation, embrace creators.

00:18:38:02 - 00:19:02:06

Cathy Collier

As a media channel, we've experimented with influencers but really consider creators as a potential media channel. And then finally, always focus on what is culturally important to attract people who have unlimited choice. We need to be creating tribes and focusing on what resonate to these people.

00:19:02:18 - 00:19:32:01

Alison Simpson

I think that's great advice and it all resonates to that. Really jumped out for me was the way to break out of that sea of sameness. You shared it as a great advice for media agencies, but it's very applicable to media legacy media companies and marketers as well. And then when I think about MMM, and I've been in the profession long enough to remember the days where it was seen to be nirvana, where you could actually prove directly link the marketing dollars through to the business results it was driving.

00:19:32:06 - 00:19:53:06

Alison Simpson

So I know it's not easy. I know it takes investment, but it is such a crucial way for us to demonstrate the business value that the marketing profession brings to all of the businesses. And Brand three represents and ultimately to our country's GDP. So absolutely outstanding advice on all fronts. And with that, I want to thank you so much for joining us today.

00:19:53:06 - 00:20:06:07

Alison Simpson

I know you're very busy, but you're also someone who has been such a passionate advocate for the media industry in the marketing profession. And I really appreciate you taking time today to share your insights with our listeners.

00:20:06:19 - 00:20:14:23

Cathy Collier

Thank you for the invitation. I've enjoyed our conversation.

00:20:14:23 - 00:20:29:06

Announcer

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

Join the CEO of CMA, Alison Simpson, as she welcomes Jeremy Tucker, the EVP, Global Chief Marketing Officer at Spin Master Ltd. to rediscover the power of play, and the magic that dwells within us all.

00:00:02:11 - 00:00:21:08 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:13 - 00:00:45:11 Alison: Today on CMA Connect, we're going to probe into the fascinating world of toys and children's entertainment. We're also going to hear how Spin Master, a Canadian company, has built a thriving global business and brand from a Canadian head office. Our guest today is Jeremy Tucker. Jeremy is Spin Masters EVP and Global Chief Marketing Officer. He joined the company after working on leading global brands, including Disney, Pepsi and Nissan, to name a few.

00:00:46:08 - 00:00:52:12 Alison: Jeremy just celebrated his first anniversary with Spin Master, so, Jeremy, happy anniversary and it's great to have you joining us today.   00:00:52:19 - 00:00:56:14 Jeremy: Thank you, Alison. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk today.

00:00:56:15 - 00:01:17:15 Alison: Now, I'm going to start by talking a bit about the global brand that Spin Master has built. A number of Canadian brands have tried to expand beyond our borders and struggled. Your brand has been incredibly successful and now significantly more of your business is from outside Canada than inside. This is a success that our listeners are absolutely keen to learn from.

00:01:18:01 - 00:01:21:06 Alison: So what do you attribute Spin Master's global growth and success to?

00:01:22:08 - 00:01:41:11 Jeremy: Yeah, it's a great legacy, right? And if you think about our humble beginnings, starting with the Earth Buddy, with our founders, it was just a relentless passion of really understanding the magic of play and making these incredible experiences and finding an audience for them. And the great thing that unites the world, of course, is our children, but also how we play.

00:01:41:21 - 00:02:08:11 Jeremy: And that might take different forms and different preferences around the world, but really, really understanding it and getting really close to the consumer, and what makes a kid, or a parent with the kid, excited to play. What that has enabled us to do is to create a footprint all around the world, first with our products, then as we evolved as a company with the brands that we're building, and now the power of all three of what we call our creative centres to bring it to life.

00:02:08:11 - 00:02:33:14 Jeremy: So now we've got products with toys, we've got digital games, and those experiences, which is another form of play. And of course, what ignites imaginations in the experience is our entertainment division. And it was a very systematic build and we followed the consumer and that's enabled us to really deliver this promise of delivering incredible play experiences that reimagine play, which is universal.

00:02:33:20 - 00:02:48:18 Alison: Thanks Jeremy,that's a great, great place to start. Now, I know you have a personal history working in franchise marketing, and it's certainly been key to Spin Master's success and growth. Can you share some of the ways that Spin Master is leveraging franchising so successfully and with such staying power?

00:02:50:08 - 00:03:12:00 Jeremy: Sure. Well, maybe we should start by talking about our crown jewel, Paw Patrol, right? Paw Patrol is an incredible franchise and I've had the ability to work on many children's franchises from some of the biggest that you've mentioned in my background. But I will tell you that I've never seen anything like Paw Patrol and the reason I would say that is the longevity of this franchise.

00:03:12:07 - 00:03:35:16 Jeremy: It's the leading preschool franchise in the world and it's been that way, we celebrated ten years, our ten year anniversary, so ten years strong. And the amazing thing about that is, again, thinking about how Paw Patrol works and operates and what we do to build it and strengthen it with our fans all around the world. Of course, you would say as a toy company it starts with the toys.

00:03:36:00 - 00:04:00:13 Jeremy: That's true. But it really starts with the consumers and it starts with the kids that are our fans, our core 4 to 6 year olds and of course, the parents that buy the product for them and really bringing to life a singular purpose. It's the adventure that all kids see, puppies which they love, but the underlying current is really empowering little kids to do big things.

00:04:01:06 - 00:04:26:17 Jeremy: And then, of course, the secret sauce to what we do in building a franchise is when you've got a strategy like that or you've got a story arc like that, a brand like that, our superpower is bringing story to shelf. Because if you can imagine it and you can play in your mind with what the world of Adventure City is and how Chase and Marshall and Skye all work together to save the day,

00:04:27:07 - 00:04:54:00 Jeremy: how do you now bring the products forward that actually deliver on that and capture the imagination of kids and parents so that they can play and live out those experiences? And that is really the thing that we challenge ourselves on from a franchise perspective, continually looking to where the kids are going around the world, looking at the themes that make them excited, that deliver that empowerment message and create the excitement and action, and have fun because this is about light.

00:04:54:13 - 00:05:13:04 Jeremy: And at the end of the day, that's what keeps us as a company up at night. It's just the relentless fanaticism of really understanding kids and moms all around the world. And as a marketer today, especially in the dynamic world of kids, which changes very quickly, you've got to stay on it. You got to stay close to the consumer.

00:05:13:13 - 00:05:23:18 Jeremy: Completely be fascinated with them and you guide your entire gamut of marketing, all the tools at your disposal, to really make sure you're delivering your message in multiple ways.

00:05:24:07 - 00:05:51:01 Alison: So Jeremy, building on what you shared, so kids can absolutely be fickle. And what's hot today won't be hot next week. Yet you're celebrating your 10th anniversary. So kudos, what a truly remarkable accomplishment. You also have a very unique global perspective on how kids are the same universally, but also if there are any differences. So I'd be curious to hear from your learning on Canadian kids and Canadian parents if you've noticed any differences.

00:05:51:16 - 00:06:15:08 Jeremy: Sure. Well, there's definitely some things that I would say resonate very powerfully with our Canadian audience. So if you look at our first Paw Patrol movie, for example, not the one that's currently in theatres, but the one previous, which really set the bar for what we want to do as an entertainment company. The first opening scene, if you would notice there are the pups saving a truck driver who is carrying maple syrup.

00:06:15:21 - 00:06:43:20 Jeremy: And it was a little nod to our fans because we actually produce all this content, this wonderful, beautiful content here in Canada, out of our Spin Master entertainment studios, led by Jen Dodge. It's a very important part of pride for the company with an incredibly talented studio model that we have. It really bring these stories to life. When we actually market the products, we empower our regional marketing teams to deliver their marketing plans, bespoke whatever market they're at.

00:06:44:15 - 00:07:13:10 Jeremy: It's a very, very important thing. But when you think about a global franchise. So yes, as a franchise leader, we'll set the strategy, We'll talk about the big themes. What are the big bets, working with our toy team, our entertainment team. But when it comes down to execution, we want to empower our local marketers. We have a Canadian market leader, US market leader, all around the globe market leaders, to build their budgets, choose their media mix and update, localize their messaging to be right for their audience.

00:07:14:02 - 00:07:34:06 Jeremy: And that's a very important thing for a global marketing organization. You have to have a global vision - where are we going to the franchise and how are we going to continue to make it grow and be healthy. But you have to open up and be open-handed to allow your experts to really shine in the markets that they live and operate in.

00:07:34:22 - 00:08:00:15  Jeremy: And I think that that's what makes Paw Patrol uniquely feel, you know, it's relevant in our Canadian stores that we have. So, yes, we have big box retailers, the same as the United States, but we also have some retailers here that are very important, they're very unique to Canada. And between our sales force and our local marketing team, we want to make sure that that experience of Paw Patrol really fits that commercial space when the consumer comes in.

00:08:01:06 - 00:08:15:02 Alison: I love that you chose maple syrup as the kiss and thank you to Canadians -  very appropriate. Jeremy, when you and I met previously, you mentioned launching a new franchise. So what lessons are you going to take from the phenomenal success of Paw Patrol as you launch Unicorn Academy?

00:08:16:14 - 00:08:36:16 Jeremy: Alison That's a great question. So to answer that, I have to answer in two ways. There's what will we take, the tenets, and what do we have to do differently because the world is so different now than it was ten years ago. So for Unicorn Academy, we're launching us on Netflix and we're investing in it from a company perspective to bring to life new stories

00:08:36:22 - 00:09:06:17 Jeremy: Off of a beloved book series. But we're reimagining it for modern day girls. So core to this, number one, all the way back to when I originally started with, is really understanding the consumer - girls. But what we found as we explored that was there are themes for girls that matter for this generation of girls. Friendship, bonding, having a place, the school dynamics and experience.

00:09:06:17 - 00:09:29:05 Jeremy: All of these things are very, very much top of mind and are played out in the content they consume and what they do and what they talk about. And so you say, okay, how can we bring those insights into the world of storytelling? And then you have to let the storytellers do their job. And what we learned was you've got to create attachment to the characters.

00:09:29:09 - 00:09:58:05 Jeremy: You've got to not only attach to the characters in this particular series, but each character bonds with a unicorn. But girls identify with these different archetypes, and they like that social dynamic in the challenges, and you needed to dial up the stakes a little bit more because we've learned with Paw Patrol, if you look at ten years ago to today, it's gotten a little bit more on the adventure space, making sure that we, you know, kids today want a little bit more oomph.

00:09:58:18 - 00:10:22:04 Jeremy: They get the impact of superhero movies. Think about the impact of media. So it's still very, very much targeted for preschoolers and safe. But the action is dialed up a little bit and the humour is dialed up a little bit to reflect the culture. We applied the same principles to Unicorn Academy. We upped the game on the animation. We upped the game on the music and the visual storytelling and the arcs that go with it.

00:10:22:15 - 00:10:39:23 Jeremy: And we sequenced it in a way that you've got a launch of a movie, and then the series will actually continue to play out. It's a modern approach to engaging the consumer, but again, you've got to stay on it. I think if there's one message with kids, it's whatever we're doing right now may be different from what we're doing six months from now. There'll be a core thread, a play, but we've got to continue to push ourselves to think and act and behave like children, which requires us to play ourselves.  Alison: That doesn't sound like a bad job description actually. Jeremy: And yeah, you know, we have a lot of fun around here, so it's great.

00:10:57:17 - 00:11:26:00 Alison: Now you called out some very important themes, and as you were talking about how very different young girls are, those different ages. I know every parent of a young daughter that's listening was smiling and certainly relating. Having gone through the challenge we as a society did over the last three years, did you see any of those themes either soften or become even more important coming out of the isolation of the pandemic?

00:11:26:00 - 00:11:26:11 Jeremy: You know what, the

00:11:26:11 - 00:12:00:14 Jeremy: pandemic actually taught us a few things. If you look at the industry and you look at the styles of the industry, when everybody was hunkered down for COVID, the toy industry started to really have a rebirth. Certain segments really flourished, like boardgames. But toys overall really started to resonate because we're all home together. And I think what it did for parents in particular, and I will even say maybe one step further for dads, we brought us back in,

00:12:00:14 - 00:12:21:17 Jeremy: it brought us back into the world of play. It taught us as adults, the power of play again and how to play. And you know, what's interesting is that co-play, while still not as big as kids playing on their own, right, let's be let's be really honest. Kids playing on their own, they're going to play. But the co-play still had some stick-to-it-iveness.

00:12:22:14 - 00:12:49:12 Jeremy: Parents started to change and modify their behaviour and realize the joy it brought them to interact and play alongside their kids. Parents are worried about social emotional learning. They're worried about their kids interacting with other kids, how they catch back up on their education, how they play and have resilience and grit to get through and kind of move forward and leave, you know, the challenges of COVID

00:12:49:12 - 00:13:13:08 Jeremy: And the post-COVID world behind. They won't articulate that. And it's not maybe expressing itself all the way down in sales right now, but it's a theme that's bubbling, and they're looking for solutions and they're looking for opportunities even when they don't directly express it to help with that. And the great thing about that is, overall, the balm for that is play.

00:13:13:08 - 00:13:42:02 Jeremy: And so it sets us up again in this really unique space to say, let's talk about our role in society, let's talk about what Spin Master brings to the table, and then we will let the consumer opt into our entire portfolio and I think parents are starting to link the power of play with imagination, with problem solving, with grit, you know, with different things, with just hope and optimism, which is one of the things that parents want most for their kids right now.

00:13:42:02 - 00:14:04:12 Jeremy: So it gives me a lot of excitement, a lot of pride about what Spin Master is doing and our impact on the world here from Canada out. Yes, we are a business. Yes, we sell toys and you know, we're for profit. But the reality is we're doing good by really captivating imaginations and bringing people back to play. And we're going to keep doing that.

00:14:04:12 - 00:14:16:19 Jeremy: And we've got more things coming. You've seen some some announcements this week. We got Unicorn Academy, the Paw movie. I mean, the deck is stacked and the team is on it and we're just really, really, really excited about the road ahead.

00:14:17:02 - 00:14:44:11 Alison: That's great. Thank you, Jeremy. Now, any marketer and certainly this would be true of you, are really focused on understanding how the marketing we're doing is going to succeed, tracking and determining what will ultimately be successful and learning along the way. So you've got wonderful examples of great success with your different franchises. Can you share a bit about how you do track and determine what you hope will be successful?

00:14:44:11 - 00:15:02:22 Jeremy: I think, you know, again, I'll give you a frame of reference for this. If you think about my career in the different places I have been, I'm a nontraditional brand marketer that I've gone through many different verticals, whether it's entertainment, CPG, automotive, fitness, and here back to toy, which is the love of my life. For those marketers that are listening,

00:15:02:23 - 00:15:30:10 Jeremy: when you think about traditional consumer packaged goods, CPG, toy is a little different from that. CPG, we are trained on how to manage a business, soup to nuts. Look at the PNL, understand your distribution, your velocity, the key buy, windows, a season out. Fill the blank. You can hear me go down it. You know and you manage a portfolio and a product line and you might have ten SKUs of one set, five SKUs of another flavour, whatever that may be.

00:15:30:17 - 00:15:57:10 Jeremy: But overall, you're managing that on a multi-annual basis with some news and innovation spiking the water. Within Spin Master, especially with our DNA as innovators, we are always bringing news to market and our lines reset every year, every season, so it creates a different dynamic that brings us closer to fashion in a way, retail in a way, than it does in a consumer packaged goods type of way.

00:15:57:10 - 00:16:17:05 Jeremy: So yes, we're applying brand management and franchise management principles to what we're doing, but we've got to stay nimble at that. So, big set up for your very simple question. What that means is that we have to actually be very, very much on the pulse of where the consumer is going, and we do that through the insights that I talked about.

00:16:17:15 - 00:16:35:11 Jeremy: We do that through the expertise of the talented men and women who lead the company, veterans of the toy industry, veterans of the entertainment industry and the digital gains industry. They know this space. They love it, and they have been experts at it for a long time. But they challenge, we challenge ourselves to use current data to get ahead of it.

00:16:36:00 - 00:16:56:17 Jeremy: Then we hunker down. And what I mean by that is - best laid plans. You called it out a little bit earlier in the podcast. We can do the best we can do and have all the data. But when it comes to kids, you just don't now. So you've got to be ready to move as fast as they and Q4 is all about the holidays.

00:16:57:02 - 00:17:20:16 Jeremy: This is it. This is our Super Bowl, this game time, right? And so what we do is we create a warrior across company and we look at every week all of our sales our retail performance, consumer sentiment, marketing performance, the lift that we're getting, how we're driving pull through, what's hot, what's not. And we have to make decisions on how we actually play the portfolio.

00:17:20:16 - 00:17:39:07 Jeremy: And again, being a global company, it's not a one size fits all because there are things that in Europe are working very well right now and things that are here are not working as well. And you have to really localize that going back to the empowerment of our teams, to make the right business decisions in the markets in which we operate.

00:17:39:07 - 00:17:51:04 Jeremy: So very, very complicated high seasonality, you have to be very agile and you have to not be precious because we have to take all those signals into account to make the right decisions.

00:17:51:17 - 00:18:11:11 Alison: So I love that you tell marketers not to be precious and get so caught up in what we thought was going to work. And agility is mission critical, especially as you're in the quarter that will define success in many ways for the year for you. You're also a global organization and with some pretty significant interdependencies with your retail partners and others.

00:18:11:19 - 00:18:16:01 Alison: So I'd love to hear how you're able to be as agile as you're able to be.

00:18:16:08 - 00:18:57:05 Jeremy: The agility for us is Spin Master number one is part of our DNA. I think we are an entrepreneurial company. We have been an entrepreneurial company since founders were here, including the DNA that we have with our CEO and the executive team that's here with me. Number one, that's a mindset. So that helps us be agile. I think number two, it's continuing to challenge ourselves as we continue to grow and expand as a public and global organization on how to play that role, because this is the scale we're at right now, but maintain the agility and the empowerment that we need in the local markets to deliver the business results and driving the accountability there too.

00:18:57:22 - 00:19:19:09 Alison: That's outstanding advice and the clarity of understanding, everyone understanding the mission and the mandate and then being able to delegate that autonomy and accountability to the different teams is such a powerful combination. Now, Jeremy, as you're developing new products, to what degree are you developing a product specifically for a girl or a boy?

00:19:19:19 - 00:19:40:22 Jeremy: So first and foremost, we look for the play experience and we look for the properties or brands that would actually bring that to life. In the past, historically in the industry, it has been very gender split and traditionally it will land on gender lines. But we challenge ourselves to think about play capital P play. That's the first thing that leads us out.

00:19:41:13 - 00:19:53:17 Jeremy: And when we do it that way, it really allows us to focus on the experience and what's best. And does that take on something that skews gender One way or another? The consumer will lead us there and we will follow.

00:19:55:01 - 00:20:15:19 Alison: Now, you mentioned earlier we're in the crucial Q4 holiday sales period. That's certainly crucial for many retailers and absolutely mission critical for the toy industry. We're also facing certainly a more challenging economy. So can you share some of the trends that you're seeing and how spin Masters adopting this year's Q4 approach to make the most of the holiday buying season?

00:20:15:19 - 00:20:48:06 Jeremy: So I think, you know, number one, as I spoke about previously, we are really focused on being together and being super aligned real time on the performance in the market through our processes, in our war rooms and what we do so that we can enable ourselves to work discussions and make quick decision. But when we look at the consumer and how we planned the back half of this year versus previous years coming out of COVID, there was from an industry perspective, a demand that kind of pushed the whole industry out.

00:20:48:23 - 00:21:21:23 Jeremy: There is also not just for toy, but across the world. I've heard about you remember the inventory supply issues and how that kind of all played out. We don't have those factors anymore, right. But also during COVID because of what was happening in the different shutdowns around the world, there wasn't a lot of news across the industry. And the toy category mature is like fashion news drives, sales and what we're very excited about coming into this year and what we planned for is we've got some great innovation that we're bringing to market across all of our line.

00:21:22:19 - 00:21:40:06 Jeremy: We are looking at how we actually refresh the line and bring this news and excitement to the category, right? So we've got that going for us. We've looked at the price point. We want to make sure that we've got good price thinking that we're in line with where the consumer's going as the economy kind of rattles and as consumer confidence around the kind of shakes.

00:21:41:05 - 00:22:07:09 Jeremy: But the other thing that I would say is very interesting to dynamics across categories, with the exception maybe of one beauty, all categories or maybe disposable income in retail right now are a little challenged. That doesn't mean Christmas isn't going to count parents and shoppers or shopping behavior perspective or timing it a little closer to the holidays. We've seen this happen historically in recessions.

00:22:07:09 - 00:22:30:03 Jeremy: We've seen this happen historically over previous years. So what that means for us is we with our retailers, have to create confidence around those key shopping moments. So it creates a very interesting dynamic that's that's unsettling for sure. But something that we can plan for and try to manage as best we can. The last thing I would say, yes, I told you, there are a couple things are all different.

00:22:30:16 - 00:22:56:20 Jeremy: Yes, parents pocketbooks are challenged and they're going to think more carefully and more considered about what their children want. But there's also a secret weapon of the holidays. I've said it. I'll say it again. Grandparents will say Christmas because their relationship grew. COVID coming out of this, and especially this generation of parents, they're closer to their parents and the role of grandparents is taking an interesting turn.

00:22:56:21 - 00:23:41:12 Jeremy: And these consumers, the grandparents, are not impacted from a discretionary income and spend perspective the same as grandparents, and they are more likely to spend on their kids and their grandkids than previous generations and spend more. So if you think about that, it created an interesting opportunity for us that we've never done before at scale, and we have market by market candidate included U.S. all around the world, targeted campaigns not only to parents but also to grandparents around the holidays to make sure that they understand the incredible toys that we offer and encourage them to put one of those or two of those into their basket as they choose their list for the holidays.

00:23:41:12 - 00:23:48:19 Alison: Thanks, Jeremy. That brings a whole new sentiment to Senior Power. And I'll definitely be hugging grandparents, as I'm sure many retailers will this quarter.

00:23:49:12 - 00:23:52:14 Jeremy: Grandparents will say Christmas. It's going to be phenomenal.

00:23:54:03 - 00:24:12:12 Alison: The journey. I had absolutely no doubt that toy marketing was going to be a fascinating conversation. And you shared great advice that's relevant to marketers across many different sectors. So I thank you very much for that. I would love to end by having you share a parting thought or advice that you have for our listeners.

00:24:12:12 - 00:24:34:19 Jeremy: Yeah, I think that some of the best advice I ever received was get yourself as close to the consumer as you possibly and as you continue to grow in your career as a marketer and as an executive, It's very easy to get isolated and get out of touch with the very men and women that you want to create.

00:24:34:19 - 00:25:04:21 Jeremy: Incredible experiences, foreign trips, man lit the brand and get out there and do it. When I was at PepsiCo, although as a cook drinker before I drink Pepsi and I went and understood the retail environment and what was going on there. And yes, I went to the Paw Patrol mirror, not the big corporate premier. I took it, sat in a theater in the back row with me and my chief people officer, and we just watched and listened and laughed and saw what kids laughed at and slapped out and just stayed curious.

00:25:05:10 - 00:25:27:00 Jeremy: So to stay alive as a marketer today, how to get as close to the consumer as Yeah, you got to be passionate about that. And the last thing within that, the undercurrent curiosity, you got to build that yourself. You got to be curious about the why and the 2 to 3 level down wise about why people do what they do.

00:25:27:10 - 00:25:51:23 Jeremy: You know, these types of questions help you understand how to really understand it and really drive the domain. And in the preference of your product is that's what it is, right? You want to build brand. We want to build what we want to build protection from the competition. We want to build demand. We want to drive growth. And if you don't understand the consumer and you're not close to them, just reading the data, what's on the page is not going to get you there.

00:25:52:01 - 00:25:53:00 Jeremy: You got to go with it.

00:25:53:17 - 00:26:19:02 Alison: Absolutely outstanding advice on that. My greatest insights when I've been in marketing and CMO roles was what I learned unexpectedly by walking a store floor, calling in, patching into a call center and at firsthand customer learning and experience is absolutely invaluable. So tremendous words of wisdom With that Jeremy, I want to thank you again. I know, especially in your busiest quarter, I really appreciate you taking the time for this conversation.

00:26:19:02 - 00:26:22:17 Alison: And I know our listeners join me in thanking you for the great advice you share.

00:26:24:08 - 00:26:33:20 Jeremy: Thank you, Alison. I really appreciate the time and enjoyed our conversation and wishing it right out there as it comes. Have a happy holiday and stay safe.

00:26:34:05 - 00:26:36:18 Alison: Thanks, Jeremy.

00:26:39:01 - 00:26:53:13 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit thecma.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

Join the CEO of CMA, Alison Simpson, as she teams up with Scott Pinkney, the SVP and Executive Creative Director at Publicis Hawkeye Canada, for an exhilarating dive into generative AI's impact on the creative process.

0000:02:16 - 00:00:21:00

Speaker 1

Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:20 - 00:00:42:27

Alison:

Today on CMA Connect, we're talking about AI from a creative angle. Every week brings many new AI tools, including many that are really focused on creative on production. So it's not all that surprising that marketers are increasingly looking to their agency partners and creative teams to understand both the benefits and some of the challenges and most importantly, how best to leverage AI.

00:00:43:28 - 00:01:03:10

Alison:

So today I'm joined by Scott Pinkney, a leading creative strategist, brand ambassador and relationship marketer. Scott's held senior creative roles in New York, the UK and Toronto. He's the SVP and executive creative director at Publicis Hawkeye Canada, which is a customer engagement agency. Thanks so much for joining us on CMA Connect today, Scott.

00:01:04:21 - 00:01:18:00

Scott:

Thank you, Alison. Excited to be here. It's an incredible topic, it's an exciting topic. It's one that's having a lot of discussions both in the boardrooms and, as you can imagine, in the creative departments of a lot of agencies.

00:01:18:17 - 00:01:35:22

Alison:

Absolutely. Well, you're definitely known as a creative powerhouse in the marketing profession. And you're also a very much an early adopter of new approaches and technological tools. So can you share with us a bit about when and how your team began using AI tools and how your use of them may have evolved or expanded?

00:01:36:29 - 00:01:57:11

Scott:

Yeah, definitely. Well, first of all, I think it's important to know that I'm not a technical guy. I do consider myself an early adopter because when new technology comes, I can usually see it pretty clearly. I can see the opportunities and I get really excited. The beautiful thing is I have all those technical minds back at the agency and those data gurus who just really know how to make it happen.

00:01:57:11 - 00:02:16:13

Scott:

So I get excited. I'm like, Oh, we can do this, we can do that. I'm like, Well, how do we do it? So definitely excited about what's happening in the world of AI. I think we all know that it's here. It's going to change the way we do everything. It is impacting every aspect of our lives, both at home and also from a business standpoint.

00:02:16:25 - 00:02:29:29

Scott:

But interesting enough, what really excites me as a creative person is what I call and I think we all call the game changer, which is really kind of generative AI And really how it's being integrated into the creative process, which is pretty thrilling.

00:02:30:18 - 00:02:45:20

Alison:

That's such a great point, generative AI, as we're hearing so much about that now and it's fairly new, but itself has been around for a very long time. So why don't we take a quick pause and have you share the different types of AI? Because I know you've been an early adopter, long before generative AI as well.

00:02:46:18 - 00:03:06:01

Scott:

Well, thank you very much. And I think it is really important if you think about, you know, AI and machine learning has really been part of our lives for years, right? When you're shopping online, using Google Maps, searching the Internet on your phone, even ordering food, right. Like AI is always working behind the scenes. And it's been around for generations. You know, as I mentioned then, you know, enter generative AI, right?

00:03:06:01 - 00:03:25:22

Scott:

And wow, that's what's really, really amazing. And interesting enough, I did a presentation when they came back from Cannes, judging the creative data category, and I thought it was really important to kind of level set with my team. So I'll kind of do a really kind of really quick, quick recap. Funny. Nope. I thought, you know, I'm going to ask ChatGPT to give me the definition and the first definition.

00:03:25:22 - 00:03:49:23

Scott:

I had no idea what it was talking about. So I said, You know what? Give me the definition. But as if you're talking to a grade school student and now this is what I got back, and I thought it was really, really important and clarified the differences. So let's talk first about artificial intelligence. And basically what it said is AI is like giving superpowers to a robot so that it can think, learn and solve problems almost like humans do.

00:03:50:07 - 00:04:11:18

Scott:

This robot can talk like you, understand pictures and even make decisions. That's why it's been around for a long time. Then you move into machine learning. This was a definition for machine learning. So machine learning is a special skill we teach to the robot. Instead of telling exactly what to do, we show lots of examples and let it figure things out on its own.

00:04:12:07 - 00:04:31:02

Scott:

It's like teaching a dog new tricks by showing it how to do that. So think about machine learning, especially in my space of 1 to 1 relationship marketing, trigger based marketing. If the consumer, you know, if then else, if the consumer does this, serve up this, that's what machine learning is. You know again as you mentioned, thank you very much, we are a center of excellence for CRM.

00:04:31:09 - 00:04:55:21

Scott:

So that's been kind of part of our lives for a long time, kind of doing the hard work behind the scenes. So when you think about platforms like Salesforce and Braze, those learnings have already been built in. But now the big difference is, is generative AI and that's really where it kind of gets exciting because we're now seeing that come not only into play in the platforms that we're using to communicate with consumers, but even the creative process itself.

00:04:55:21 - 00:05:13:25

Scott:

So from a general AI sampling, and if we just pivot there for a minute, it's here. And, you know, it's a bit scary for creatives, you know, you know, whether you like it or not, it's going to impact how we work, how we communicate. So, you know, finding the right balance between humans and robots is going to be our challenge.

00:05:13:25 - 00:05:39:06

Scott:

And we are already bringing it into our lives, you know, ChatGPT, Dolly, Midjourney. These are all early out the gate and communicators and creators are already using it and the stuff they are creating is absolutely amazing. You know, I heard  a speaker at Cannes and he said that science fiction is now reality. So, you know, you think about those old science fiction movies and you're like, how's that ever going to happen?

00:05:39:15 - 00:06:05:11

Scott:

Well, generative AI is now allowing whatever we can think of, can now be created. So we're bringing it in to the agency. We're using it in different areas. I mean, and there is also this this wonderful thought around creative interplay, right? The magic of the interplay between AI and human creativity. And again, you know, for a lot of creatives, this is challenging.

00:06:05:11 - 00:06:34:10

Scott:

And it's there's this feeling that I'm losing my ability to be creative. It's writing copy, it's generating imagery. And that is kind of a daunting thought. But the reality is, if we can find the way to really marry true creativity with what technology can do, great ideas are being invented and coming off of Cannes. We'll talk about that a bit later I hope, is wow, the work being done is like you can think it, you can now create it.

00:06:34:10 - 00:06:49:28

Alison:

And you're so right in calling out that it is daunting for creatives, for marketers, for business people overall. So how have you gotten comfortable with that and helped your team get comfortable with seeing that opportunity and getting over some of the intimidation and daunting nature of it?

00:06:51:15 - 00:07:17:09

Scott:

It's still ongoing. You know, different conversations with different individuals. There's actually a really interesting quote, i just wanted to share it because I loved it when I heard it. And the one thing I have been doing. As I mentioned, I'm not a technology guy, but I am reading every article I can around AI and different perspectives, so that I can really inspire my team. You know, as a creative lead, my job is to inspire, is  to inspire my teams to do better thinking, to work with the strategy teams.

00:07:17:22 - 00:07:33:06

Scott:

And even when new tools like this come in is how do we best use it and implement it? So this quote was great because I heard it and it's something that I'm trying to instill with my creatives, which is, it was by, I'm not sure I'm pronouncing his name right but it was James Magda. And he was talking about how AI and creativity kind of come together.

00:07:33:06 - 00:07:53:08

Scott:

And he said creative people thrive in times of change. They're often the first to try new things, reinvent the rules, push the boundaries and expand possibilities for everyone. Well, that's kind of the positive side. But then he went on to say to anyone who is curious but cautious, which I think a lot of people are, you've just got to get started.

00:07:53:13 - 00:08:17:21

Scott:

And that's what I keep telling everybody, you have to play with the tools, get in there, play around with Midjourney, get into ChatGPT, in fact just start using it in your daily life. How to put together a meal for a family, like start using it in ways where you don't think it oversteps into true creativity that we put in front of clients, but that it aids us in creative development.

00:08:18:13 - 00:08:32:08

Alison:

That's great advice, Scott. Thank you. Now, AI can certainly help marketing teams leverage data in real time and improve efficiencies and the results of marketing operations. Are you using it to analyze your own data or customer interactions that then feed the AI engine?

00:08:33:15 - 00:08:52:24

Scott:

Yeah, I mean, the personal answer is absolutely. I mean, if you think about CRM, it's always about creating, you know, meaningful relationships with consumers, right time, right message to kind of, you know, drive the desired action. We've always relied on data. Data is our secret weapon. It's in our DNA. But to be successful, it's always about crunching data.

00:08:53:14 - 00:09:17:18

Scott:

It's always about analyzing data. It's always about getting the right data to the right place at the right time. So AI is helping us do that in a much faster away. You know, as we talked about a bit earlier, machine learning and traditional AI was already built in some of the platforms we're using. But the speed in which we're able to get insights, the speed in which we're able to analyze data and put it into action, that's what's really exciting.

00:09:17:28 - 00:09:37:10

Scott:

And I'm sure you've all heard the new phrase generative CRM, right? It's that new, you know, it's promising to revolutionize how we interact and engage with consumers. Right. Its ability to generate content in real time. Right. A consumer does a particular thing. They say a particular thing about a particular product. And then we're used to ads being served up when we look it up.

00:09:37:10 - 00:09:56:12

Scott:

And now it's going a bit further than that. It's talking to you about their product, it's responding to queries you made. Chatbot, right, they're going to get more sophisticated. So we're starting to leverage all of these different tools and across different clients where as you can imagine, different clients are at different stages of their kind of data maturity.

00:09:56:12 - 00:10:16:01

Scott:

So the ones that are really advanced, we're really activating it right away. For some of the newer clients who are investigating because again, this happened so fast, like the difference between when I was in Cannes in May, where every, every conversation started with, oh my goodness, are we going to lose our jobs? Here we now are in October and we are moving, we are adopting it.

00:10:16:01 - 00:10:34:22

Scott:

We are bringing it into play. And as they mentioned, it's it's part of discovery. It's part of research. It's part of targeting, it's part of measuring, it's part of media buying, it's coming in to the creative product, you know, how do we, how do we be more efficient with our writing pool? When does it make sense to lean on ChatGPT?

00:10:35:12 - 00:10:56:26

Scott:

When does it make sense to lean 100% on a human? So we're solving those things right now. We have a lot of use cases going on and we've been seeing a lot of success. But, you know, it's always you know, it's it's not flawless. Like we know, you know, there's there's a lot of brands that have made bad mistakes using generative AI that has backfired.

00:10:56:26 - 00:11:14:11

Scott:

So we need to be very cautious and we need to continue to be cautious and we need to test, learn and optimize. So I feel like we're still in the early days and we know that technology is only going to get more advanced. So, you know, we got to jump on that train because it's left the station and we're going to see where it takes us.

00:11:15:04 - 00:11:36:27

Alison:

And a willingness to experiment and know that some mistakes are going to happen. Life is not flawless, so it makes sense that something that's moving as quickly as generative AI the mistakes can happen at that faster speed as well. So just making sure that you're being, taking measured rest wherever possible and then learning as we go, that's we're all figuring out together in many ways.

00:11:37:12 - 00:11:51:10

Alison:

Now, you mentioned Cannes, you had a great time judging there and I'm sure you were exposed to AI infused work. Are there examples that we should all be looking to coming out of the judging at Cannes that really resonated for you?

00:11:52:08 - 00:12:11:29

Scott:

You know, that was such an amazing experience. That's my second time judging, actually, my second time at Cannes. And the first time was actually was the first year they did the Direct category, which was interesting. You know, fast forward now to 2023, I'm in the creative data category and the awarding jury and it was amazing. I think it was certainly eye opening.

00:12:11:29 - 00:12:31:17

Scott:

Like I knew that I was going to go in there and see, you know, incredible cases from the round the world using data. What I didn't expect is over 50% of the cases had machine learning and AI. Well, there's two cases that I definitely want to share with you, and I love the fact that you used the word infused.

00:12:31:20 - 00:13:01:22

Scott:

And that was certainly no exaggeration. It was literally infused in and brought to life. A lot of the work that was awarded that we fell in love with, that used machine learning, it amplified the idea. It allowed the brand to bring the idea to life. It wasn't the idea. Ideas are still formed by human thinking and ingenuity and understanding of the brand, and understanding of humans.

00:13:01:22 - 00:13:19:06

Scott:

But it supercharged the creative team and the agency to be able to deliver it. And the first one was the Stella Artois probability that actually was the Grand Prix for creative data. That was an easy one. It was a no brainer. It was created by Gut Buenos Aires and the campaign  was absolutely amazing. And I'll talk a bit about kind of what the idea was and then kind of how they used the data and were able to pull it all together.

00:13:19:23 - 00:13:50:04

Scott:

So, you know, one of the things is, Stella Artois, long long history. Based on their history and understanding of the brand, they concluded that there's a probability that the beer portrayed in historical art pieces throughout Europe like Manet, Van Gogh could have been a Stella Artois. Love that idea. So brilliant. So what they did was they superimposed on top of these beautiful fine art paintings, a percentage indicating the probability that the people in the picture were actually drinking Stella Artois.

00:13:50:19 - 00:14:14:02

Scott:

So how do they use it? How did they use AI and machine learning? The data points they used to create this campaign was amazing. And it was all based on an algorithm that analyzed the year the artwork was painted, its geographical location, the shape of the glass, which was just incredible that was being used. Even the color of the liquid inside the glass and then the distance between the artists and the original brewery.

00:14:14:09 - 00:14:34:16

Scott:

This was an integrated campaign. They pulled it together in such a beautiful way. The percentages of probability were from like 22% to 70. They were never 100. They didn't claim it, but it was always, Hey, it's a probability. Doesn't matter. They owned it. But what a great example of that idea wasn't generated by AI. It was powered by AI. It made it possible.

00:14:35:00 - 00:15:01:23

Scott:

Could they have pulled this off on their own? Probably, but it would have taken crazy amounts of time and resources to do what AI was able to do. So that was the first campaign that we fell in love with. I'm going to show you another Grand Prix, share with you another Grand Prix, which was in the creative effects, this was also using generative AI and you know in such a unique and special way with Shah Rukh Khan.

00:15:02:01 - 00:15:23:04

Scott:

The ad was done by Cadbury by Ogilvy. And I love the problem and they did have a real problem, right, coming off the pandemic. It was really crippling to the economy. But who was really feeling it was small businesses. So in this case, big brands, you know, obviously way deeper pockets. They were equipped to fight back. But the local businesses, small stores, they didn't have the luxury.

00:15:23:21 - 00:15:51:22

Scott:

So they use Shah Rukh Khan, who is the biggest Bollywood star. And he actually became the brand ambassador for thousands of small local neighborhood stores. Well how did they do it? Enter generative AI. They actually created a hyper personalized digital avatar, of Shah Rukh Khan, by regenerating his face, which is data, his voice which is data and would replace the store names in every single ad. Hyper data driven personalization.

00:15:51:22 - 00:16:12:15

Scott:

So you can imagine you're now a small store owner and Shah Rukh Khan is selling it. He becomes the ambassador for your ad and they even took it further. They actually knew they couldn't do it for every store. So they created a platform that allowed small business owners to go in and change and put their names in there and have Shah Rukh Khan basically promote their store.

00:16:12:15 - 00:16:30:24

Scott:

We thought it was obviously brilliant, but AI, the generative AI, oh my goodness, it was flawless. It was beautiful. It was fun, it was engaging. And again, another great example of an amazing idea powered by AI, generative AI, but not created by generative AI.

00:16:31:24 - 00:16:49:06

Alison:

Those are both such powerful examples and to your point, they come out of an amazing idea generated by a human and then they're scaled and brought to life with a speed and a beauty that would be hard to replicate without the technology. So thank you for sharing. Those are both terrific examples.

00:16:49:23 - 00:17:08:09

Scott:

You know, I came back and I did a show and tell and I showed about eight or nine different campaigns because you need to see the possibilities, because the possibilities are very different and very unique. And until you really look at the work and understand it and actually ask yourself, how do they make that? That's a great exercise we're doing.

00:17:09:00 - 00:17:23:15

Scott:

Look at these campaigns and ask yourself, if we were doing that, how would we as an agency create that? Because you never see totally behind the curtain. Once you do that, it starts to unearth other opportunities that you can bring to your different brands.

00:17:24:10 - 00:17:48:10

Alison:

Great point. When you think about earlier conversation around it can be quite daunting, but when you look at generative AI as an enabler, if a creative team comes up with a spectacular idea that we simply cannot afford, now generative I might make it feasible and affordable, so it can absolutely can go from being daunting to quite inspiring when it's viewed as a tool in those ways.

00:17:49:09 - 00:18:11:22

Scott:

And Alison, that is such a great word, enabler, and that's one of the things I've been doing. I'm trying to find like enabler. You know, I heard the phrase co-pilot, right? Your partner, you know, your partner to help you get unstuck. You see it that way, then you start focusing on, wow, what can I do? Yeah, that's when it gets exciting for creatives.

00:18:12:12 - 00:18:14:01

Scott:

Not what am I not doing?

00:18:15:11 - 00:18:23:19

Alison:

So building on that, I'd love to hear from your vantage point, what excites you the most about the continued development of AI?

00:18:23:19 - 00:18:39:08

Scott:

You know, listen, there's no question that AI is going to have a huge impact on our lives. I mentioned this earlier. It's not only at home but at work. And because we're trying to bring those two worlds together, we need to really think about how it's going to impact us everywhere and it's only going to increase.

00:18:39:13 - 00:19:02:19

Scott:

Like we know the technology there's, you know, there's issues, right?

We know there's massive bias with AI. We know that it's only trained on the data that's out there. We know that, unfortunately, there's a lot of bad data out there. There's a lot of back thinking and viewpoints. So we have to be very cautious, but you need to be excited about it, because, you know, it was funny,

00:19:02:19 - 00:19:22:10

Scott:

I was, you know, Googling around, you know, what other innovation had the same impact as AI and there's not really anything. The computer was the closest, and listen, without giving you how long,I mean, I've been in the business for 35 years, but I was here before there were computers. I remember when that box came on my desk and I was like, What do I do with this?

00:19:22:10 - 00:19:39:03

Scott:

Because I love being hands on. I love to open up a Pantone book and lay out the chips, and  arriving at the press, and you had no idea what it was going to look like until you got there. So you had to really use your brain and your creativity to be able to visualize something. Then the computer came and now I could play with colors.

00:19:39:03 - 00:19:58:02

Scott:

I can see it in print going to the printers, like, well, it's just like, you know, the proof I have. So I think with this new technology, you have to really try to look forward and go, I can create anything I want now. Like, I can bring any idea I have to life. Again, you need the right people.

00:19:58:02 - 00:20:12:20

Scott:

That's a big one having you know, you have the right technology. You have to have the right people. You have to have the right operations. You have to figure out how to get into your workflow. So, you know, we're still sorting all that stuff. But as we've seen, as we also look at the work from Cannes, it's happening, right?

00:20:13:08 - 00:20:37:14

Scott:

But again, the ideas are always at the core of true creativity and nobody excels better at  that than humans. So, you know, we need these tools. They can definitely supercharge everything that we're doing. And, you know, we need to be willing to experiment, you know, new approaches of every part of the workflow. We just have to keep educating and we have to keep talking about it and we need to keep sharing the work.

00:20:37:24 - 00:20:42:12

Scott:

But more importantly, we just need to get in that sandbox and start playing around.

00:20:43:05 - 00:20:56:18

Alison:

You're so right. And we talked earlier about the risks. So any new change comes with inherent risks as well and concerns. So I'd love to hear what concerns you the most about the continued development of AI.

00:20:58:13 - 00:21:32:10

Scott:

You know, it's interesting, one of the things, you know, we always talked about this phrase data wins arguments. The problem now is data only wins arguments if it's the right data and that's the piece that is probably, is the most concerning. You know, you hear everyone talking about AI is going to end... there's a lot of negative conversations, and unfortunately, the bad side of humanity of what AI can do if in the wrong hands.

00:21:32:22 - 00:22:21:21

Scott:

So as brands, as marketers, our job is to make sure that we're always putting truth in front of our consumers, to use data in the right way. So why we have privacy, you know, why we have regulations, so we're going to have to just make sure that we always do our homework. I think there was you know, AI gone wrong examples right now, brands that, ooh, they just got something wrong so we just have to make sure that we are truly recognizing that it's still just a robot, and it has flaws.So we as humans, as creators, as strategists, have to really, really do our due diligence to make sure that the data is accurate and truthful and honest.

00:22:23:09 - 00:22:35:03

Alison:

And the technology also has a bias because it's the data it's drawing from. So that's another area that we as marketers really need to pay attention and be sensitive to as well.

00:22:35:22 - 00:22:56:07

Scott:

Yeah, for sure. There's a couple of case studies at Cannes where they were trying to change the internet where it was blatantly wrong, right? And so there's a lot of retraining going on where we're trying to upload all the correct information to try to change the Internet. But as much as we're trying to change the Internet, there's always bad stuff going in.

00:22:56:19 - 00:23:14:13

Scott:

So again, that goes back to checks and balances, like everything we do right. We still make mistakes as marketers with stuff. And yeah, we got work to do, work to do. But it's exciting. It's, it's, it's a really interesting time to be in, you know, advertising and marketing right now. It's only going to get more exciting, and more confusing.

00:23:15:09 - 00:23:23:20

Alison:

I completely agree with you. Now, Scott, thank you so much for all your insights. Before I let you go today, though, I'd love you to leave our listeners with one final thought.

00:23:24:17 - 00:23:38:22

Scott:

So going back to this notion of, just get in the sandbox, start playing with the tools they are available, many are free. I'm sure your organization is already implementing into your work stream. Just start playing.

00:23:39:06 - 00:23:48:03

Alison:

Very, very wise words, Scott. Thank you so much. It's been a great discussion. I know our listeners have learned a lot from your experience and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

00:23:48:18 - 00:23:50:04

Scott:

You, too, Alison. Always a pleasure.

00:23:51:15 - 00:24:17:07

Alison:

We're just really starting to understand the potential and some of the challenges with generative AI and I'm absolutely excited for how the marketing profession will learn and progress together. And I know you share that enthusiasm. On that note, the CMA has some really terrific generative AI resources that marketers can benefit from that compliment this podcast. We offer a number of thought leadership articles on a wide range of AI topics on our Web site, and we've also launched a new series from our Industry AI Working Group.

00:24:18:01 - 00:24:39:00

Alison:

Plus, we've introduced a number of new AI training courses that are designed for marketers at all different career stages, and they're really helpful ways to understand how AI can make you a better and stronger marketer. So I'm certainly looking forward to all the ways that the CMA will help and to partner with our profession on the generative AI journey.

00:24:39:00 - 00:24:53:13

Speaker 1

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought, leadership, news and industry trends.

Alison Simpson, CEO of CMA, welcomes Luxy Thuraisingam, Vice President, Global SMB & Partner Marketing at Cisco,  to discuss the CMO's growing influence and gaining credibility in the C-Suite.

00:00:02:10 - 00:00:42:24

Welcome to CME Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.

Alison:

The role of the CMO has evolved vastly, dramatically and continues to both expand and at times contract. So while some CMO's have a mandate covering everything from product development, customer experience, data analytics and insights to marketing communications and PNL responsibilities, others are more singularly focused on marketing communications.

00:00:43:21 - 00:01:11:16

Alison:

Marketing professionals worked really hard to earn a seat at the C-suite table to take accountability for driving business results and for ownership of the four Ps and an end to end consumer experience. Today's aspiring marketers and future CMO's really want to learn how to gain credibility with the right stakeholders. They want to learn that from marketing pros for excelling at it, which is why I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined today by Luxy Thuraisingam, who's vice president, Global SMB and partner marketing for Cisco.

00:01:12:02 - 00:01:31:04

Alison:

Luxy, thanks so much for joining us on CMA Connect today.

Luxy:

Oh, Alison, it's such a privilege to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Alison:

Now, it's not really that long ago where the scope of the CMO in many organizations was quite narrow. So building on my opening remarks, I'd really love to hear your observations on how the roles expanded and where the CMO now has influence.

00:01:31:19 - 00:01:59:19

Luxy:

Firstly, this is such a meaty topic and I can't wait for us to unpack it. And you're right, it wasn't that long ago, right, that CMO's were mostly actually brought in to drive and execute on brand and communication strategy. And today, in an, actually an interesting study that was published by Boathouse, what I love is CEOs,  CEOs actually believe that the main role of the CMO is to grow the business.

00:02:00:06 - 00:02:25:02

Luxy:

But in fact, 86% of CEOs believe that that CMO can influence the C-suite. So to your point, the scope has increased. But here's why. Right? Because and you know this, CMO's need to be fierce advocates of the voice of the customer. We and their influencing strategic and long term decisions, everything from product design to go to market to innovation, across the organization, by the way.

00:02:25:15 - 00:02:53:15

Luxy:

Oh, and by the way, they also need to be able to connect marketing performance with organizational performance, including profit and loss. They have to drive diversity in thinking across the organization and so that the mission and everything the organization does is representative of the global population. And that's just the tip of the iceberg because in addition to all of this, so many CMO's are also accountable to co-owning revenue with the profiliation of eCommerce routes, especially in B.C. at companies.

00:02:53:16 - 00:03:15:18

Luxy:

So yeah, you're right, it's increased a little bit, the scope.

 Alison:

Just a little bit. So the evolution of marketing organizations is another really rich territory for discussion and clearly has an impact on CMOs marketing teams and the talent that we need today. So based on your own journey, I'd love you to share how you feel about how marketing organizations are different today than they were say, even five years ago.

00:03:15:19 - 00:03:39:03

Alison:

And what new skills are you looking for?

Luxy:

I always bring the marketing profession back to the customer and the reality is our customer's habits are completely different from ten, five, I mean, even two years ago, right? Our customer habits have changed and evolved. And so when you think about marketing being in the forefront of meeting the customer where they are, then absolutely.

00:03:39:03 - 00:03:58:22

Luxy:

You know, absolutely. What was great today is not going to be great tomorrow. And that actually means that marketers and the makeup of a marketing organization has to evolve. And a study by LinkedIn said 50% of the marketing jobs that are being posted are in the digital and media space. Now, to be honest, that's probably not that surprising.

00:03:59:00 - 00:04:25:14

Luxy:

 But in addition to that, and to the point on my own experience, my own teams, marketing teams now also include analysts, data scientists, martech gurus, working hand-in-hand with creative directors and copywriters. And so really, again, if we bring it back to the customer in order to forge these new paths to the customer and deliver the business impacts, our organizations are looking for us to do,

00:04:26:04 - 00:04:56:12

Luxy:

Marketing teams, in my opinion, are made up of scientists and storytellers.

Alison:

It's a great way to say it. And in many ways, when I think about the super power of CMO of marketers, it really is being the voice of customers and understanding them in ways that their colleagues across the business truly can't. And using that information and knowledge to inform and help our colleagues across all areas of the business, build new products, redesign their approach in a way that really will the customer first and foremost.

00:04:56:23 - 00:05:15:18

Luxy:

Well said. Absolutely.

Alison:

Now, one of the topics you talked about and touched on was the importance of data. And it's also often the fuel for everything that we do. But how we need to be using data has really changed. So I'd love to hear some examples of how you're using data to demonstrate how marketing is driving results for Cisco.

00:05:16:02 - 00:05:39:04

Luxy:

The utilization of data is also not new, right? You and I have been in this industry, this practice for a very long time. But what it's to your point on, how has the utilization of data changed? And to me, it's no longer about just using data to drive strategy or build a dashboard or even optimizing our marketing and activations and spend.

00:05:39:22 - 00:06:04:13

Luxy:

That's just a given. Every organization should be doing that. To me, and what I'm seeing is it's about using data and insights that drive tangible and demonstrable business results. It's about using data to show the power of marketing when done right. And so I'll give you a case study that we actually showcased on Main page at a recent Global Cisco sales rally.

00:06:05:07 - 00:06:33:12

Luxy:

We celebrated that Cisco sales teams closed a multi, multimillion dollar deal with a significant global brand. And what I loved is in that moment of celebration, the marketing organization was celebrated with sales. And the reason we were celebrated is we were able to demonstrate that as our amazing sales leaders are doing what they're incredibly good at behind the scenes,

00:06:34:06 - 00:07:09:22

Luxy:

marketing actually had 24,000, 24,000 touchpoints with this organization, this brand. We had almost over a hundred employees of varying personas from C-suite to I.T, engaging with marketing content, web pages, data sheet downloads, design guides, coming to events, coming to webinars. So behind the scenes, marketing was the wing person to sales in closing this deal. It was no longer about marketing, getting a lead and then passing the lead to sales and then hoping it'll close.

00:07:09:22 - 00:07:34:21

Luxy:

Right? That's the old way of doing it. It was about us hand in hand with sales, 24,000 touch points while sales was doing their job. We were in it with them. And what I love is we have loads of key studies like this.

Alison:

That's such a terrific example. And in many ways sales and marketing have always needed to work so closely together and should absolutely see each other as as partners and colleagues.

00:07:34:21 - 00:07:53:05

Alison:

But there is more often than not a healthy tension instead of collaboration. So it sounds like you and your team are making good progress on that. When you shared that at the sales conference, I'd love to hear how the sales team reacted.

Luxy:

Well, they applauded. I mean, this is why it was so incredible. It was marketing was celebrated. Marketing was celebrated in that moment.

00:07:53:13 - 00:08:22:04

Luxy:

And like I said, that was just a proof point. And of course, we're doing this regionally, country wise, looking at all of our big accounts and saying, how can we be the wing person in helping close that deal? That to me is the testament. That's the win, right?

Alison:

So I touched on this a bit earlier. But when I think about the potential superpower for a marketer is and what can really differentiate us from our colleagues and provide tremendous value across every aspect of a business, for me, it really comes down to the critically important role that we have as the voice of customers.

00:08:22:21 - 00:08:39:17

Alison:

In my experiences, what I've known the customer better than my colleagues, that really built credibility and enabled me to help them succeed in their roles by really deepening their understanding of who we wanted to reach and how we could do it. Now, Luxy, I definitely know you have a lot of heart for this topic too, and the many ways to approach it.

00:08:39:23 - 00:09:04:01

Luxy:

So I'd welcome your perspective. Thanks, Alison. And yes, we have talked about this in the past as well. There's this article that I read. This is one particular sentence that just really, really stuck with me. And the sentence was - at the heart of marketing is the consumer. The most complex entity that exists on planet Earth? The most complex, Right.

00:09:04:01 - 00:09:37:02

Luxy:

And so it's part of I mean, to be honest, it's one of the reasons I love my job, because it's hard and it's always changing. And to your point on the voice of the customer, absolutely right. Our job is ultimately to bring that voice of the customer into our organization so that we, the organization, is investing in the right product, the right service, the right offer, the right value prop, and even the right way to deliver the delivery of the product to our customer.

00:09:38:01 - 00:09:58:15

Luxy:

And by the way, we have to do all that and outcompete the competition. Right? And so I think that's also one of the reasons and again, we've we've also, even at the board level, asked and talked about the ever changing title of the CMO. And I know one of the titles that's either given or taken is the Chief Customer Officer right?

00:09:58:15 - 00:10:28:14

Luxy:

Because again, it is so incredibly important that we're bringing that voice. It is also why, if done right, which I fundamentally believe organizations are bringing the CMO and the marketing function to help lead organization transformation, because again, at the organization level, the heart of everything, a company, if they're doing it right, should be the customer. Again, let's remind ourselves, the customer, which also happens to be the most complex entity that's ever existed on planet Earth.

00:10:29:07 - 00:10:56:13

Alison:

That is absolutely part of the magic and frustration of the amazing jobs that we get to do now. Given the complexity, it's challenging to stay on top of and to understand the different segmentations and where your customer is evolving to and how you from a business marketing perspective, need to evolve to keep pace. Can you share some examples from either Cisco or your career of how you've successfully done that?

00:10:56:17 - 00:11:26:06

Luxy:

I think from a case, I'll talk about a couple of things. One, I am so very privileged to work for an amazing leader and my boss, Carrie Palin, who's also the CMO of Cisco, is constantly raising the bar for us. And Carrie has also instilled a culture that is focused on driving credibility with our business counterparts. And that credibility is based on data and performance and insights.

00:11:26:06 - 00:11:51:18

Luxy:

And so in order to keep up and keep pace and deliver, that actually means at every level of my organization globally, I need to make sure my teams are equipped. They're equipped not only to have access to data, but more importantly, because actually there's actually a lot of data out there. Right. But what they need to do is take the data and marry it and tell the right story and have the right impact conversation.

00:11:51:19 - 00:12:13:19

Luxy:

So in fact, recently we invested a significant amount of of our what we call development funds and we trained my entire global team on and took them to a course that was called took them virtually to a course called Data Storytelling. And it was an incredibly powerful, I think it was almost two days, and it was all about how do you take data?

00:12:14:03 - 00:12:32:18

Luxy:

But more importantly, how do you take the data and show impact and demonstrate impact? And that's an example how we're trying to keep pace, how we're trying to keep up with the raised bars right? And so I would say that's you know, that's one of the big areas is investing, investing in ourselves, investing our talent so that we can all raise the bar together.

00:12:33:11 - 00:13:04:24

Alison:

Luxy, you've actually got an enviable career, and you're just getting started in many ways. So I'd love to hear. What advice do you have for aspiring CMO's who want to follow in your footsteps?

Luxy:

Be passionate about learning. I mean, everything we just talked about, right Alison? It's all about evolving and growth mindset and just learning. And so I would just say, regardless of what ever level you're aspiring to become, be a passionate learner because it is an ever, ever changing practice.

00:13:05:13 - 00:13:27:05

Alison:

Now, I absolutely knew our time together was going to fly by, and it certainly lived up to that. Can I ask you to leave our listeners with one final thought?

Luxy:

I'm going to give you two. Number one, marketing drives business impact, and it's onto us to demonstrate that in everything we do. And number two, it is an incredibly exciting time to be a marketer.

00:13:27:09 - 00:13:45:08

Luxy:

I literally I do think I have one of the best jobs in the world.

Alison:

Well, we'll have to debate each other because I think I have one of the best jobs in the world, too, so.

Luxy:

Well, you get to work with marketers, right?

Alison:

Absolutely. Absolutely. We're both very fortunate. So Luxy, thanks so much for a really great conversation.

00:13:45:09 - 00:13:56:13

Alison:

I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I absolutely know that our listeners have learned a great deal from your experiences and your perspectives and your candour. So thank you.

Luxy:

Thank you, as always, for having me.

00:14:00:05 - 00:14:14:13

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

Alison Simpson, CEO of CMA, continues the discussion with Tyjondah Kerr, Director of Program Development and Delivery at OLG and Patrick Bhang, Director of Retail Merchandising, RBC, in part II of affecting change and combatting racism and discrimination in the marketing profession. 

Patrick Bhang's thoughts, opinions and insights are done so as a marketing professional and not as a representative of RBC.

00:02

Welcome  to  CMA  Connect,  Canada's  marketing  podcast,  where  industry  experts  discuss  how  marketers  must  manage  the  tectonic  shifts  that  will  change  how  brands  and  businesses  are  built  for  tomorrow,

00:14

 while  also  delivering  on  today's  business  needs.  Ensuring  that  the  marketing  profession  is  as  diverse  and  inclusive  as  the  Canadians  that  we  market  to  is  a  top  priority  for  the  CMA  and  for  our  membership.

00:32

Alison: So  in  keeping  with  that  theme,  it's  a  pleasure  to  welcome  back  two  members  from  our  CMA  DEI  committee.  We  had  a  great  episode,  hopefully  you've  had  a  chance  to  listen  to  it,  and  there  was  so  much  great  conversation  that  we  wanted  to  follow  it  up  with  a  second  episode.

00:47

 So  coming  back  to  join  me  today,  we  have  Tyjondah  Kerr,  the  director  of  social  responsibility  at  OLG.  She's  also  a  self -described  chief  disruption  officer,  which  definitely  comes  in  handy  when  you're  focused  on  driving  positive  change.

00:59

 Patrick  Bang  is  the  director  of  retail  merchandising  for  RBC.  He's  also  my  highly  valued  Co -Chair  for  CMA's  DEI  committee.  It's  trippy  to  have  you  both  back  with  us  today,  and  I  look  forward  to  continuing  our  conversation.

01:11

 So  one  of  the  positive  outcomes  from  the  third  year  of  our  DEI  marketer  survey  was  that  a  lot  fewer  marketers  today  are  saying  that  they  have  observed  disengagement  among  marginalized  groups.

01:22

 So  we  are  making  progress  there.  They're  witnessing  fewer  discriminatory  behaviors  in  their  organizations,  and  those  are  very,  very  encouraging  signs.  But  the  change  has  been  slow,

01:34

 certainly  slower  than  we  would  have  hoped.  So  how  do  you  feel  about  the  amount  of  progress  that  we're  seeing  within  organizational  cultures,  and  what  do  you  think  we  can  do  to  help  accelerate  it?  Tyjondah  why  don't  you  kick  this  off?

01:46

Tyjondah: 100%.  Thank  you,  Alison.  I  think  honestly,  we've  just  got  to  get  people  comfortable  in  the  conversation  and  be  clear  on  what  it  is  we're  trying  to  do.  So  for  example,  when  I  took  on  this  work  during  the  pandemic,

01:59

 it  was  about  having  conversations  and  telling  my  story  about  my  journey  and  being,  because  I've  been  a  part  of  OLG,  it's  going  on  24  years  in  November.  And  so  there  were  a  lot  of  people  that  knew  me  and  I  knew  them.

02:12

 And  so  there  was  a  level  of  comfort  already  there  to  ask  questions  and  to  sort  of  invoke  inspiration.  And  I  think  that  what  we  need  to  do  more  of  is  to  have  more  conversations,

02:23

 more  storytelling,  so  that  we  can,  because  emotion  is  what's  going  to  get  us  the  impact  change,  right?  And  move  forward.  And  I  think  storytelling  is  the  way  to  go.  Like,  those  statistics  are  talking  about  engaged  employees.

02:35

 Engaged  employees  are  happy  employees.  And  they're  engaged  when  they  have  a  sense  of  belonging.  So  if  you  start  telling  stories  about  how  you  are  planning,  based  on  your  experiences,  planning  to  help  create  a  culture  that  is  inclusive  for  all  so  that  folks  feel  that  they  can  be  themselves  during  a  certain  situation,

02:53

 then  you've  got  the  gold  star  and  the  north  star  right  there.  And  people  can  move  towards  it.  And  so  I  think  progress  is  slow,  yes,  but  we  can't  stop.  And  we've  seen  a  lot  of  folks  fall  off  after  George  Floyd's  murder  and  not  do  it.

03:08

 Budget  constraints  are  different,  you  know,  inflation,  people  are  laying  folks  off  and  it  might  just  fall  on  the  wayside.  And  it's  like  people  like  the  three  of  us  who  are  very  passionate  about  this  because  we  know  that  this  change  will  make  for  positive,

03:23

 a  more  positive  future.  I  think  we  need  to  continue  that  conversation  through  storytelling,  through  connection.  I  really  think  that  people  just  look  kind  of  inward  really  and  do  some  homework,

03:34

 see  how  far  you  can  go  and  then  just  help  another  person  out.  At  the  end  of  the  day,  it's  being  service  to  others.  And  I  think  I  might  have  strayed  away  from  your  question,  but  do  you  think  that  we  just  have  to  story  tell  and  continue  the  work  and  make  sure  the  conversation's  there  on  a  consistent  basis?

03:49

 People  should  put  it  as  a  standing  agenda  for  their  meetings.  Let's  talk  about  EDI  and  just  pick  a  topic.  Keep  the  top  of  mind.  Alison: I  love  that  idea,  because  then  to  your  point,  it  becomes  part  of  the  regular  conversation.  And  people  get  more  comfortable  and  are  less  concerned  about,

04:03

 will  I  have  a  misstep?  I'm  not  going  to  have  a  misstep  because  I'm  open  to  having  a  conversation.  So  people  are  going  to  be  understanding  and  help  me  learn  and  improve  as  I  go  as  well.  So  I  think  that's  such  great  counsel.

04:14

 Patrick,  what  would  you  add  to  this?  Patrick: I  would  say  that  the  research  shuts  some  light  into  the  benefits  of  having  diversity  at  all  levels  and  especially  diversity  at  the  top,

04:26

 so  I  think  you  have  more  employee  engagement  when  they  look  at  leadership  above  them  and  feel  like,  yes,  that  is  achievable  for  me,

04:36

 I  can  get  there  because  they're  seeing  it.  There  is  more  empathy  at  the  top  as  well,  so  it's  important  for  leaders  to  understand  the  circumstances  that  the  employees  from  marginalized  groups  are  going  through  as  well,

04:50

 so  whether  it's  listening  or  being  part  of  the  community,  I  think  a  lot  of  that  does  come  out  in  the  results  of  the  research,  so  you  see  fewer  disengaged  employees,

05:02

 you  see  fewer  incidents  of  microaggression  when  there  is  diverse  leadership  at  the  top,  where  no  diverse  leadership  are  not  aspiring  to  have  diverse  leadership.

05:13

 The  other  thing  I'll  say  is  there  is  an  intimidation  factor  as  well,  so  the  element  of  microaggression,  if  you're  not  from  marginalized  communities,

05:25

 you  haven't  experienced  in  some  of  that,  so  your  experience  is  very  different,  but  there  is  intimidation  in  the  sense  that  there  is  un clarity  of  what  that  is.

05:38

 I  have  few  leaders  coming  to  me  and  said,  I'm  not  sure,  one  time  I  was  upset,  I  may  have  been  taking  my  frustration  out  on  somebody,  it's  that  microaggression,

05:48

 so  to  Tyjondah's  point,  there  is  a  lack  of  awareness  around  what  some  of  the  terms  are,  and  as  the  advocates  and  community  leaders,

06:01

 I  think  we  just  have  to  make  sure  that  we  are  out  there  adding  clarity  to  some  of  the  things  that  we're  talking  about,  and  you  know  making  sure  that  there  is  safe  spaces,

06:12

 if  somebody  doesn't  fully  understand  what  that  is,  is  having  a  safe  space  for  them  to  speak  up  and  for  us  to  have  that  conversation. Alison: That's  such  a  great  example  Patrick  of  how  you  personally  have  created  a  safe  place  because  for  that  leader  to  come  and  ask  you  that  question  there's  a  sense  of  vulnerability  and  more  importantly  there's  a  desire  to  get  better  and  to  really  understand.

06:34

 It'd  be  hard  to  have  that  safe  place  especially  for  some  more  senior  leaders  so  I  love  the  example  and  kudos  to  you  for  helping  being  part  of  the  solution  when  it  comes  to  that.  We've  talked  a  lot  about  what  we  can  do  to  positively  impact  internally  at  our  organization  but  as  marketers  we  also  have  this  absolutely  amazing  opportunity  to  leverage  the  marketing  profession  and  the  marketing  communications  that  we  do  to  also

07:01

bring  to  life  diversity  and  the  power  of  a  more  infinity  and  approach  to  marketing.  So  there's  absolutely  no  doubt  that  developing  marketing  strategies  that  truly  resonate  with  our  increasingly  diverse  customer  base  in  Canada  is  a  fundamental  driver  and  builder  of  business  and  sales  and  I'd  love  each  of  you  to  talk  a  little  bit  about  some  of  the  challenges  that  you  see  in  this  areas  some  of  the  opportunities  you  see  and

07:26

what  steps  you've  taken  or  a  contemplating  taking  to  help  address  the  opportunity  and  why  don't  Patrick  why  don't  you  continue  the  conversation  you  shared  some  great  examples  earlier.

07:37

Patrick: Thank  you  Alison.  So  if  I  think  about  the  challenges  that  we  face  in  some  of  the  work  that  we  do  at  RBC  as  well  we  are  the  three  things  that  really  come  to  mind  for  me  one  is  the  authentic  representation  in  images  and  soft  photography  so  you  know  the  struggle  is  real  I've  been  part  of  campaigns  and  we're  trying  to  get  images  but  it's  not  in  the  right  context  it  doesn't  have  the  authentic  tone  to  it  so  that  you

08:09

know  we  are  trying  to  get  around  that  we  do  our  own  photo  shoots  but  it's  hard  to  do  a  photo  shoot  for  every  campaign  right  right?  Especially  in  an  environment  like  today  where  there's  a  lot  of,

08:20

you  know,  efficiency  measures  that  are  being  put  in  place,  right?  So  I  would  say  that,  I  think  we  need  the  support  of  stock  houses,  of  our  agencies  to  ensure  that  we  are  building  the  pool  of  images  that  reflects  the  communities  that  we  serve.

08:38

The  second  thing  I  would  say  is  we  need  more  diversity  at  all  levels,  not  just  on  the  client  side,  but  also  on  the  agency  side,  right?  You  know,  if  somebody's  writing  a  brief  that  is  by  reaching  cultural  audiences  as  well,

08:53

because  if  you  just  think  of  the  stats  we  went  through,  right?  So  that's  mass,  that's  your  mass  audience  now.  What's  the  context?  Do  you have  the  context?  Do  you  have,  you  know,

09:04

a  sense  of  what  their  needs  are  to  put  your  product  in  that  perspective  in  terms  of  adding  value  to  the  audience,  right?  So  I  would  say,  you  know,  if  you  don't  have  that  perspective,

09:15

then  it's  hard.  But  if  we  have  diversity  within  your  teams,  you  can  challenge  each  other,  you  can  bring  different  perspectives  in,  and  you  can  open  up  your  pool  of  understanding,

09:25

right?  So  and  it's  something  that  we  do  within  our  teams  as  well.  So our  team  in  retail,  marketing,  merchandising,  we  are  quite  diverse.  And every  week  we  get  together,

09:36

we  look  at  creative  with  a  critical  eye  from  our  own  experience  with  this  LGBTQ +  whether  it's  from  a  cultural  lens,  whether  it's  from  an  age  lens.  You  know,  we  look  at  it  critically  and  be  very  vocal  about sharing  how  we  feel  when  we  see  that  creative,

09:51

because  we  put  our  consumers  head  on  and  we  say,  okay,  does  it  feel  like  it's  not  connecting  with  us?  Does  it  feel  like  it  maybe  I  may  go  as  far  as  maybe  it  may  be  a  little  offensive,

10:03

right?  Because  it's  missing  that  aspect  that  I  care  about.  or  it's  talking  to  me  in  a  different  way.  So  I  think  those  things  are  important.  So  having  diversity  at  all  levels,  a  client  as  well,

10:13

supply  side,  I  think  is  important.  And  then  removing  bias  from  the  hiring  process,  right?  So  how  do  you  ensure  that,  you  know,  because  somebody's  a  newcomer,  you're  not  discounting  the  experience,

10:25

you're  not  discounting  their  education.  So  an  interesting  story.  I  was  having  a  conversation  with  a  hiring  manager,  and  the  hiring  manager  had,  he  was  sharing  his  recent  experience  on  hiring  and  he  had  great  intent.

10:40

He  had  the  intent  of,  I'm  going  to  ensure  that,  you  know,  I  have  a  diverse  pool  of  candidates  and  I'm  going  to  put  them  through  a  panel  of  stakeholders  and  my  partners.

10:54

So  he  did  that.  He  came  through  with  two  candidates,  one  from  the  South  Asian  background  and  who  was  a  newcomer  three  to  three  years  in,

11:04

I  believe.  And  the  other  was  Canadian  white  male,  the  other  South  Asian  newcomer  male.  So  really,  you  know,  good  experiences.  And  the  candidates  went  through  the  panel  and  they  have  selected  the  white  male,

11:20

you  know,  both  had  similar  backgrounds  in  education.  So  the  hiring  manager  felt  good  because  he  went  through  the  process  and  as  he  looked  back,  he  looked  at  the  panel  of  folks  that  were  interviewing  the  candidate.

11:34

And  so  there  was  an  aha  moment  to  it.  They  all  white  males  who  were in  the  panel  and  I  didn't  see  that  and  white  male  as  well.  So  it  was,  you  know,

11:45

he  caught  most  of  the  things  right,  just  that  right.  The  last  part,  he  missed.  So,  you  know,  the  point  here  is  we  have  to  look  at  it.

11:55

We  have  to  share  best  practices,  having  a  diverse  panel,  folks  interviewing  the  candidate.  I  think  it's  important,  right?  And,  you  know,  I  think  he  had  the  right  intent.  So  kudos  to  him.  And,

12:06

you  know,  it's  a  learning  that  he'll  take  away.  So  it's  great  to  see that  moment.  I  would  say  those  three  things,  authentic  representation  of  images  and  soft  photography,  more  diversity  at  all  levels.  and  lastly,

12:17

how  do  you  remove  the  unconscious  bias,  in  this  case,  in  the  hiring  processes? Alison: Those  are  such  great  examples  in  that  last  one,  in  particular,  just  so  resonates,  that  you  go  to  all  of  this  effort,

12:28

and  then  with  the  best  of  intentions,  miss  the  importance  of  diversity  on  hiring  panel  as  well.  So  thank  you  for  sharing  that  experience,  because  it  will  make  us  all  better  as  we  go  through  a  similar  process.

12:39

 Now,  Tyjondah,  I'd  love  to  hear  some  of  your  thoughts  on  this  as  well.  - So  I  can't  say  that  any  better  than  Patrick  did,  it  was  amazing.  The  only  other  thing  I  would  say  is  cultural  humility.  I  think  if  you  take  folks  through,

12:51

and  it  used  to  be  called  cultural  competence,  I  just  know  the  word  competence,  it  makes  you  seem  like  you're  incompetent.  So  I  like  the  cultural  humility,  which  is  understanding  from  the  grassroots  level,  different  cultures,

13:03

be  educated  on  different  cultures,  because  different  cultures  interact  differently  in  the  day  to  day.  And  Patrick's  point  is  we're  hiring  for  more  diversity,  and  we're  becoming  a  more  diverse  workforce.

13:13

We  have  to  understand  that  our  culture  plays  a  huge  role  in  how  we  communicate,  how  we  interact.  For  the  longest  while,  I  would  not  talk  in  meetings,  because  I  was  taught  not  to  speak  until  I  was  spoken  to.

13:24

 I'm  from  the  Caribbean,  and  there  was  a  big  deal,  and  we're  a  very  colonized  island  as  well.  So  the  white  man  was  always  right.  It  was  a  thing  for  me.  I  had  a  lot  of  internal  things  I  had  to  work  on.

13:37

So  building  on  everything  Patrick  said,  the  only  thing  I  would  add  is that  those  leaders,  those  folks  making  the  decisions,  do  some  cultural  humility  work,  so  that  you  understand  different  cultures  and  how  we  interact  with  one  another.  Alison: Thank  you  so  much.

13:48

I  really  appreciate  you  both  being  open  to  sharing  your  personal  experiences  as  well,  because  they're  incredibly  illuminating  for  us.  Now,  helping  enable  and  equip  the  marketing  profession  to  be  part  of  bringing  more  diversity,

14:00

equity,  and  inclusion  to  the  world,  and  the  profession  that  we're  part of,  is  obviously  an  important  part  of  the  DEI  committee,  and  certainly an  important  part  of  the  CMA  mandate  as  well.  So  we've  introduced  some  new  tools,

14:13

like  our  DEI  resource  hub  on  the  website,  the  committee  that  you're  both  very  actively  involved  in  and  contributing  to,  regularly  publishes  leadership  on  the  topic,  and  also  recently  worked  with  us  to  develop  and  release  a  discussion  guide  that  really  helps  share  some  tangible  actions  that  marketers  can  and  should  take.

14:33

So  since  you  were  very  involved  in  helping  pull  these  resources  together,  where  would  you  direct  marketers  seeking  to  better  understand  how  best  to  make  a  difference?  Tyjondah,  I'll  let  you  kick  this  off  and  then  Patrick  would  love  to  have  you  build  on  her  feedback.

14:45

You  said  it  right  there.  Go  on  the  CMA  resource  guide.  There's  a  lot in  there.  We  worked  really  hard  to  get  that  stuff  in  there.  There's  an  article  for  me  in  there  too,  so  I  like  it.  Honestly,  I've  helped  people  all  the  time.

14:55

Alison,  my  very  first  thing  is  you've  got  to  do  the  self -work.  Not  everyone  are  going  to  address  bias.  Not  everyone  is  going  to  say,  are going  to  be  brave  enough  even  to  look  inward  and  say,

15:08

you  know,  that  was  a  racist  comment.  I  had  a  lot  of  stereotypes  in  there  and  I  need  to  pull  myself  back.  People  don't  say  that  openly.  A  lot  of  people  don't  like  to  know  that  they  were  wrong  in  any  kind of  situation.  And  so  I  always  like  to  take  a  step  back.

15:20

If  you  can  to  reflect  personally,  I  think  you  have  to  do  a  lot  more self -work  before  you  even  start  to  go  and  look  at  resources  and  do  this  work  because  it's  hard  and  it's  uncomfortable.  And  so  not  everybody  likes  to  feel  uncomfortable.

15:32

I  know  I  don't.  I  know  I'm  going  to  get  to  a  level  of  comfort.  I'll  go  through  it.  And  so  as  much  as  there's  so  many  resources  out  there,  Alison,  like  you  just  Google  diversity  and  500  million  things  that  come  up.

15:44

And  so  there's,  if  you  want  to  learn  in  this  space,  there's  a  lot  out  there.  There's  a  lot  for  you  to  do.  But  I  would  say  before  you  do  that,  just  what  are  you  trying  to  accomplish?  Do  you  want  to  be  a  better  human?

15:55

Do  you  want  to  just  work  better  with  your  employees  who  are  across  different  cultures?  Or  is  it  that  I  just  want  to  jump  in  and  help  my  community  and  my  community  is  growing  and  it's  very  multicultural  and  it's  very  diverse  from  people  from  that  has  more  accessibility  or  to  2SLGPTQ+  plus  communities.

16:13

Ask  yourself  why  you  want  to  do  it.  Do  some  self -work  and  then  take  a  Google  and  go  in  the  direction  you  want  to  go  in.  But  I  do  say  start.  If  you're  willing  to  start,  I  applaud  you.

16:23

Alison: First  and  foremost,  start,  you're  absolutely  right,  and  then  looking  internally  at  ourselves  is  absolutely  the  right  place  to  start  as  well.  Do  you  have  any  favorite  resources  for  us  starting  our  own  work?

16:34

Tyjondah: So  I  fell  in  love  with  this  work  following  a  woman  by  the  name  of  Mary  Frances  Winters.  She  has  her  own  consultancy  that  helps  folks  in  this  EDI  work,

16:45

and  she  approaches  it  in  a  very  similar  way  than  how  I  approached  EDI  here  at  OLG.  So  it's  the  Winters  group.  Again,  Google  it,  they're online.  It's  an  American  company,  but  you  have  a  lot  of  listeners,

16:57

so  it's  good.  But  valuable  content,  regardless,  on  where  to  get  started,  and  they  really  talk  about  the  self -work  that  you  have  to  do  and  the  questions  you  have  to  ask,  and  how  do  I  talk  about  race  at  work?

17:09

It  really  gets  you  into  that  comfortable  setting  so  that  you  can  impact  change.  So  that  is  my  favorite  website.  I  use  it  now,  even  though  I'm  out  of  not  doing  EDI -specific  work,

17:19

I'm  more  doing  more  social  responsibility,  but  I  still  jump  on  that  website,  read  their  newsletter,  and  get  tips  of  how  to  be  a  better  leader  and  how  to  impact  positive  change  in  my  workplace.  Alison: Many  thanks.

17:29

You're  welcome.  Patrick,  I'd  love  to  hear  your  advice  as  well.  Patrick: As  Tyjondah said,  there's  a  lot  of  resources  that  you  can  tap  into  online.  I'll  give  a  shout  out  to  our  committee  member,

17:41

Darian  Kovach,  who  leads  Marketing  News  Canada.  He  does  a  great  job  with  his  podcast,  where  he  interviews  marketers  from  diverse  backgrounds on  challenges  of  today  and  some  of  the  key  tools,

17:55

especially  on  the  digital  side,  and  also  in  terms  of  how  to  connect  with  diverse  audiences.  So  I'd  say  Marketing  News  Canada  is  a  great  resource  for  marketers  in  general,  but  also  to  tap  into  different  perspectives.

18:06

Darian  is  an  Indigenous  leader,  so  he  brings  that  perspective  into  the  conversations  as  well,  which  is  great.  I'm  a  true  believer  in  learning  by  doing,  so  I  would  encourage,

18:18

if  you  are  interested,  is  to  participate  in,  you  whether  it's  an  ERG,  within  the  organization,  employee  resource  group,  whether  it's  organizations  like  us  in  Canada,

18:29

that  supports  Pan-Asian  leaders,  whether  it's  COF-P,  that  supports  urban financial  professionals  from  black  communities,  how  to  participate  in  that?  You  don't  have  to  be  from  the  community,

18:39

but  you  can  be  part  of  that  community.  And  from  a  cultural  standpoint,  you  can  participate,  you  can  gain  different  perspectives,  CMA  as  well,  you  know,  you  can  be  part,

18:51

you  know,  of  some  of  the  work  we  are  doing  as  well.  So,  you  know,  CMA  inclusion  happens  every  year  where  we  invite  leaders  from  different organizations  to  be  part  of  the  conversation.

19:03

If  you're  interested,  I  think  that's  great  to  bring  a  perspective.  So  I  think  there's  a  lot  of  opportunities  and,  you  know,  to  take,  you  know,  do  a  short -term  or  long -term  volunteer  gig  and  learn  from  folks  from,

19:15

from  those  communities.  And  I  think  there's  a  lot  to  learn  that  way.  Alison: Such  great  advice.  I  really  want  to  thank  you  both  for  your  incredibly  valuable  insights  today.  I  love  the  fact  that  it's  been  sharing  perspective,

19:26

but  also  giving  us  some  really  actionable  ways  that  we  can  start  making  a  positive  impact  as  soon  as  this  afternoon  or  tomorrow.  So  I  really  appreciate  that.  And  I  want  to  close  by  giving  each  of  you  a  chance  to  leave  us  with  one  final  thought.

19:41

So  Patrick,  you  can  kick  things  off  and  then  Tyjondah,  you  can  officially  wrap  up  our  time  together.  Patrick: One  final  thought  is  more  of  a  one  final  ask.  Canada  and  newcomers  coming  to  Canada,

19:52

they  need  mentors.  There  is  no  guide  in  terms  of  some  of  the  cultural  nuances,  some  of  the  language  nuances,  some  of  the  culture  nuances  in  Canada.  I'd  say  be  a  mentor  to  a  newcomer  and,

20:05

you  know,  help  them  settle  into  a  country  faster.  New  Canada  is  a  beautiful  place.  It's  an  amazing  diverse  community.  Let's  bring  them  in.  Let's  support  them  and  let's  make  sure  they're  successful  for  our  own  success  in  the  future.

20:18

So,  you  know,  TRIAC  is  a  great  organization.  They're  looking  for  mentors.  We  are  looking  at  a  mentorship  program  for  CMA.  So  if  you're interested,  reach  out  to  us  and  we  can  connect  you  to  the  right  resources.

20:32

Tyjondah: I  love  that,  Patrick.  And  I'm  putting  up  my  hand  now.  And  I  would  say,  I  think  my  closing  thoughts,  Alison,  is  that  please  be  okay  to  lean  into  your  discomfort.

20:44

I  think  that's  what  I'm  going  to  tell  folks.  It's  like  lean  into  it. It's  okay.  There's  a  huge  community  on  us  who  among  everyone  who  want to  impact  change.  So  lead  into  the  discomfort  because  it  does  lead  to change.

20:59

And  then  at  the  end  of  the  day,  we're  human  beings  and  we're  all  on this  earth  to  be  of  service  to  one  another.  And  so  part  of  that  discomfort  is  being  there  for  others.  And  as  long  as  that's  our  priority,

21:11

we'll  get  this  work  done.  And  I'm  going  to  just  do  a  little  mic  drop  there.  We  do  it  in  service  to  one  another.  Alison: That  was  a  very  powerful  mic  drop.  So,  Tyjondah  and  Patrick,  thanks  again.  I  knew when  we  the  three  of  us  got  together  that  the  time  was  going  to  fly by  and  that  certainly  has  proven  to  be  the  case.

21:25

And  I  just  want  to  thank  you  once  again  for  giving  us  very  actionable  and  powerful  ways  to  walk  away  from  listening  to  the  podcast  and  really  start  making  an  even  bigger  difference.  Thanks  for  joining  us.

21:43

 Be  sure  to  visit  the  cma .ca  and  sign  up  for  your  free  MyCMA  account.  It's  a  great  way  to  stay  connected  and  benefit  from  the  latest  marketing  thought  leadership,  news  and  industry  trends.

Alison Simpson, CEO of CMA, welcomes Tyjondah Kerr, Director of Program Development and Delivery at OLG and Patrick Bhang, Director of Retail Merchandising, RBC, to discuss affecting change and combatting racism and discrimination in the marketing profession. 

Patrick Bhang's thoughts, opinions and insights are done so as a marketing professional and not as a representative of RBC.

00:02

Welcome  to  CMA  Connect,  Canada's  marketing  podcast,  where  industry  experts  discuss  how  marketers  must  manage  the  tectonic  shifts  that  will change  how  brands  and  businesses  are  built  for  tomorrow,

00:14

while  also  delivering  on  today's  business  needs.  Alison: So  helping  ensure  that the  marketing  profession  in  Canada  is  as  diverse  and  inclusive  as  the  Canadians  that  we're  marketing  to  is  absolutely  a  top priority  for  the CMA,

00:33

as  well  as  for  our  membership.  On  that  note,  we  have  a  dedicated  DEI committee  that's  made  up  of  very  talented  marketers  and  DEI  experts  from  across  our  broad  membership,  and  they  play  a  key  role  in  our  efforts.

00:44

One  of  the  ways  the  CMA  is  helping  to  advance  DEI  within  marketing  is  through  research  that  also  helps  lead  to  action.  So  our  DEI  in  the  marketing  profession  Progress  and  challenges  survey  earlier  this  year  really  explored  what  steps  can  be  taken  to  have  a  meaningful  impact  on  diversity  in  the  workplace  for  the  marketing  profession.

01:04

The  research  was  developed  in  collaboration  with  the  CMA's  DEI  committee,  and  it's  third  study  that  we've  completed  since  2020.  So  it's  an  important  part  of  our  broader  commitment  to  take  steps  to  combat  racism  and  discrimination  in  marketing.

01:18

So  it  is  an  absolute  pleasure  to  welcome  two  members  from  our  DEI  committee  today  to  discuss  this  really  important  call  to  action  for  the  profession.  So  I'll  start  by  introducing  Tyjondah Kerr,

01:28

who  is  the  Director  of  Social  Responsibility  at  OLG.  She's  also  a  self -described  Chief  Disruption  Officer,  which  definitely  comes  in  handy when  you're  focused  on  driving  positive  change.  And  then  joining  Tyjondah and  myself  today  is  Patrick  Bhang.

01:41

 He's  the  Director  of  Retail  Marketing  for  RBC,  and  Patrick's  also  my  very  highly  valued  co -chair  for  the  CMA  DEI  committee.  It's  really  great  to  have  both  of  you  here  today,  Tiana  and  Patrick.

01:52

Tyjondah: Thank  you  for  having  me. Patrick: Thank  you  for  having  me. Alison: So  we're  gonna  get  right  into  the  topic.  As  marketers,  we  can  absolutely  all  agree  that  our  profession  has  a  very  unique  opportunity  to  drive  diversity,

02:06

equity,  and  inclusion  from  a  number  of  angles.  However,  many  marketers  are  still  seeking  guidance  and  best  practices  on  how  they  can  best  do that  and  have  a  real  impact.

02:16

So  in  some  instances,  it's  really  hard  for  them  to  know  where  to  begin.  And  that's  exactly  what  we're  going  to  do,  is  we're  going  to  begin  by  asking  how  to  help  marketers  continue  having  these  conversations.

02:30

So  I'd  love  to  ask  each  of  you  if  you  could  start  by  sharing  your  views  on  marketing's  impact  and  taking  that  first  step.  Tiana,  why  don't  you  kick  things  off?  Tyjondah: Absolutely.  Thank  you,  Alison.  I  think  I  like  to  start  off  by  telling  everybody  you  all  have  a  sphere of  influence  when  it  comes  to  this  work.

02:47

No  matter  what  level  you  are  at,  whether  you're  a  graphic  designer,  art  director,  owner  of  an  agency,  any  particular  person  can  influence  their  work,

02:58

their  day -to -day  through  EDI.  And  you  need  to  start  with  understanding  that  equity  has  to  happen.  And  I  think  a  lot  of  us  start  with  diversity  and  we  get  scared  and  there's  fear.

03:11

But  our  organization  here  at  OLG  puts  equity  first.  It's  equity,  diversity,  then  inclusion.  And  the  reason  why  we  do  that  is  because  if  you  have  the  focus  on  equity  by  sort  of  balancing  out  the  inequities  that  are  causing  the  problems,

03:24

when  you  put  that  first  at  the  forefront  of  the  conversation,  then  diversity  can  come  next  as  well  as  inclusion.  I  will  actually  say  inclusion  should  come  first  because  you  want  to  always  have  a  culture  of  inclusion  where  folks  feel  comfortable  to  be  themselves  and  especially  within  the  marketing  industry  to  come  feel  safe  to  bring  their  ideas  forward  and  to  make  change.

03:43

In  a  nutshell,  I  just  say  that  we  all  have  influence,  no  matter  what our  level  and  what  we  do,  and  to  just  jump  in  without  fear.  It's  scary  to  screw  up  and  make  mistakes,

03:54

but  it  is  what  it  is.  We  are  human  beings.  We  aim  for  progress,  not perfection.  And  so  in  doing  that,  when  we  go  into  it  on  a  daily  basis  and  under  our  own  capacity,

04:05

how  we  can  affect  change  by  what  we  do,  just  jump  in  with  both  feet.  And  if  we  make  a  mistake,  we  say  we're  sorry  and  we  just  grow from  that  and  we  get  better.  And  I  really  think  for  all  marketers,  for  any  level  of  where  you  are  at  in  the  profession,

04:18

EDI  is  something  that  should  be  at  the  forefront  just  because  of  the  work  that  involves  both  internally  and  externally  and  how  we  impact  the  world.  And  so  honestly,  Allison,  to  start  us  off,

04:28

that  is  what  I  would  say.  Like  jump  in  without  fear,  consider  equity  first  and  how  you  want  to  go  about  doing  that.  Then  focus  on  inclusivity  and  making  sure  people  feel  welcome  and  appreciated  and  valued.  And  we  all  have  that  sense  of  belonging.

04:40

And  then  the  diversity  will  generally  happen  because  of  just  what  happens  naturally  organically.  And  I  can  leave  it  there.  Alison: Very  well  said.  And  you're  so  right  that  in  any  new  area  that  we're  pursuing  as  individuals,

04:54

you  just  expect  that  there's  going  to  be  mistakes  along  the  way.  This topic  can  come  with  some  intimidation.  So  to  acknowledge  that  we're  all  going  to  make  mistakes,  no  matter  how  well  versed  we  are,

05:05

we,  it's  inevitable  that  we'll  have  some  missteps  along  the  way.  And  let's  be  understanding  of  ourselves  and  each  other  when  that  happens.  And  let's  use  it  as  a  learning  opportunity.  So  incredibly  well  said.

05:16

Patrick,  I  know  this  is  a  passion  for  yours  as  well.  So  how  would  you  answer  the  question?  Patrick: Yeah,  so  in  terms  of  what  market  is  going  to  do  to  take  that  first  step,  for  me,  it's  it's  around,

05:26

it's  about  understanding  what's  happening  around  you,  right?  So  one  of  the  aspects  that  was  hardly  enlightening  for  me  is  looking  at  a  shift in  demographics  in  Canada.

05:38

So  if  you  look  at  the  2021  census  data,  it  will  be  very  clear  to  you  that  the  groups  formally,  collectively  known  as  minorities,  are  in  fact  becoming  the  majority  in  key  cities.

05:50

Toronto,  Vancouver,  56 %  of  the  population  in  these  countries  are  visible  minorities.  Even  most  staggering  is  you  look  at  the  hubs  around  these  cities,  like  the  Markhams,

06:01

the  Bramptons,  the  Richmond  BCs,  80 %  of  the  population  in  those  communities  are  visible  minorities.  So  you  may  ask,  okay,  yeah,  makes  sense,

06:12

Vancouver,  Toronto.  What  about  the  Western  cities?  So  if  you  look  at  Calgary,  you  look  at  Minton,  you  look  at  Winnipeg,  they're  not  actually  that  far  behind  Toronto  and  Vancouver.

06:24

They  are  47%,  like  between  40  to  47%.  So,  you  know,  the  demographics  are  changing  throughout  Canada,  and  that's  going  to  be  accelerated  by  the  fact  that  we  are  welcoming  400,000  newcomers  to  Canada  every  year for  the  next  few  years.

06:41

So  as  marketers,  I  feel  like,  you  know,  the  first  step  is  around  having  awareness  in  terms  of  how  your  target  audience  is  changing,  who is  going  to  be  buying  your  product,  either  your  products  or  your  clients'  products  in  the  coming  years,

06:54

and  how  do  you  connect  with  them  in  meaningful  ways.  So,  you  know,  one  of  the  aspects  that,  as  I  think  about  this,  and  I  look  at  brands  that  are  doing  really  well,  when  you  look  at  IKEA,

07:05

you  look  at  some  of  the  powerhouse  brands  in  Canada,  like  Canadian  Tire.  Canadian  Tire  rolls  out  the  red  carpet  for  newcomers  in  mass  advertising  and  welcomes  them  into  the  community.

07:17

IKEA  celebrates  Ramadan  in  mass  advertising  to  show  that,  hey,  you  know,  we  can  play  a  part  in  your  celebrations.  We  can  add  value.

07:28

And  it's  providing  ideas  to  the  cultural  audience,  right,  to  make  sure that  their  products  are  relevant  to  them.  So,  given  the  stats  that  I  just  mentioned,  given,  you  know,  that  you  can  creatively  really  engage  this  space  by  showing  that  you  have  a  sense  of  where  they're  coming  from.

07:45

You  can  connect  with  them.  You  can  play  a  part  in  their  lives  in  meaningful  ways.  I  think  that's  where  success  will  really  come  from,  right?  Even  if  you  think  about,  you  know,  some  of  these  showcases  in  Cannes,

07:56

this  year,  DEI  played  a  huge  part  with  Apple's,  you  know,  campaign  called  The  Greatest,  that  really  recognizes  showcases  how  accessibility  is  built  into  their  products.

08:08

If  you  look  at  Vaseline  and  some  of  the  work  they're  doing  in  terms  of  lack  of  diversity  in  images  for  physicians  to  diagnose  something,  something,  I  think  those  are  all  real  challenges  that  brands  are  taking  that  courage  step-to-step  forward  and  say,

08:22

yes,  I  think  year  is  a  challenge  and  year  is  how  we  can  solve  it.  So,  you  know,  going  back  to  your  question,  as  in  the  first  step,  well,  is  understanding  how  things,  how  the  community  is  changing  around you,

08:33

who  you  target  audience  are  and  really  figuring  out  how  your  brand  and  your  client's  brand  can  play  a  role  in  the  lives  of  our  Davos  society  and  Davos  community.

08:45

So  that's  where  I'll  leave  it.  Alison: Patrick,  thanks  so  much  for  sharing  your  experience  and  your  expertise.  It  really  cements  the  fact  that  being  more  diverse  and  inclusive  in  our  approach  isn't  just  the  right  thing  to  do.

08:57

It's  also  such  a  smart  driver  of  business  and  you  can  have  dramatic  positive  business  impacts  at  the  same  time  that  you're  having  dramatic  positive  societal  impacts  as  well.

09:09

So  it  just  speaks  to  the  importance  and  in  large  part  why  the  three  of  us  are  as  passionate  as  we  are  about  bringing  more  diversity,  equity  and  inclusion  to  the  marketing  profession.  So  as  I  mentioned  earlier,

09:19

we've  now  done  our  third  survey,  DEI  survey  to  the  Canadian  marketing  community.  And  one  of  the  key  metrics  that  has  emerged  every  year  in  our  research  is  that  the  diversity  of  senior  leadership  in  an  organization  is  fundamental  to  just  about  everything  and  it's  fundamental  in  the  positive  impact  it  can  have  across  all  the  important  business  metrics.

09:42

Despite  all  of  the  benefits,  today  only  25 %  of  respondents  felt  that  they  had  well -diversified  leadership  teams  and  that  had  only  increased  a  couple  of  points  since  we  first  did  the  survey  in  2020.

09:56

So  my  question  to  both  of  you,  given  the  importance  of  diversity,  especially  in  senior  leadership,  why  do  you  think  change  is  taking  so  long  and  what  are  organizations  doing  to  really  help  move  the  dial?

10:08

Patrick,  do  you  want  to  respond  first  and  then  Tyjondah,  you  can  build  on  the  comments?  Patrick: Thanks,  Alison,  that's  a  great  question.  If  I  think  about,  you  know,  where  we  were  in  2020,  it's  important  for  us  to  understand  that  prior  to  the  pandemic,

10:21

prior  to  Black  Lives  Matter,  prior  to  anti -Asian  hate,  there  was  not  a  lot  of  attention  that  was  actually  being  paid  to  whether  a  company's  workforce  was  diverse  or  not,  right?  So  if  you  think  about  it,

10:32

I  was  part  of  an  organization  in  Canada  and  we  were  supporting  Pan-Asian  leadership.  To,  at  that  point,  prior  to  the  pandemic,  there  wasn't  a  lot  of  momentum  towards,

10:44

hey,  you  know,  who  are  our  employees?  What  can  we  do  to  make  our  work  think  more  inclusive?  Some  of  the  top  leaders  were  thinking  that  way,  but  there  was  not  a  lot  of  action  underway  at  that  time.

10:55

So  the  pandemic  happened,  and  what  it  did  was  it  brought  to  light  some  of  the  inequities,  some  of  the  systemic  bias  and  the  everyday  challenges  that  the  marginalized  groups  and  those  in  lower  social  economics  classes  faced,

11:10

right?  It's  hard  to  think  about  the  pandemic  now.  I  mean,  you  know,  it  almost  feels  like  distant  memory.  But  a  few  years  in  2020,  if  you think  about  that,  it's,  you  know,

11:21

we  saw  a  spike  in  racism,  like  these  brutality  in  Black  communities  with  Floyd's  death.  You  know,  like  the  elderly  Asians  being  pushed  and punched  on  the  roads  and  the  streets  of  Canada.

11:33

Like,  you  know,  you  saw  the  impact  of  bias.  You  saw  how  the  pandemic really  hurt  ethnic  and  minority  groups  in  ways  that  brought  to  light  all  the  systemic  inequalities  and  injustices.

11:47

So,  you  know,  when  you  think  about  that,  and  you  think  of  what  happened,  as  many  brands  advertised  their  support  for  Black  Lives  Matter.  And  we  saw  the,  you  know,

11:58

the  backlash  of  advocates  and  society  in  general  calling  them  out  to  say,  hey,  thanks  for  your  support,  but  your  workforce  is  not  diverse.  Your  leadership  is  not  diverse.

12:10

Like,  you  know,  I'm  not  going  to  call  out  the  brand's  name,  but  we  know  who  they  are,  right?  I  mean,  so  when  you  think  about  that,  you  start  to  then  see  top  companies  really  start  to  address  that,

12:23

really  start  to  look  into  their  own  backyard  to  see,  okay,  are  we  diverse  enough?  Is  and,  you  know,  there  is  some  strong  momentum.  Organizations  are  hiring  and  they've  started  positions  like  Chief  Diversity  Officer,

12:37

which  is  actually  not  a  common  title  that  people  had  prior  to  the  pandemic,  right?  So  but  we  see  more  of  that.  And,  you  know,  it's  great  the  organizations  are  doing  that  because  they're  saying  we  need  somebody  to  bring  us  together  to  address  our  own  systemic  issues  that  prevents  us  from  hiring,

12:57

you  know,  members  from  visible  minority  groups  or  marginalized  groups.  So  what  can  we  do  differently?  How  do  we  bring  people  together?  How  do  we  start  training  sessions?

13:07

How  do  we  create  mentorship  programs?  So  if  I  just  think  about,  you  know,  just  a  few  years  ago,  three  years  ago,  to  me,  that  was  the  trigger.

13:18

That  was,  you  know,  the  issues  how  they  came  to  life.  That  was  what  we  needed  to  see  to  gain  the  momentum.  So  you  know,  to  get  to  25%,  you  know,  three  years  out,

13:29

I  see  some  optimistic  in  general.  So  I  see  a  lot  of  momentum  building  up  towards  a  brighter  future  where,  you  know,  there  will  be  diversity  at  all  levels  of  leadership  in  Canada  and  the  States,

13:44

in  the  not  too  long,  you  know,  future.  So,  you  know,  I  see  what  RBC is  doing.  I  see  what,  you  know,  some  of  the  key  brands  are  doing.  And  I'm  encouraged  by  what  I'm  seeing.  So  I  look  at  from  the  standpoint  is  we  have  some  great  momentum,

13:56

and  we  just  have  to  ensure  that  we  keep  building  on  it.  Alison: It's  such  a  great  perspective.  And  thank  you  for  level  setting  that  because we  want  to  make  as  much  progress  as  quickly  as  possible,

14:06

 we  can  sometimes  underestimate  the  progress  that  we've  already  made.  So  I  really  appreciate  you  celebrating  the  fact  that  yes,  we  want  to  continue  to  improve,  but  we  should  also  acknowledge  that  we  are  making  advancements.

14:20

We  are  furthering  the  important  mandate.  Now,  Tyjondah I  know  you've  got some  great  thoughts  on  this  as  well  so  I'd  love  to  turn  it  over  to  you.  Tyjondah: I'm  one  of  those  people  that  like  Patrick  very  positive  and  I  do  see  movement  in  this  space  you  know  sometimes  when  you  ask  certain organizations  if  they  feel  like  if  you  ask  the  employees  especially  black  employees  they'll  say  no  it's  not  moving  fast  enough  and  I  think

14:42

sometimes  that  that's  just  our  you  know  it's  our  own  personal  sort  of narrative  on  how  we  want  to  see  change  based  on  how  we've  been  affected  in  corporate  Canada  but  to  the  question  on  leadership  though  I  think  the  reason  why  it's  not  moving  as  slowly  to  is  it's  like  I  mentioned  earlier  it's  that  fear  and  then  I  also  think  that  a  lot  of leaders  aren't  being  intentional  so  marketers  especially  are  riding  the  wave  like

15:05

we're  trying  to  be  more  diverse  in  our  advertising  and  it's  about  the people  that  were  hiring  and  etc  etc  and  that's  all  great  but  in  the  actual  jobs  your  day-to-day  it  needs  to  be  intentional  leaders  need  to be  intentional  and  say  I  am  going  to  hire  a  person  of  color  you  know  for  this  particular  role  or  I  am  going  to  look  for  a  woman  to  fill  this  role  because  it's  been  historically  filled  by  male  and  you  could

15:34

do  this  under  especially  here  in  Ontario  you  could  do  that  under  your Human  Rights  Act  right  um  you  know  to  have  that  specialized  hiring  so that  you're  not  discriminating  discriminating  against  other  marginalized  communities  but  I  do  think  folks  just  are  not  being  intentional  a  because  they  might  be  too  scared  I  don't  know  what  that  looks  like I  don't  know  how  to  do  it  and  I  think  the  other  thing  and  Patrick  I'm just

15:55

going  to  pick  on  something  you  said  just  a  little  bit  about  the  EDI  the  chief  EDI  officer  that  you  know  it's  not  just  up  to  that  role  to do  the  work  that  role  will  bring  you  the  education  and  get  you  the knowledge  and  everything  else  that  you  need  but  every  leader  needs  to look  inward  and  say  how  am  I  impacting  this  work  and  if  this  is  something  that  our  organization  is  it's  pledging  to  do  we  are  pledging to  be

16:19

more  equitable  we  are  pledging  to  be  more  diverse  and  we're  pledging  to  be  more  inclusive  then  each  of  those  three  things  are  a  very  big  statement  and  every  leader  needs  to  say  well  what  am  I  going  to  do  what is my impact how am I going  to  hire  for  more  diversity  so  that we can increase  that  pipeline so  we'll  see  those  numbers  the  next  time we survey  grow  even  more  we  need  to  have  the  pipeline  to  choose  from  and

16:42

if our  marketing  organizations  aren't  going  out  there  to  tap  people  about  our  industry  to  see  all  the  different  things  that  we're  doing  then  we'll  never  have  that  pipeline  and  we'll  never  have  people  to  promote  so  it  kind  of  takes  all  of  us  in  this  work  to  sort  of  do  our  part  to  make  this  move  along  further  it's  not  to  the  EDI  person  it  is  not  up  to  the  CEO  it's  up  to  all  of  us  to  play  a  part  in  player  role  to

17:04

be  intentional  to  make  sure  that  we  move  along  a  little  further  because  it  is  kind  of  slow  I  get  that  it's  a  journey  but  I  mean  we just  celebrated  last  Monday  the  60th  anniversary  of  Martin  Luther  King's  speech  on  his  march  on  on  Washington  60  years  and  that's  too  long  we  should  be  a  little  bit  more  we  should  be  faster  along  truth  and  reconciliation  even  when  you  think  about  it  I  think  there's  something  like  only

17:26

four  acts  four  of  the  actions  that's  been  done  that  our  prime  minister  had  said  here  in  Canada  four  out  of  all  of  the  acts  under  truth  and  reconciliation  come  on  folks  we  can  move  a  little  faster  and  that's  been  since  I  think  2013  or  2015  come  on  so  sorry  that  came  from  a  very  passionate  place  Alison: Never  apologize  for  your  passion  you're  so  right  no  matter  how  talented  the  chief  diversity  officer  is  the  the  CEO  are  one

17:51

person  two  people  alone  cannot  accomplish  what  we  need  to  accomplish  and  when  you  call  out  the  fact  that  every  individual  in  an  organization  has  an  important  role  to  play  building  on  that  idea  to  what  degree  should  diversity  be  part  of  our  KPIs  and  performance  objectives  because  ultimately  what  gets  measured  gets  focused  on  and  hopefully  achieved  where  would  you  sit  on  that  question?

18:15

Tyjondah: I  love  that  question.  I'm  not  a  fan  of  quotas.  Like  I  get  a  little  scared  about  quotas,  but  you've  got  to  measure.  You  have  to  have  a  target.  What  are  you  trying  to  do?  And  I  think  you  have  to  ask  the  question,  what  is  it  that  we're  trying  to  resolve?

18:27

What  is  it  that  we're  trying  to  impact  as  an  organization?  Each  organization  has  to  make  that  decision.  And  then  when  they  decide,  like  I'll  take  OLG  for  example,  for  us  in  our  offices  in  Sault  Ste.

18:38

Marie,  it's  82 %  white  that  people  identify.  And  we've  got  a  very  large  population  in  Sault  Ste.  Marie  that  is  of  Indigenous  population.  So  if  we  are  an  organization  that  wants  to  become  more  diverse,

18:51

then  we  would  set  a  target  of  say,  let's  increase  Indigenous  hires  from  2 %  that  it  is  now  to  3 %  year  over  year,  whatever  that  would  be,  to  be  intentional  of  trying  to  increase  that  work,

19:04

right?  So  if  you  use  targets  in  that  way,  not  to  just  have  a  quota, we  need  50 %  black  people,  no.  That's  like,  don't  just  pull  it  out  of  your  hat,  be  intentional  and  authentic  in  what  it  is  that  you're  trying  to  do.

19:17

And  then  you  put  yourself,  you  put  a  target,  you  put  that  as  part  of  your  KPIs  that  you  want  to  accomplish  for  the  year,  you  talk  about  it.  And  that's  part  of  the  journey  and  part  of  it's  speeding  it  up.

19:28

So  we  do  have  to  put  those  targets  in  place  so  the  work  could  speed  up.  And  I  kind  of  jumped  in  there  because  it  was  just  top  of  line,  but  Patrick,  I  don't  know  if  you  have  anything  to  say.  But  that's  my  two  cents.  Tyjondah: For  five  cents  because  we're  in  inflation.

19:41

Patrick: I  100 %  agree.  I  think  quotas  are  not  the  right  thing  to  do. I  feel  like  goals  and  aspirations  are  important,

19:52

right?  So  I'll  kind  of  build  on  what  you  were  saying  about  pipeline.  To  me,  that  is  the  focus,  right?  So  it's  not  to  kick  the  leaders  out  of  their  seat  today.

20:05

It's  to  ensure  that  organizations  are  coming  together,  to  ensure  that,  hey,  are  we  supporting  the  you  or  the  students  with  the  right  opportunities?

20:18

Students  of  all  colors,  students  of  all  classes,  are  we  making  sure  that  we  are  taking  our  biases  out  and  ensuring  that  everybody  has  opportunities  to  participate  in  internships  based  on  their  interests,

20:32

based  on  their  education,  right?  So,  do  they  have  the  opportunity?  Do  emerging  leaders  have  the  opportunity,  the  same  opportunities  to  have  the  mentorship,  to  have  the  training,

20:44

to  have  the  opportunities  to  be  in  front  of  key  leaders  and  beyond  significant  projects?  So,  to  me,  I  think  that's  the  pipeline,  that  is  going  to  be  so  important  for  us  to  ensure  that  all  the  leaders,

20:58

like  100 %  agree,  it's  up  to  all  leaders  to  ensure  at  all  levels  that  we  are  all  focused  on  making  sure  that  there  is  a  strong  pipeline  of  future  leaders.

21:10

So  as  changes  are  happening,  we  give  leaders  of  all  communities  and  visible  communities  those  opportunities  to  succeed.  So  I  do  believe  in  that,  you  know,

21:20

the  goals  are  where  it  plays  to  be  because  I  think  being  measured  to goals  is  going  to  be  important,  right?  So  it  helps  us  stay  focused,  making  sure  we  have  stretch  goals,  making  sure  that  we  come  up  with  innovative  solutions  to  get  to  those  goals.

21:35

Alison: Tyjondah  and  Patrick,  we've  had  such  a  great  discussion  and  I  know  we're  just  getting  started.  I  really  appreciate  the  terrific  and  very  personal  and  hands-on learning  that  you've  provided  to  our  listeners  and  I  want  to  continue  the  conversation  with  the  follow -up  podcast.

21:50

So  please  tune  in  to  part  two  with  Tyondah Kerr,  the  Director  of  Social  Responsibility  at  OLG  and  Patrick  Bhang,  the  Director  of  Retail  Merchandising  for  RBC.

22:01

They're  also  both  on  our  CMA  Diversity,  Equity  and  Inclusion  Committee.  We're  going  to  come  back  for  a  follow-up  episode  to  share  more  learning  on  how  we,  as  a  marketing  profession,

22:12

can  further  advance  DEI  within  our  community.  Thanks  for  joining  us.  Be  sure  to  visit  the  CMA .ca  and  sign  up  for  your  free  My  CMA  account.

22:26

It's  a  great  way  to  stay  connected  and  benefit  from  the  latest  marketing  thought  leadership,  news,  and  industry  trends.

Alison Simpson, CEO of The CMA, welcomes Microsoft’s Amol Shah, Americas Data & AI Lead, and Audrey Davidson, Head of Integrated Marketing Americas, to discuss generative AI and the future of the marketing profession.

00:00:02:20 - 00:00:19:08

Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brand and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.

00:00:22:14 - 00:00:49:21

Alison: It's an absolute pleasure to have Audrey Davidson and Amol Shah from Microsoft joining us on CMA Connect today. Not surprisingly, generative AI is a very hot topic for the marketing profession right now. It's also evolving and expanding very quickly and represents certainly a lot of excitement, but also some daunting time for everyone involved. So we really see today as a great opportunity to discuss generative AI from two different and very well informed perspectives.

00:00:50:11 - 00:01:10:21

Audrey is the head of Integrated Marketing for the Americas and Amol is the data and I lead for sales enablement and Operations for the Americas at Microsoft. Welcome, Audrey and Amol. Thanks, Alison. Great to be here. Thanks, Alison. Yeah. Great to be here. On the hopefully very rare chance that there's someone listening who doesn't know. I'm going to give a quick definition of generative A.I..

00:01:11:13 - 00:01:33:17

Alison: Quite simply, it's a form of machine learning like m365, copilot and chat GPT that can produce text, video, images and other types of content. So with that simple definition behind us, let's get started. I'm going to kick things off with you, and I'd love to hear. How do you recommend companies approach and think about AI? Yeah, it's a great question.

00:01:33:19 - 00:02:02:00

Amol: So I've been in tech for probably 20 plus years now, and although Microsoft has been an AI company for some time, the pace of innovation right now is by far the most transformative I've personally seen. And so, you know, A.I. breakthroughs are going to change and augment how we work, how we live. And so I would kind of think about that question in three ways, which is, number one, I think everyone's mindset needs to evolve with that, right?

00:02:02:00 - 00:02:21:18

And especially from a traditional marketing perspective, we need to evolve into more of a learn it all mindset versus a know it all mindset. And so what I mean by that is we really need to spend the time understanding A.I. how it could support the business, the technology behind it, how it's used, the principles behind it, all of that stuff.

00:02:21:18 - 00:02:44:22

We need to really, as marketing professionals, really need to spend the time understanding and also have the mindset to to want to want to understand it. The second thing I would say is like the the AI, you know, piece of it right now can be overwhelming. And so I would say we need to think about how we start small with low risk use cases, meaning we don't need to completely revamp a process or an engine overnight.

00:02:44:24 - 00:03:04:13

Eventually, you need to get there, but start small and then building on on number one. It's a really cool time in the industry right now, and we have an opportunity to learn from peers, from influencers, from competitors. And so we need to embrace that. And so personally, I you know, I spent a lot of time with customers, with partners.

00:03:04:13 - 00:03:25:17

I talk to peers in the industry, understanding their perspectives, understanding where they're at, understanding where the technology is taking them and how how they're leveraging it. And so those are be the kind of the three things that just, you know, learn from everyone around you start small, lower low risk use cases and evolve the mindset all up in terms of how to transform marketing as a whole.

00:03:26:00 - 00:03:43:11

Alison: That's a great, great advice and a great starting point. Amol, thank you very much. Now, the two of you absolutely have a front seat for the AI revolution in many ways and I'd love to hear from both of you. What are the consistent themes that you're seeing companies and marketers ask about AI? Audrey Why don't you kick this one off?

00:03:44:07 - 00:04:10:21

Audrey: Yeah, sure, I'd love to. The biggest theme that I'm really noticing right now is curiosity and excitement around the art of the possible. So from automation and streamlining of processes for efficiency to predictive analytics and personalization for those improved experiences, I think that again, I just kind of center on that theme of curiosity and excitement is because people are just really eager to kind of either figure it out or experiment.

00:04:10:21 - 00:04:28:11

And then, you know, the marketers that I speak with, they're just really looking to embrace it and looking for the upsides and focusing on, you know, those time efficiencies that can really be granted so that we can all spend the time focusing on, you know, kind of the the strategic things that we want to focus on can be a really great enabler.

00:04:28:11 - 00:04:55:02

Alison: You're absolutely right, Audrey. Amol I'd love to hear what you'd add to that. Amol:

Content generation is one areas around proposals, contracts, presentations, Yeah, themes I guess that I'm seeing right now as it relates to marketing is for area specifically designs, invoices, all of that stuff I get from different kind of industries and the idea of how do you leverage high into the flow of work and business process.

00:04:55:08 - 00:05:21:13

Amol: And so that that's number one. Secondly, I would say there's a big portion of data and analytics that comes into play. One of the biggest barriers that we've always seen around adoption of AI tools is data. And so specifically how to how does marketing interact with data engineers, data scientists, business analysts and the struggle with the complexity of making data integration and data warehousing, machine learning, business intelligence all work together from a marketing perspective.

00:05:21:13 - 00:05:38:16

And so that idea of data and analytics is coming up to the forefront in terms of AI as a whole customer service. And again, it's something we typically don't get very involved in from a marketing perspective, but customer experience, customer service is going to evolve with AI. And as marketers, we need to be a part of that.

00:05:38:16 - 00:06:05:11

And so think about how chat bots are being leveraged right now. And then the last thing again, something not traditional, but the idea of app development code generation and how do we think about that from a go to market perspective in terms of how agile we are when it comes to launching or refining products? And so I would say those are kind of the four areas that I've seen pretty consistently across the board when it comes to how marketing and CMO's are thinking about leveraging AI.

00:06:05:13 - 00:06:27:00

Alison: Thanks Amol. Now Audrey I think you mentioned that one of the potential areas is to free us up as marketers to focus on higher level work. So I'd love you to build on that and share how you see it transforming the way that organizations and marketers are working. Audrey: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think it really is making life ton easier for us.

00:06:27:01 - 00:06:59:13

You know, I think it's an exciting time to be a marketer because of that. So, you know, digital tools and platforms, leveraging AI and machine learning, you know, they're providing unprecedented opportunities for us to reach and engage with audiences in creative and innovative ways. You know, I think about how AI to what Amol was always saying can assist with data analysis, content creation, leads, scoring, interactions with customers and then again allowing, you know, freeing up time for marketers to kind of go and focus on that creativity and strategy.

00:06:59:23 - 00:07:28:23

There's also the productivity element. I think that the integration of AI and automation into our marketing processes really enables us as marketers to streamline our tasks, automate those routine activities, and then focus on, again, the more strategic aspects of our roles in terms of some some examples within our own commercial marketing function, our team of data geniuses are doing the intuitive things, so they're using AI, AI for content, summarization, categorization and transcription.

00:07:29:05 - 00:07:54:12

We have a chat bot that summarizes our marketing literature, eliminating the cumbersome process of finding and digesting large volumes of information. They're also doing the not so intuitive things, so layering AI into existing and bespoke marketing apps. And this results in marketers spending less time navigating our tool and pulling out those insights and filling out forms by asking simple questions to the chat bot.

00:07:54:12 - 00:08:20:24

And the chat bot does the work almost instantaneously. So the shortens that distance between discovery insight and action. And then I guess there's other things that they're working on for the sake of experimentation and learning. But I think there's just again, so many opportunities for us just to embrace and transform our, our organizations. Alison: And Audrey and Amol, even in a tech company, change can still be intimidating,

00:08:20:24 - 00:08:43:16

So to what degree are you finding your teams excited and really embracing the opportunities? And to what degree is it? Can it be a little overwhelming or a little bit intimidating? Amol: Yeah, I mean, you know, just building on the on the last part what Audrey said, I think, you know, transforming the way we traditionally think about how we reach customers is difficult.

00:08:43:16 - 00:09:08:19

Right? I brought up customer experience before as an example, and we have the data that says 91% of consumers are more likely to shop with brands that provide relevant recommendations and offers is an example. Right? And that's not a surprise. We all know that we all get bombarded with different echos, but from our perspective, it's changing the way we traditionally do things, everything from SEO to how we leverage websites.

00:09:08:19 - 00:09:36:09

And Audrey talked about chat bots, but across our entire organization, whether it's, you know, Microsoft 365 teams, PowerPoint word through LinkedIn, you know, we can take you through cases of how we've had to change things. So like for example, personal productivity, speech, transcription captioning within teams, content design and production within PowerPoint, within Xbox, we've leveraged generative AI for those personal recommendations that I've talked about within LinkedIn.

00:09:36:09 - 00:09:59:16

We've talked about image captioning and accessibility and leveraging AI. From that perspective. You know, outlook is a simple thing around contextual assistance as an example Bing as you've seen with chatbot and Bing chat, conversational intelligence. So there's all these different ways that we're leveraging it, but that does require a lot of people to change. So it's going to be, as I said, it's going to be an evolution, it's a mindset change as a whole.

00:09:59:16 - 00:10:20:19

But we're slowly getting there. Alison: And those are great examples how A.I. is really impacting Microsoft's approach to product and marketing. What are you doing to ensure that you're staying competitive as AI continues to have all that incredible speed?

Audrey: I was chatting with an agency head the other day and you know, they were they were sharing how as enabling them to produce content and half the time at half to cost.

00:10:21:03 - 00:10:43:11

So that's a win win for both agency and client. So I think that again, when we just look at the possibilities, it's not necessarily just within any given function within an organization, but also, you know, the the relationships and then also, you know, kind of time to market cost to market within the partnerships that we have. That's a very compelling example.

00:10:43:11 - 00:11:03:13

Alison: Audrey, thank you so much. So Amol, when we first Folke, I described you as an AI guru and you very quickly told me that given how fast the field is moving, it's absolutely impossible for anyone to truly be a guru. So with how rapidly things are evolving and expanding, is it possible in your mind to be a true expert?

00:11:04:11 - 00:11:20:21

Amol: Yeah, I mean, I think there's, you know, here's what I would kind of how I've responded to this. And we have a really good framework within Microsoft which talks about different rooms of the house is where we call it and you know, the conversation with a CIO is going to be very different than a conversation with the CMO.

00:11:20:21 - 00:11:47:14

Right. And I think part of that is we're consistent, like we're constantly learning about the different use cases. I mean, every single week we get hundreds if not thousands of new AI use cases. And so, yes, we can be experts. There's a technical piece to this, but there's also a business side to this. And I think, you know, it's the it's the first time that I've seen in a long time that we're the bridging of the technical and the business side is coming together so rapidly.

00:11:47:14 - 00:12:09:13

So in that sense, I would say, yes, we can we can be experts, but it is this idea of you have to constantly learn and evolve the conversation. And so we're at a point right now where, again, we're learning from customers, we're learning from partners, we're learning from consumers around how they use it, the types of use cases, the benefits, the cost advantages, the arc.

00:12:09:13 - 00:12:28:17

All of this is kind of, you know, we're working through our real time, right? And so, you know, I think there's a balance. Yes. Can you call yourself an expert, a guru? Absolutely. But there is always a little but to that. And I think having that mindset and learn it all culture that I talked about earlier is the but. Alison: Absolutely great, especially on the learn it all culture,

00:12:28:17 - 00:12:53:21

That's such an important element for all of us when it comes to embracing and really benefiting from any new technology. And certainly it's true in this case as well. So there's also obviously going to be quite a demand for organizations finding top talent. So what recommendations do you have for companies that are looking to attract and find the right talent to pursue this new opportunity?

00:12:53:21 - 00:13:15:02

Alison: And Amol I'd love you to take the lead on that question if you'd like. Amol: I would say from a talent perspective, you know, and I'll speak from strictly a marketing lens, right? I think some of those qualities that we talked about earlier in terms of how do you think about transformation in marketing as a whole is kind of one of those key differentiators that I think I'm going to be looking for and I'm hoping others are looking for, too, right?

00:13:15:02 - 00:13:35:00

And so when you think about generative A.I. in the traditional marketing sense, whether it's from an agency perspective or from it's from a pure technology perspective, it's ensuring people obviously understand the technology, understand how they can understand the use cases, but again, apply the application of that into the day to day marketing is going to be extremely important.

00:13:35:00 - 00:14:02:04

And so those qualities around just mindset I think is going to be important. Understanding how they can transform the marketing function. Using generative AI is going to be equally important. And then I think we just need to think broader about, you know, the traditional industries and ways we think about attracting talent. Right? And going back in my 17 years at Microsoft, we always had this kind of profile of what a marketer looked like and where they needed to come from.

00:14:02:04 - 00:14:20:23

And I think that whole that that's going to evolve and that's going to change into different roles within different companies and how we bring them in. Audrey: And I think I think I'd just like to add to that too. I think it also gives us the opportunity to elevate the kind of the need for critical thinking because, you know, well, air is a tool, right?

00:14:20:23 - 00:14:45:21

And so, you know, well, it's got a lot of kind of great capabilities that it brings to the table. We still need to apply critical thinking skills. And I think that's the fun part of marketing. Amol:

Yeah, and that's a great idea. Just building off of that, like the stuff we discussed earlier around how, you know, marketers typically used to spend their time around content design, production, editorial assistants, personalized recommendations.

00:14:45:21 - 00:15:10:05

They've spent a lot of time doing that, and that's going to change, right? And so how do you shift the role into more critical thinking and more strategic? And and so that thought needs to and that profile is going to change considerably. So, yeah, I completely agree with that point. Alison:

And building on that, Audrey, if you were mentoring a new marketer or speaking to an experienced marketer, what advice would you give them?

00:15:12:15 - 00:15:42:10

Audrey: Yeah, I'll go back to what Amol had said earlier. Just embrace being a learn it all. You know, the field is rapidly evolving. Continuous learning is going to be key. I think that generative AI holds immense and just immense potential for marketers to again streamline processes, enhance creativity and deliver more personalized and engaging experiences. I think, like anything, it's important to approach its adoption thoughtfully and strategically, as we've been saying throughout, to achieve those desired outcomes that that were kind of setting out to achieve.

00:15:42:18 - 00:16:03:12

I was reading not long ago a McKinsey study that it is from a few years ago, but it cites that of all of the companies functions, marketing perhaps has the most to gain from it. And I think that, you know, when we look at our core activities of understanding customer needs and matching them to products and services and then persuading people to buy, those are all capabilities that AI can dramatically enhance.

00:16:04:00 - 00:16:23:11

But to the kind of previous point, we can't lose sight of the fact that it's a tool and we need to apply critical thinking skills, which is again, the fun part of what we do. So my advice is really get curious, be creative. Generative AI has so much potential to enhance all of that creativity and enable content generation and drive those efficiencies.

00:16:24:19 - 00:16:44:10

Alison: You're so right. And for anyone that I've talked to that's worried about well, I face my role as a marketer. I've always said no. I want a marketer who understands and leverages AI could though. So Amol it’s always fun to hear about company is that are doing A.I. well. So I'd love to hear your opinion on from a Canadian in a more global perspective.

00:16:44:10 - 00:17:05:21

Exactly that. Who do you think is doing A.I.? Well, currently? Amol: Yeah. Great question. I think there is, what's so exciting is this is not unique to one industry right now. What we're seeing across our entire customer base, not only in Canada but across the world, is different industries really embracing it and looking for ways to apply it in their core business.

00:17:05:21 - 00:17:31:14

Right? And so, you know, I think about areas within just, you know, CPG as an example. You know, you think Pepsi was one good example where they're taking, you know, machine learning and A.I. to identify consumer shopping trends and, you know, produce real time store level insights. And so when we talked about predictions as an example, that's a way to improve predictions and recommendations considerably leveraging the data that they already have.

00:17:32:01 - 00:17:58:09

You know, one industry is airlines, which, you know, a lot of our frustration is around aircraft turnaround and whether they're on time. Well, you know, leveraging data insights will help that. And we've seen a lot of our global airline customers leveraging technology as it relates to AI to help with that. One great example was CarMax, which is one of our customers and how they use the Azure Open AI Service.

00:17:58:09 - 00:18:27:12

And so think about, you know, they had over 100,000 customer reviews and think about how they need to sell cars. And so leveraging the air, they were able to take those 100,000 plus customer reviews and create short descriptions that surface key takeaways for each make model year of the vehicle, which for a customer is really, really good and helps them make a decision around purchase.

00:18:27:20 - 00:18:54:14

What was really cool, the stat they gave us was it would have taken an individual 11 years to do what AI did in a day, which is phenomenal. Right? And what they what the AI produced was 80% good, which meant they didn't have a lot of intervention. It was pretty much good to go right off the bat. So it helped that, you know, so all of that is to say it helped with the customer experience, it helped with revenue, it helped with increasing SEO.

00:18:54:14 - 00:19:15:17

So all of those core functions that again, we would have spent tons of time executing on, they're able to do in a day. And that was a great example. And then I'll bring in, you know, one of a local company within Canada, which is Viral Nation. And you know, from a pure marketing services perspective, they're doing some really cool things around evolving how companies need to think about marketing.

00:19:15:17 - 00:19:41:06

And so taking the traditional marketing model and underpinning it with more of a modern, AI driven approach around the tech to drive greater impact and innovation as it relates to social brand influencers, etc. They're really changing the game in terms of how we should think about that. And so across all these industries and you know, there's more across health care, across energy, everyone is leveraging this in different ways, which is, which is really cool to see.

00:19:41:13 - 00:20:01:07

Alison: So I'd love to end by asking each of you, what do you see as a key takeaway that you'd like marketers to know about generative AI? Audrey, you want to kick us off? Audrey:

Absolutely. Again, get curious, just embrace it. I think. Try it and to partner up with people within your organization that, as I call our analytics team, are our data geniuses and explore, you know, kind of play in the sandbox.

00:20:01:07 - 00:20:19:02

Alison: Great advice. Amol, What would you add to that? Amol: Yeah, I would just say for everyone to just understand we're at an inflection point. You know, I mentioned it, the breakthroughs and I are going to change the way people work and live. It's really the defining technology of our time. And so really be optimistic about what AI can do.

00:20:19:02 - 00:20:39:08

It is meant to help people industry, society as a whole. Personally, Audrey and I see this every day where, you know, Microsoft's committed to making the promise of AI real and doing it responsibly. And so it's really having that optimistic, curious mindset I talked about earlier on the AI and what it can actually do to help people in the world as a whole.

00:20:39:08 - 00:20:56:17

So that would be my takeaway at a very high level. Alison: Audrey and Amol, you've given us lots to think about, some really great advice and some great actionable ways to embrace and benefit from generative AI. So a great big thank you to both of you for spending time with us today and sharing your expertise that really, really appreciate it.

00:20:56:17 - 00:21:25:05

And I know our listeners and our marketing community are benefiting from it as well. So we're really just starting to understand the potential and the challenges. And I'm certainly excited, as I know both of you are, about how the marketing profession can learn and progress together. So on that note, the CMA has got some terrific generative AI resources that marketers can benefit from that really can complement this conversation and our podcast as well as we've now got a number of thought leadership articles on a wide range of topics on our website.

00:21:25:14 - 00:21:45:15

And we've launched some training as well. So we've got a new series, a new training course this fall that's going to be specific to CMO's and VP's and we're bringing back a training session from the spring that was very successful and that's how I can make you a better marketer. And then we've also got an AI working group and they've introduced a series as well.

00:21:45:15 - 00:22:12:12

So obviously I'm representing the Canadian marketing profession. We're working closely with all of our members and making sure that we can help enable them throughout the journey and I train them all. You've been a big part of that today, having members and thought leaders and expertise like you as part of our broader membership is a really great way to share learning across the profession and enable us to all succeed together. So again, a great big thank you to both of you and I hope you have a good afternoon.

00:22:12:20 - 00:22:33:11

So thanks, Alison. Awesome. Thank you. You too. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA dot Com and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA and Susan Irving, CMO of Kruger Products L.P., discuss Susan's recent experience as a judge and her ongoing work as jury chair for the Cannes Young Lions competition in Canada at the 2023 Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity.

00:00:02:20 - 00:00:19:08

Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.

00:00:22:11 - 00:00:57:06 

Alison: So it is an absolute pleasure to welcome Susan Irving, the Chief Marketing Officer from Kruger Products to the CMA Connect podcast today. And Susan, I want to start by welcoming you back from Cannes, and thank you very much for joining us on CMA Connect, while I'm sure you're still managing jet lag and I suspect a very full inbox.

Susan: I'm still on a high from Cannes, it's a pretty magical place, but it's just an incredible, inspirational place to come back and really think about how we can do things differently here in Canada. But not too differently given how well Canadian agencies and partners have done.

00:00:57:18 - 00:01:17:19

Alison: Absolutely. I'm very excited to speak with you today because you really have had two roles at Cannes, which give you a truly unique perspective. So obviously, you were a judge for the Lions sports, but you also were the jury chair for the Cannes Young Lions competition for Canada. And you've been on the Board and a key part of that organization for a number of years.

00:01:18:01 - 00:01:41:21

Alison:

So, very excited to get your perspective on both of those.

Susan: I'm excited to be here and share the learnings because we're very proud of how Canada has done this year. 

Alison: So let's start with the judging on the jury for the Entertainment Alliance for Sports. 

Susan: I'll tell you right now, I was very excited to be chosen as a member of the jury, and I'm just thrilled that I was able to be in the Entertainment for Sports jury.

00:01:42:06 - 00:02:01:23

Susan: And I'm going to tell you right now, it's not for the faint at heart. They don't tell you that you've got to judge 300 cases before you even get to Cannes. You take bias training, which is just incredible to really understand kind of your biases as you're judging. And you actually also have to judge work from your country and work from your company just so that they can see what's going on on the back end.

00:02:01:23 - 00:02:23:22

So I'm very impressed at how they really have this down to a science to ensure that everything is equitable and fair. So you go through, we had about 300 cases before getting to Cannes. I had a month to get through them. I'd say at least an hour a day. I'd say it probably took 15 minutes per case. And then the week before Cannes, I had to judge another 83 for the short list.

00:02:24:06 - 00:02:46:14

So definitely not for the faint at heart. Arrived on a Friday and then was in the jury room all day Saturday and all day Sunday. We actually had a fire at our hotel on the Friday night. So I was feeling good and went to bed early, but then was on a beach until 3am. But it was a good opportunity to get to know our fellow jury chair and the rest of the jury.

00:02:47:00 - 00:03:22:04

But literally on the Saturday, we had 83 on the short list. We needed to get that short list down to 60 and then even say, you know, are there other cases that you potentially scored a 7 to 9 that could be added back in? And then so once you land on your 60, which took us til about 11:00 at night, the following day, we were in the room from ten until 11, and that was from your short list, deciding how many bronze, how many silver and how many gold, and what happens is, as you decide that you're going to have 20 that come up to bronze, of that 20, 10 come up to silver,

 00:03:22:11 - 00:03:47:01

and then of that ten silver, four, well, three go up to gold and then one goes up to Grand Prix. So it's pretty phenomenal. And I think what I learned, you know I always talk about the importance of diversity on a board or diversity on a jury, but the importance of diversity of thought. And what was really impressive about our jury was just hearing the change of perspectives, right?

00:03:47:09 - 00:04:07:05

A case that you may have fallen in love with, listening to a different perspective from someone who comes from a different background and really understanding and having the ability and courage to actually change your mind. And that happened a lot in the jury room, which was really impressive. It was a bucket list for me. I think I've now met friends.

00:04:07:05 - 00:04:27:24

We're still texting and talking about the experience and really bonded and saw each other over the past couple of days, either it was at the press conference or at the awards, and then just bumping into each other and still talking and texting and emailing today on ideas. So I feel like I've got industry friends forever.

Alison: And what are some of the key trends that you saw in the top work that was recognized?

00:04:28:04 - 00:04:51:04

Susan: If I look at the trends, Cannes Young Lions asked all of us to send in our trends that we saw from the work. And I think there's three predominant trends in terms of the work. If you look at Dreamcaster from Michelob, Shout from Overstar or Leah, which is from Kotex. You know, the three big trends, I'd say the first one was the power sport to drive purpose and to do good in the world.

00:04:51:22 - 00:05:12:14

Gone are the days of sports being just about slapping your logo and saying that you sponsor something. Brands are really trying to do good in the world and making a difference to ensure that there's an elevated purpose and you're actually leveraging the power of sport as a platform to make the world a better place. And you really saw that as a focal point in the work.

00:05:13:08 - 00:05:34:11

The second part was D&I woven beautifully into the campaign. So if you look at the Dreamcaster case, it's such a relevant example of someone who's blind, who became a broadcaster, and with the technology of AI and what they were able to do, he was blind and was able to telecast and broadcast the game. And he's still doing that today.

00:05:34:11 - 00:06:09:14

So, you know, although there was actually a diversity and inclusion category, many of the cases just did a heroic job of weaving diversity and inclusion just fluidly throughout their cases. And then the last one, you know, I think we keep talking about AI, but the use of AI in technology, if you look at Dreamcaster as an example, if you look at what they did with Nike and Serena, showing her competing against herself when she was younger to older, there is just this amazing technology and being used for the good.

00:06:09:15 - 00:06:35:11

There was also a Colgate case where they leveraged rugby helmet equipment for people that were deaf. So it was just an amazing way of leveraging sport and making it more inclusive, and leveraging the use of technology to advance the sport as well and an effective use of AI. I think we're all afraid of AI a little bit right now, but some really brilliant examples.

00:06:35:12 - 00:06:58:16

There's another cricket case from Martel, of which it was a famous cricket match, and they were able to use and leverage pictures to retell the match that happened years ago. So just some really brilliant examples of the three trends.

Alison: They're spectacular trends and great examples. And it's when you step back from Cannes and talk about being on the jury that it's clearly very prestigious.

00:06:58:16 - 00:07:15:21

It's a great goal list. So congratulations on accomplishing it. And it can also be the perception that, oh, think about how much fun that will be and it's certainly inspiring. But the intensity to which you describe the amount of work required before you even hop on the plane to go and then the amount of work that you're doing there.

00:07:16:01 - 00:07:37:16

And I'm sure fascinating debates and discussions. But there is an intensity to that that I'm sure has you with some global friends and fellow jurists from around the world that you will be friends with for a very long time. And extended great outcome, too.

Susan: Yeah, it really was a bucket list and something that just over overdelivered on my expectations.

00:07:37:16 - 00:07:59:13

Alison: And I do love, obviously we come from a very diverse country, so it's such an important theme for us and certainly for our Canadian marketing profession. And some of the examples you shared of how other countries and marketers are really embracing that for the betterment of society and their businesses and brands is incredibly motivating as well. So thank you for sharing.

Susan: No problem.

00:08:00:19 - 00:08:17:00

Alison: Now I'd like to hear some of the new learning that you're bringing back from Cannes that you're most excited to put into action.

Susan: Yeah, I'd say, you know, oh my gosh, there's so many trends. If you went to all the speaking engagements that I, I think sums it up probably with five as I went from speaker to speaker.

00:08:17:00 - 00:08:40:20

And, you know, going to the awards shows that I think the number one, a lot of people keep thinking that creativity is gone or brand is gone. But what really shines through in a conference was this continued importance of creativity for good. And, you know, I think what we realize is brands can move the needle when it comes to making the world a better place.

00:08:41:03 - 00:09:18:01

Now you've got to figure out where in the spectrum you fit and the voice that you have and when you should crawl, walk or run. But what I really noticed in a lot of the work, and I think we've all seen it was Always “like a girl”, Dove “real beauty”. The Leah Kotex spot that was that just won a gold is, you know,  brands can really help drive and solve problems not just for consumers but for communities and our planet, you know, community initiatives, inclusivity and sustainability to make the world a better place are really here for the long run.

00:09:18:09 - 00:09:40:02 

What was evident to is, I think in past years and because that with Sick Kids did such an incredible job to I'd say, start the trend here in Canada. You know on the longest time it was the not for profits that seem to be having that voice and taking the risk versus the brands that were sticking with functional.

00:09:40:02 - 00:10:01:06

And I'm not saying you shouldn't do functional advertising, but it felt like we really seen a step change in terms of now it's not just the not for profits that brands are figuring out their voice and where they can actually do creative for good in the world and still drive sales because they're leveraging the benefit and the brand can really play in that space.

00:10:02:03 - 00:10:32:21

The second one we talked about technology, and AI are here to say I gave a couple of examples of some winning cases that we saw at Cannes, but it was very evident that although we have not fully figured this out yet, it really is time to dabble and play with it. I went to a session with Google. A couple of sessions were positive, couple of sessions where we're scaring you with A.I. and making sure that you really understand security and making sure that it's safe for the consumer.

00:10:32:21 - 00:10:58:12 

But at the end of the day, I think it's time for us all to start dabbling and figuring out how we can leverage AI to make our campaigns even better. The third one is, I'd say post-pandemic. Everything that's been going on recession, inflation, COVID. I think there's been a lot of seriousness in the tone of our advertising. But what you started to see this year was humor again.

00:10:58:12 - 00:11:19:08

You know, there was a great M&M's case about their spokes people and they were fired and then returned. But you really do see that consumers are ready for some humor again. So I think we're going to see a lot more of that moving forward. The fourth one is media tactics and influencers. I mean, it was evident at Cannes this year.

00:11:19:08 - 00:11:44:16

There is obviously the speeches at the palace, but the beats, I mean, tick tock, Snapchat, Pinterest, sports beats, influencers. Tons of the campaigns that were really leveraging the power of the different media tactics as well as influencers. So again, that's here to stay and something that we need to be leveraging. I mean, we've talked about how digital is on the rise, but really an effective use of the different channels.

00:11:45:07 - 00:12:05:13

And then the last one was just to balance of, of the winning work. You know, Kraft Heinz is a great example of everything that Rethinkdid, but just a lot of balance between there was pure functional work, emotional work and then purposeful work. And there was a nice balance of everything. It wasn't just all purpose or it wasn't just all emotional.

00:12:05:18 - 00:12:28:16

It was nice to see just that the balance of the work in terms of functional, emotional and purposeful.

Alison: That's right. I love your call it around air. You're absolutely right that it's changing so quickly. It's expanding so quickly that the best thing we can all do as marketers and as business people is get in and start playing and learning because it will ultimately make us better at what we do from a creativity perspective.

00:12:28:16 - 00:12:59:02

But it has some broader benefits from an overall business perspective as well. And then your Shoutout around brand, too, right? Like so the pendulum has swung very much towards growth marketing and now brands are realizing that purpose-driven and brand-focused work also can connect with consumers and ultimately drive really strong business results as well. So having a balance of both, that's not one or the other really is how do they work together and the best interests of the people that they want to attract and drive the business forward.

00:12:59:10 - 00:13:18:16

Susan: Exactly. I don't think you know, I think that when the Internet came right, when the Internet closed, when people were saying, oh, it's not here to stay, or when Facebook and Pinterest and Instagram, I mean, I think people got a little afraid about that shift from television to digital. But we figured it out. And I think I was kind of in that same, same place.

00:13:19:06 - 00:13:38:22

You know, obviously there's a little bit of angst or what are the job losses going to be? But, you know, at the end of the day, there has to be a human behind it. So if you can start playing with it, figuring it out, and then from that point, figuring out the role that your brand plays with that and the campaigns because there's so much winning work out there.

00:13:39:18 - 00:14:01:05

Alison: When I think of I, it's around the concern around, am I going to lose my job? I know I don't think you're going to lose your job. You could lose your job to a marketer who understands A.I. if you don't embrace it and have the curiosity and the desire to learn and start playing and experimenting and also do remember, it's like it's so new that none of us know where it's going to go.

00:14:01:10 - 00:14:21:04

There's no really such thing as an expert in A.I. So it's early enough that we can all get in and learn together. So if you if you choose to stand on the sidelines, that's going to be the bigger issue.

Susan: Yes. So go play.

Alison: Go play, go play. Absolutely. So once again, Canada performed incredibly well on short lesson with Lions.

00:14:21:11 - 00:14:48:23

And we also had some pretty remarkable Canadian firsts at this year's time. So I'd love to hear what you think Canadian agency and some marketers are doing and why we’re doing some of the best work globally. 

Susan: Such a proud moment for Canada. And, you know, I remember sitting at the Globe and talking to Andrew Saunders and as they were going through the numbers, I think we were fifth or six last year overall countries.

00:14:48:23 - 00:15:14:10

And if you look at the fact that we're 10% of the US population, we still have far less awards than we do. And we we just we really do. We punch above our weight when it comes to our awards at Cannes. And it gives me goose bumps to say that this is our best year ever. I think the last was in 2018 or 19 where we had 52 lions and 141 short lists.

00:15:14:21 - 00:15:37:21

This year we had 56 lions, which is the highest we have ever had ever. Two of those include our Cannes Young Lions, winners of which we won a silver in film and a gold in marketing.

Alison: The first ever gold

Susan: first ever gold. And we'll talk about that a little later in the in the podcast. But a total of just a couple of stats.

00:15:37:21 - 00:16:02:23

A total of 13 agencies won 56 lions and total of which we won one Grand Prix, which was FCB. We won 12 gold, 22 silver and 19 bronze. And I think what what did I say? I think it was 2002 short list, which is just incredible. 25 shots landed on short lists, of which there was 202.

00:16:02:23 - 00:16:33:06

So just amazing. And the top agencies that led the way for Canada were FCB, Rethink and BBDO. So just an incredible work

Alison: and a great mix of agencies, too. Like it's good representation of our marketplace and certainly the independents as well as some of the Canadian offices of big multinationals. 

Susan: Exactly. Just a really nice balance of indie's. And we think I think also one indie agency, I think they came in second behind that, which was just incredible.

00:16:33:13 - 00:16:55:15

So, yeah, Rethink just a powerhouse as well as FCB. And then BBDO did really well in terms of winning the most awards for a top campaign.

Alison: It was there's no doubt that we're a global powerhouse in breaking into the top five is pretty remarkable.

Susan: Yes, it's incredible. And just, you know, the rest of the agencies, I mean, 13 agencies won awards.

00:16:55:15 - 00:17:39:20

So pretty incredible. You know, the second part of your question is just in terms of Canada, and I really believe and saw it, Canada is a powerhouse and we should be really proud of our marketers and our agency partners because, you know, if you see the amount of talent that we export to the US and internationally, I mean, people have thriving careers here in Canada, but, you know, we have marketers in the US that are CMO right now and VP's and head of agencies and now men and predominantly a lot of women and you know you look at Stephen Erlich who's leading Havas, you look at Diana Frost who's leading Canada and

00:17:39:21 - 00:18:06:02

US for Kraft, Sofia Colucci who is now the CMO of Molson Coors, it's just phenomenal. But Jeff Klein who's in charge of Popeye's. I mean, there's so many Canadian talent that are that are out there that are doing great things in the marketplace. I think the other thing is, is that sets us apart is I really feel that Canadians just have the bravery and confidence and boldness.

00:18:06:02 - 00:18:33:05

It's kind of this innate nature. And, you know, I also think it's our innate nature to be inclusive because of the country that we come from and that really showcased in the work. And then on top of that, really our ability to flex from functional to emotional to purposeful. And as I said, that was something that you really saw in our cases and our Lions that were winning work.

00:18:33:05 - 00:18:59:05

There is there was a lot of great kind of one offs, amazing stunts and something that really drove the functional benefit or the, you know, the icon of certain brands. And then you really saw some very powerful emotional and purposeful work. What else? I think I think the other thing when I when I look at the why is, you know, Canada, sometimes you're you're pushed to just lift and shipped from U.S. or global markets.

00:18:59:05 - 00:19:33:20

And I think when we have the opportunity either to create our own, we really try to really put our best foot forward. And I think that sets us apart. I think we're great collaborators and I think agencies and and clients work really well together in Canada. They're not afraid to doing smart, intelligent and brave work. And as I said before, given our Canadian population openness to creating community and culture, we're not afraid at all of embracing D&I, which we saw really shone on the awards at award stage this year at Cannes.

00:19:34:20 - 00:20:04:14

Alison: It's amazing. And you've got a great out around how closely and how much better and more collaboratively Canadian agencies and clients work together. What do you think are some of the reasons behind that? 

Susan: I think it's really just the nature of of Canadians being kind and and wanting to get to the best work. And, you know, unless you collaborate and really listen to different points of view, you're not going to get to that to that next level of work.

00:20:05:14 - 00:20:30:00

So I think it's just innate in our nature. And, you know, I think I tease how we force all of our agencies to collaborate together. I think over the years you see a lot of a great idea can come from anywhere and then you play a position. And fundamentally, I just think Canadian marketers want to do really great world work and what agency partner doesn't want to do that as well?

00:20:30:18 - 00:20:54:23

Alison: Absolutely agree. So in addition to your very intense judging role for the Lion Sports at Cannes, you were also this year's jury chair for the Cannes Young Lions competition for Canada. And I know you've been involved with the organization for quite some time and should be very proud of how Canadians young talent has progressed through your leadership. It also gives you a really unique view on our country's emerging creative talent.

00:20:55:13 - 00:21:23:04

And it was certainly a very exciting way to end the weekend for Canada in Cannes last week. So I'd love to hear a bit about what excites you the most about Canada's young creatives. 

Susan: Yeah, well, first I you know, I want to thank Mark Childs, who is just an icon in the industry from a marketing perspective. The Globe and Mail and Mark brought me on over ten years ago as a judge on this competition, and it is by far my favorite competition.

00:21:23:05 - 00:21:45:23

I do a lot of judging just to see other works and figuring out insights and how it can apply to my business to make me smarter. But this one is just it's so amazing because it's, you know, you've got to be under 30 in this competition and it's the future generation of Canadian marketers. And I've been fortunate enough to be on it for ten years.

00:21:45:23 - 00:22:11:05

Jury Chair For the past three, we've got a core group that are really pushing and doing the training so that we can be on the podium and thankful for the Global and Mail for being sponsor and advocates for can not just putting the judges forward, but also for this competition. And paying for our competitors to go. If you win the Canadian competition, then the top teams go to Cannes to compete on the global stage.

00:22:11:21 - 00:22:43:04

And what was phenomenal this year is we had a couple of bronzes and in marketing we have never won. And this year we did win, which was just phenomenal. So Ryan and Mike from MLSE won gold, our team and film won silver, and then we were shortlisted for media and digital. So just a phenomenal year for our our young marketers and Mary Diver runs the creative and Kathy Collier is the jury chair for Media Survey.

00:22:43:04 - 00:23:01:14

They do a phenomenal program as well when it comes to the competition. So just thrilled that they just did so well. It's funny when when we were sitting at the awards, Aaron, from Crowdiate, and I was standing there, he's been on the judging on the jury for four years as well.

00:23:02:04 - 00:23:19:02

And when we saw that they were shortlisted, we thought that that was a bad thing, not a good thing. And so we thought they didn't win. But in hindsight, it really meant that they had a chance. So when we saw bronze, we were let down and we saw the short list, but then we saw the bronze and then we saw the silver, and then all of a sudden they won.

00:23:19:13 - 00:23:50:21

I felt like I was a crazy soccer parent. As Aaron and I were jumping over tables and running through the crowd so we could get up there and take a picture and just barged in front of everyone. So that taking center stage to take a picture of our teams. So just I would say that the highlight of my week because you know, these guys work their butts off in Canada, they've got their own job, they do this case, they get a case that they've got to work on for 24 hours and basically the same thing in Cannes, they get a case.  

00:23:50:22 - 00:24:30:00

There's a charity. They've got to match their brand to solve the charities problem and then have 5 minutes to present. So it's a lot of work, but obviously a lot of reward. 

Alison: Such an outstanding accomplishment just both so well for the young talent we're growing in this country. 

Susan: Yeah, it's just incredible. So, you know, and if you look at it from a media perspective, from film, from digital, you know, I think across the agency mix and marketing mix, we should be very proud of of the talents that's going to be the future leaders of Canada and who knows US, local firms…

00:24:30:00 - 00:24:51:00

The sky's the limit for what I can see from this young talent. 

Alison: Absolutely. Now, given your long tenure and experience with that organization, I'd love to hear how young creatives and young marketers are approaching the profession and creative differently than other generations.

Susan: I'd say, you know, not that it's old. It's something that we should all be going back to.

00:24:51:03 - 00:25:12:20

You know, I look at a lot of marketers and I think over the years we've gotten into the situation of putting our brands first about what's the brand problem, what's a brand problem with the brand problem? How are we going to grow our brand just because we're so trained that way? What I find different with this generation is they really are putting the consumer first.

00:25:12:20 - 00:25:52:07

They're thinking about, well, what is the consumer problem? And then how can my brand actually help solve the problem for the consumer? And, you know, at the end of the day, that's how we are actually trained as marketers and just watching them compete and the ideas that they're coming up with, it's just so evident in terms of this generation as thinking about others first and then how my brand can solve the problem, which is what's winning it at Cannes right now here, if you look at the work from a purpose perspective, it really is putting the consumer first and then how my brand plays a role within that consumer group.

00:25:52:07 - 00:26:20:16

Alison: It's a great shout out and I will applaud you from Kruger for part of your unapologetically human campaign platform and brand platform. Absolutely does a brilliant job of that. So kudos for that. 

Susan: Thank you very. We're very proud of the work and so far, the comments coming in from the industry. But more importantly, we have customers and consumers calling in on our CRC hotline and everything has just been so, so positive.

00:26:20:22 - 00:26:40:23

And you know, it's funny, sometimes you worry about not having a lot of product in the spot, but it's amazing how people are so emotionally drawn to it because they can relate to it and then see how our products are just so well and truly woven, if you will, into the spot. 

Alison: Brilliantly done. So what advice would you offer to someone early in their marketing career?

00:26:40:23 - 00:27:03:06

You can have great global experience. You're doing an amazing job leading a Canadian brand. So I'd love to end the podcast with your advice to someone earlier in the marketing career. 

Susan: Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing is, is figuring out what you're passionate about. What is your your passion and really turn that into your career and you'll never work a day in your life.

00:27:03:20 - 00:27:27:06

And whether or not you decide to you're a marketer really figure out kind of the type of marketing and the type of company and working for a company that has similar values to yourself. And then secondly, when we were younger, we're in such a rush. We're in such a rush to get promoted and just we're waiting to get to the top of the mountain versus enjoying the journey.

00:27:27:06 - 00:27:50:19

And I know it's a cliché, but it's so true. Just enjoy every single day. And even if you're in a rotation in a role that you don't love, figure out what you're going to learn and what you're going to do differently and find the aspects of that role that you're know you can dig your teeth in and really love and make a difference because it will turn you into a better marketer.

00:27:51:19 - 00:28:17:07

Alison: That's terrific advice. So one final question. Will you be back at Cannes next year? 

Susan: I hope so. 

Alison: I hope to see you there. 

Susan: Yeah, I plan to be there. I think next year it'll be nice. You know, you don't typically judge two years back to back. I'll be excited to be there as jury chair for the Young Lions marketers and on the board advisory board for the Globe and Mail.

00:28:17:07 - 00:28:37:02

But it'll be nice not having so much judging coming up to the competition. But you bet. I hope I actually want to go back next week. It was so phenomenal. 

Alison: And I know you were in incredibly consume judging, so you didn't get a chance to take in many of the speakers and presentations. But of the ones you did get do did you have a favorite speaker?

00:28:38:01 - 00:29:05:03

Susan: I'd say probably. Scott Galloway I was he's he's got a love hate relationship with. He's so candid. But I saw him speak a couple of times. The head of marketing at McDonald's was phenomenal as well. Obviously, P&G shares similar great case studies as well. So yeah, those would probably be some of my my top picks.

Alison: That's a great list.

00:29:05:06 - 00:29:25:00

Well, Susan, thank you so much. I really appreciate you making time for us. And coming fresh off the plane from Cannes, I wish we could both go back next week, but I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and very much look forward to see you later this summer. 

Susan: That sounds great. And let's plant those cans gathered here next year, Alison!

Alison:  That's a brilliant plan.

00:29:25:15 - 00:29:43:08

Thanks, Susan. Thanks, Alison. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA dot com and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership news and industry trends.

Our guest on CMA Connect this week is Matt McGowan, Director and General Manager of Snap Inc. Canada, and an active member on the CMA’s ‘Media Council’. Matt joins John Wiltshire to dig into the topic of augmented reality (AR) in today’s media mix.

What mobile video was to streaming 12 years ago is what, in 2022, augmented reality is as “the new thing in advertising”. We’ve moved beyond ‘helmets’, to glasses, to interplay with augmented reality on smartphones. Matt talks about why Snapchat is a camera company: “when you open the app, you open a camera where we empower you to overlay augmented reality; to overlay computing on that world.”

“Yes! You can use augmented reality to entertain yourself, grow some bunny-rabbit ears or dog ears, but you can also use augmented reality to make purchases. Smart cameras with LiDAR sensors can sense depth, size, and so forth. Our Snap camera has something we call ‘Fit Tech’, which can size you. We've seen AR take off with apparel companies and retailers.”

“At Snap, we have a self-serve ads manager very much like our peers. You create an account, put in a credit card, and you're off to the races. You can upload your vertical video from other platforms, as well as your augmented reality. Outside of the ads manager, we also have software called ‘Lens Studio’ which is like a new version of Adobe Photoshop that is much easier to use for non-designers. If you drop a lens alongside your Snap ads, you’re likely to see 40% incremental reach. There’s a definite upside to using AR.”

“There's a lot of chat right now about augmented reality versus virtual reality. We truly believe that layering computing on the world in front of you, or ‘augmenting reality’ is the right approach. In 1998, cell phones had just started to hit the market. That phone has evolved so much over the decades. I firmly believe that evolution isn't going to stop all of a sudden.”

Tune into this episode of ‘CMA Connect’ for the full conversation between Matt McGowan and John Wiltshire.

Our guests on CMA Connect this week are an accomplished marketing duo: Scott Megginson, President of Kantar, Canada and Peter Rodriguez, CMO and Founder of Brand Igniter. We chat about all things partnerships.

The riveting story of how Scott and Peter met over throat lozenges and went on to form a partnership between insights and brand management. And how many great partnerships like this one start with three things: a true respect for the areas of expertise each partner brings, the ability to build on each other's strengths, and a good challenge that helps align the organization.

Scott Megginson talks about how excellent partnership templates exist in a number of sectors, particularly ones that really invest in consumer insights. This includes sectors like technology and financial services.

“There is a big push to standardize things and centralize. Let's say, out of the US and then go from there, as opposed to finding success wherever in the world, and then testing that success outside of that market to expand it. The strategy that Scott and I put together grew a category that no one thought could grow anymore, because of the way it was measured. It had 70% market share; how are you going to grow that? Well, only if you break all of those patterns around it, and stop thinking in a way that is limiting” - Peter Rodriguez

Why cost-cutting (like advertising cuts) may mean a brand is cashing in permanently on brand equity, which may have been built over many years. Scott talks about how this may be a reason we see “many commoditized brands in the market now, not brands who could really demand a huge premium, because we've really gone beyond the point of no return with the cutbacks that we've made.”

Tune into this episode of ‘CMA Connect’ for the full conversation between Scott Megginson, Peter Rodriguez, and John Wiltshire.

Today's guest on ‘CMA Connect’ is Karen Zuccala, Head of Brand Strategy for Google. Our host John Wiltshire, and Karen, take an in-depth look at connected TV, and how it's impacting media investments.

“Connected TV enables brands to have the best of both worlds: The big screen impact of TV, but with the precision and control of digital. And YouTube really brings together the power of reach, relevance and the world’s most connected ad ecosystem.”

For marketers, Karens says it comes down to really knowing where your audience is, and where they are spending their time. It doesn't have to be either YouTube or traditional broadcast. Brands need to consciously consider the right media mix that mirrors where their target audiences are engaging.

“It’s fair to say that for over 60 years, nothing has really changed in the world of media. I love to think about the analogy of what's happened to the evolution of the phone. It started with the rotary phone, and then it moved to the cordless phone, and then came the cell phone, and now the smartphone that we use today. I think what we're going through right now in this revolution of the TV screen is really the same journey the phone once took.”

“The metrics we use to measure connected TV are actually very similar to what we use to measure any type of video campaign. Views, unique users reached, frequency, and brand lift. We know that ad over exposure and frequency is an issue on broadcast. With connected TV, we're able to effectively manage ad frequency across a brand's target audience, which brings in a whole new level of efficiency to advertising.”

Tune into this episode of ‘CMA Connect’ for the full conversation between Karen Zuccala and John Wiltshire.

Today, on CMA Connect, we bring you Vice President of Walmart Connect Canada Dana Toering. Dana specializes in the world of data in marketing, having worked with brands like Adobe, AOL Canada, Accenture Interactive, and fun fact: Kanye West.

John and Dana dig into a case study of Walmart Connect, with some of the strategies and thinking behind the program.

“I always talk about this sort of virtuous flywheel of investment that retail media provides partners, in the sense that, we work with the vendors that sell products on the shelves at Walmart, they invest their dollars with us, and we try through our solutions and channels to leverage our first party data to drive great ROI”

“Since the mid 70s, retailers have been working with merchants, vendors and suppliers, to provide them opportunities to connect with customers, in their stores, in the form of advertising in the form of trade investment, and this (Walmart Connect) is a natural evolution of that for the age of connectivity.”

“I think the key is how we use the mountain of purchase level data we have that is both ecommerce driven, as well as from retail locations. We understand what consumers are buying, when they're buying it, what their basket composition looks like. As we start to create a view of this customer our goal is not to hound them around the internet with ads; our goal is to make their experience better, and provide them offers on behalf of brands, in those moments.”

“I think you're going to see a lot more digital signage in stores. Customers tend to wait a little bit, either they're waiting for the butcher to cut their meat, or their prescription. So there's an opportunity there to create a content experience, and then feather in ads.”

For all of this and more about the opportunities and the obstacles that marketers face around the collection and use of consumer data, tune into this episode of CMA Connect.

Today, on CMA Connect, we bring you highlights from last year’s CMAb2b panel. This roundtable was held one year into the pandemic. Almost exactly a year ago. Listen in on how businesses shifted their focus.

The panel includes our moderator and guest host for the day, Jeff Lancaster from LinkedIn. He is joined by Linda Hazzan, Director of Communications and CMO of the Toronto Public Library, and Andrew Au, President of Intercept Group, a digital marketing agency.

Here’s some of what they dig into:

Constantly changing challenges offer massive disruption and non-traditional partnership opportunities (5:31)

“The Toronto Public Library is the biggest and busiest library in North America, with 100 branches that 75% of our staff work out of. One thing that’s been an impact for us from a marketing and communications perspective is a narrowing of communication channels. We’ve shifted to completely digital and a lot of our customers aren't comfortable on digital channels. We did not have sufficient tools and mechanisms or even practices to be communicating with each other that way. The other is the development of several non traditional partnerships. We partnered with food banks and turned our closed branches into community food banks, with our staff providing support. We also developed partnerships to distribute internet connectivity kits.” - Linda Hazzan

The rise of consumer-centric, marketing-led business (9:43)

“Intercept is a b2b agency. We focus on the global tech industry. One thing we observed is that improving customer experiences has been key. If you want to be customer centric, you've got to be marketing-led, and I think for the first time we saw marketing step up and really take charge.” - Andrew Au

Finding standard organizational definitions for ‘digitization’ (15:07)

What does it mean for a whole organization to understand going fully ‘digital’? Everybody has their own interpretation of what that means. Clear definitions and understanding are key for public organizations in particular, says Linda Hazzan.

A greater understanding of advanced technologies within mainstream operations (21:21)

Jeff Lancaster talks about developments at LinkedIn, “We're building some products - like conversation ads, in which we're starting to introduce AI and chatbot technology to offer a better experience.”

For the full conversation, listen to the episode.

Our guest today is Nicole Aysan. She's a Brand Strategist at Cisco, with a background in environmental science, marketing, and design. A supporter and advocate for climate justice and mental health, in her free time, Nicole designs and organizes environmental activism events and experiences. She also provides thought leadership on the value of creativity in the marketing industry as a member of the Canadian Marketing Association's Creativity Counsel.

Episode Highlights:

For more insight into an exciting and growing area of marketing, in which we can hope to make some real, measurable impact 🎧 listen to Nicole Aysan's conversation with CMA's own John Wiltshire.

In today's episode, we will take you through the journey of a world-class entrepreneur, Hilary Borndahl. She is the founder and CEO of MIIX Analytics and has held leadership roles in market research for 20 years. Host John Wiltshire and Hilary talk about the importance of putting your own mental health first and how she recognized an opportunity to launch a new business at the height of the pandemic.

Episode Highlights:

For more insight from a successful entrepreneur 🎧 listen to Hilary Borndalh's conversation with CMA's own John Wiltshire.

Today's guest is Mitch Joel, author of “Ctrl Alt Delete” and host of “Six pixels of separation”. Mitch is past chair of the Canadian Marketing Association, a lifetime member, and self-confessed ‘biggest fan of the CMA’.

John Wiltshire talks to Mitch about key trends that will unfurl in 2022. Here’s some of what they touch on:

“I think retail provides a very good analogy for all businesses. If you went to something like an Apple Store, suddenly it wasn't experiential, it was very transactional. They were taking my temperature, giving me a mask of their own, not letting me touch things; things were hermetically sealed in saran wrap. And what these retailers realized is they needed to create better experiences online. Omni-channel really means seamless - it's the ability to move from digital to physical, seamlessly, where it feels very connected. And I believe through this pandemic, which I call an era of forced innovation, that every size retailer really figured out how to be truly omni-channel by default. And it transcended retail to hit every industry, whether banking, telco, or agency services.”

Why people buy experiences, not things and services are the new experience. During the pandemic, many people got a pet and Walmart experienced a massive uptick in people buying pet food, toys, and accessories. They used this information to expand their services.

This idea that an influencer is the new publisher and the new gateway to media can be a dangerous place to go. We need to look no further than the Joe Rogan story for a current example.

The parallels between being one of the earliest agencies who were all about social media and democratization of content when it was a safe thing for brands to buy another TV spot - and where we are now with web3 and the NFT world. Mitch’s take is we’re dealing with complex technology that's going to take some time to mature, to a level of sophistication and credibility that’s needed for mainstream adoption in marketing and beyond, and that won’t happen in 2022.

With everyone online via tablets and phones post pandemic, marketers really need to develop a mobile first mentality. Mitch encourages brands to look in the mirror and ask, “Are we mobile first? Because the customer is, and right now, the vast majority of us are not.”

For more on decoding NFTs, how to look back at your first 2 months post-pandemic as a roadmap for business, and what the great compression really is 🎧 take a listen to Mitch Joel's conversation with CMA's own John Wiltshire.

In this episode John Wiltshire hosts Jani Yates, President and Chief Executive Officer of Ad Standards, to discuss ad content regulations, impact, and consumer trust.In order to provide context around pandemic references, please note this conversation took place in October of 2020.

Here are some interview highlights:

For more about advertising laws, trends, and consumer issues 🎧 please listen to Jani Yates' conversation with CMA's own John Wiltshire.

In this episode, John Wiltshire joins Vice President of Public Affairs and Thought Leadership for the CMA, Sara Clodman to discuss the Association’s efforts to advocate for the modernization of Canada’s privacy law and explore the art of government relations and its impact on the topics of most relevance to the marketing community.

Conversation highlights:

To learn more about the Association’s government relations activities and Canadian marketing rules tune in to CMA Connect. Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Ushering a brand and a team from chaos to composure (C2C) and back to chaos again while the world’s economy is unstable doesn’t require a new entrant to the marketing tech stack. It needs leadership. C2C leadership. In this episode, John Wiltshire joins purpose-driven leadership expert and best-selling author Ron Tite, Founder and Chief Creative Officer of Church+State, to discuss how to seize opportunities in chaos and gain the momentum to come out stronger.

Here’s a snapshot of what they cover:

To learn more about C2C leadership and how to put your business on the right track for success🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in May of 2020

On today’s episode of CMA Connect, John Wilshire joins Jan Kestle, President & CEO of Environics Analytics for a discussion about using data to make public spaces safer. She talks about how data and analytics can help organizations understand their customers and get better ROI, how analytics informs marketing strategy, and what marketers can do to prepare for a data-driven future.

Key highlights:

To learn more about data-driven marketing, privacy, and how data can make public spaces safer as we move towards recovery, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

On the mic with John in this episode is Bruce Powell, Co-founder and Managing Partner at IQ PARTNERS, an Executive Search & Recruitment firm.

“We saw a VP of Marketing hired last week to a European company. He’s doing all of his work and his team management remotely from Toronto, Canada. That's a huge opportunity for Canadian marketers. The flip side is that you're now competing with everybody in the world.” - Bruce Powell

Here’s some of what they cover:

1. At any time, a third of people are actively considering whether they're in the right role (4:20)

The numbers have jumped to 50% in the pandemic, which feels like a large number, but it may not be on a relative basis, says Bruce. “Most of us are working remotely, and despite being busier, you'd still have a lot more time to reflect on where you're at, and whether you've advanced as far as you want to in your career. It increases people's willingness to consider whether they're ready for a change.”

2. The current pulse on ‘work from home’ (6:17)

While marketers may have had some flexibility in the past, nobody could have imagined entire teams working from home full-time and being productive. The pandemic has required changes in how people operate. “It's been a wholesale surprise that this actually works.” Companies have now become increasingly flexible.

3. Reflecting on hiring in the marketing industry in comparison to others (7:41)

“Our clients have been consistently hiring across the board, in accounting, sales, and technology, and our business has been consistent. Unfortunately, our marketing recruitment activity is down probably 40%. And that is, I think, a reflection of marketing still (being viewed as) a cost center.”

4. Into the mind of the marketing professional (10:14)

Fear of the unknown is prevalent. More people are reflecting on their careers and think that they would like to make a change. And yet when it comes down to it, there is fear in making that change.

5. Key things employers should bear in mind as they look to fill critical roles (14:04)

“I think it’s important to remember that ‘emotion buys and logic justifies’. No matter how logical the offer may be, or how much it makes sense for this person as the next step in their career to take this offer, you need to invest a little bit more these days in getting them comfortable and emotionally engaged with the company. The second thing is (to think of it) like buying a house in a competitive market. An offer needs to be presented with as few conditions as possible. If you put out an offer, and it's conditional on references, it's going to make the person more anxious. Address those references up front, and then come up with an offer. It will vastly increase your likelihood of success.”

To hear more 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Learn more about Bruce and IQ Partners here

“Do you have people around you that are different from you? Maybe you just go and just listen (to them) for a while. Go and read books. Maybe you just go and discover experiences that are different from yours. It's super uncomfortable and super awkward. But I think those awkward, uncomfortable conversations are totally worth it.” - Darian Kovacs

Joining John this week is Darian Kovacs from the best coast, i.e. the West Coast of Canada! Darian is an accomplished Indigenous business leader, founding partner of Jelly Marketing, and an accomplished podcast host of ‘Marketing News Canada’.

Here’s some of what they discuss:

1. Being thoughtful with a combination of planning, and being able to adapt to the world around you - Darian’s own story (1:47)

Darian went to university to study Child and Youth Care and Art education, thinking he was going into art and play therapy. Through his work in the world of youth, he discovered that much of the work is marketing. Anyone who is in fundraising knows that goes back to the fascinating world of marketing, conversion, and PR. Eventually I realized I wanted to work in an organization that did work in the charity sector but also did work in the corporate sector. So I started Jelly.”

2. The connection between thrifty budgets, collaborations, and good marketing (6:44)

“I found the charity sector, with its thrifty budgets, was able to really lean on corporate ideas, because it was able to say, ‘Hey, here's what you can do with a really small budget. And here's how you can be a little more feisty, a little more grassroots!’ And corporations that have larger budgets could experiment and try things with them.”

3. Bringing change to a white-centric industry (13:13)

When “Marketing News Canada” - the podcast and publication - began, Darian’s team created a Marketing Hall of Fame Award. In their research into different jury members in awards across North America who could be potential jury members for them, they realized that “almost 90% of jury members were white males. The other 10% were white females. For me, it was a real shock because I belong to this industry. And I love it. I just didn't realize how white-centric it was. It was a wake up call for me.

4. Starting to address the lack of Indigineous peoples in the marketing workplace (16:15)

Why don't we have more Indigenous peoples in marketing? Why don't we have as many BIPOC marketers? The issue is with inclusion. Darian talks of how he watched when Sephora created an ad with Indigenous peoples. “It was written by Indigenous people, shot by Indigenous people. But then the sad response was that they forgot one sect of Indigenous people, which is Afro-Indigenous people, and they received negative feedback. But I still think that's a good example. Sephora was trying, and the good thing is that they're one of the only organizations in Canada that included Indigenous people in their advertising, pre-reading, and pre-awareness this year. The lesson here? If you're going to have a BIPOC Committee make sure you include people from every one of those acronyms.”

5. How Darian measures the success of Jelly’s purpose in bringing more Indigenous peoples to the workplace

“Number one, are they hired, and by what salary radar are they hired? Number two, do we have an amazing group of hundreds of stakeholders that actually review, provide constructive criticism, to our syllabi, our modules? It has to be really solid stuff that brands want; that agencies want. And third, a long term measurement play, are we seeing CMOs that are from this program? Are we seeing directors and managers from this program? Are they getting to that place?”

To hear more 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

In part two of this episode arc on data-driven marketing, guest host Jeff Greenspoon - President of Global Solutions, CEO of Canada for Dentsu International and a member of the Board of Directors here at the Canadian Marketing Association is joined by Charlie Grinnell - CEO, Right Metric.

If you haven’t heard the first part, listen to episode 16 first.

Here’s some of what they discuss in this episode.

1. The art side of the marketing equation comes out of the shadows (0:46)

“We've come to a tech agnostic status for a lot of brands, where if you look at the platforms, whether they be Adobe, Salesforce or Amazon, every brand has won, and they're using it to the best of their abilities from a technology perspective, the differentiator and where likely we've stopped investing as much as we should be is in creativity. Ideas are what drive resonance and salience. Oftentimes, we think about data fueling channel decisions and media decisions and targeting, but not enough about the creative that we need to build and the production of that creative that needs to happen.” - Jeff Greenspoon

2. It's expensive to create content. Use data to validate your decision-making (4:20)

“What's so cool about the world that we're in now is there's so much data being churned out on the back-end of content that you can look at, whether that's engagement rate, watch time, video views, shares. There's such an opportunity to use that data to build into our understanding of what's working and what's not.” - Charlie Grinnell

3. The importance of brand purpose (7:21)

“Lush Fresh Made Cosmetics announced in November of 2021 that they were quitting Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok and Snapchat. This was their second time. In 2019, they came off some platforms, then COVID hit, reassessing all their priorities. Lush went back. Now they have come back to the issue. They will keep the social media handles, but will not actively publish on Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok or Snapchat. “How much is that going to cost them? That's no small thing. Some say about 10 million in the short term, which is no small chunk of change. But then when you look at it, it was actually less than 1% of their total sales. I think it's like a great case study for all of us to be watching.” - Charlie Grinnell

4. Spend time building trust (17:23)

“Relationship is communication - whether it's with your spouse, your friends. The best relationships have a deep level of trust pretty quickly. When I was on the brand side, anytime we worked with an agency, I would go out of my way to spend a disproportionate amount of time upfront so that they had everything and more than they needed. I wanted to make sure that I was over communicating, because I wanted to give them all the context and nuance in my brain.” - Charlie Grinnell

5. Predicting trends - TikTok, the audio revolution, and more (19:39)

“TikTok. It's the wild west there. And, I think the brands that are going to be bold on that platform and test things will see success. You might fail, but even if you fail, you’ll learn. As we head into 2022, TikTok has already taken over the entertainment side, I think they're really going to focus on that commerce side. Running tests there and getting your feet wet on that platform is how I'd be thinking about it.” - Charlie Grinnell

To hear more 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Learn more about Charlie and RightMetric here

We have our first guest host at the CMA Connect podcast!

Jeff Greenspoon is President of Global Solutions, CEO of Canada for Dentsu International and a member of the Board of Directors here at the Canadian Marketing Association.

In part one of this short episode arc on data-driven marketing, he’s joined by guest Charlie Grinnell - CEO, Right Metric to discuss how to overcome digital growth challenges in today's climate and beyond.

They dig deep into our obsession with data-driven marketing and define the difference between the good and the great. “Over the next 5-10 years, we're going to see this kind of convergence of internal and external data coming together to give marketers a more holistic picture of what's actually going on, which is going to arm them to make the right decision for their business”, says Charlie

Here’s some of what they discuss:

1. How to separate what's good from what's great (4:20)

What is nice to have versus the things that really make an impact on business today? What we can learn from big data on how people view the world and interact with it, and use that to challenge some of our societal biases. “Maybe you thought you had a good idea of how things work. But what works today isn't necessarily going to translate to a different industry or a different time.”

2. The obsession with data driven marketing (7:11)

Data allows us to quantify human behavior but data is nothing without data-backed insight. Insight is the area that frontier marketers lean into. “I think a lot of marketers have focused on the value of data, and less on the value of data-backed insight. That needs to be top of mind for all marketers. To get you to that actionable insight or recommendation that makes sense through the business lens.”

3. Niching down and targeting micro audiences (13:13)

With new software updates being implemented yearly with updates like the removal of cookies with iOS 14.5., marketers are beginning to lose visibility. Rather than broadening our targets, marketers are adapting and niching down by targeting specific communities, being more thoughtful, tailored, and strategic.

4. Brand building vs performance marketing. Are they the same now? (15:53)

Jeff and Charlie agree that the short answer is there is a difference between the two, but they do need to be interlinked together. “I think marketing is art for the sake of commerce, commerce being the keyword. Taking that art and science and building it together, that's where we see the best marketing campaigns. Perhaps the best known example that comes to mind is Spotify’s year-end review. Everyone loves when that comes out. It's taking the science side of marketing data, and merging art into it. And every year, it blows up with people sharing. I think that's brilliant.”

5. Critical ammunition for marketers (20:56)

Why we have to remember that “every experience customers have is a brand experience - whether it's there to build preference, there to build salience, or there to build a commerce interaction and make a sale”, says Jeff.

Charlie speaks of the importance of breaking down silos and recounts his experience leading social media at an enterprise. “I was joined at the hip with our head of eCommerce marketing, because she was overseeing email. Previously that wasn't a thing. I wanted to know everything about the behavior on our emails, because chances are it's the same person who's on Instagram or Pinterest with us. It’s about taking those insights and deploying them more holistically. It’s critical ammunition for marketers to be able to plan activities that are going to give their brand a chance to be successful.”

To hear more 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Learn more about Charlie and RightMetric here

Usually the ‘bane of the marketers’ existence, procurement plays a key role in a pandemic environment, particularly in facilitating a healthy agency-client relationship. In this episode, John Wiltshire speaks to Patricia McGregor, Managing Director of Firm Decisions - the largest global specialist in marketing contract compliance. Patricia shares findings from their recent research in the area.

Here’s some of what they discuss:

1. A clear redefinition of procurement (1:55)

Procurement has a very specific role as the conduit between finance and the marketing team. Their primary role is to build and negotiate the commercial relationship between a client and their marketing agency. They should be at the table when negotiations are underway around fees and scope.

2. The non-anecdotal answer to ‘what is everyone else doing?’ (9:07)

How are businesses reacting to nearly two years in a pandemic? How are agencies responding to discussions around fees and reduced spends? Firm decisions commissioned a study of 100 top marketing and PR procurement executives in North America with a combined remit of $27 billion annually. Via in-depth conversations, these leaders break down what they were doing, and where they are going next as a result of COVID.

3. Leaders are reconsidering how they use marketing partners (11:18)

With the focus firmly on digital, leaders are coming out of a rapid shift in consumer behaviours navigating the need for eCommerce and better targeting. This leads to the question “With our current agency relationships, do we have the right fit?” This can sometimes mean more specialized partners and a reduction of any overlap.

4. Research-backed advice for agencies looking to keep relationships with clients over the long term (18:09)

Patricia says “one key to stability is consistency in (your) team so that they understand (the client) business. (You may) also be challenged by the other agencies that are facing change, who may potentially be poaching those resources. Just retaining the people who can understand your business and deliver on your goals is going to be a real challenge. So the talent gap is something we (should be) really watching.”

5. Warning signs for agencies in this environment (19:12)

“There is a fairly strong subset of clients looking for change. It may just be a reassessment, but there is also a thread of ‘review and pitch’. Our research (shows) that this was anticipated within six to 12 months, which we're already seeing happening. There is a real pressure among agencies to compete for resources, to compete for the best talent and to retain that talent.”

To hear more about the specifics of this research, and how to apply it in your agency-client relationships 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Most Canadians are familiar with the Tim Hortons brand. It’s been around since 1964, and quite consistent with what it stands for. Tim’s is about Canadian communities; their restaurants are local meeting hubs. Since the pandemic, that has evolved to people accessing the brand differently - more drive-thru, and online ordering. In this week’s episode, John Wiltshire is joined by Hope Bagozzi, Chief Marketing Officer of Tim Hortons to talk about what’s changed, what’s evolved, and what legacy is being carried on.

Here’s some of what they discuss:

The moment of truth for all brands (4:48)The proof is in the pudding (or coffee!). While methods of delivery may have changed over the years from sitting down in the restaurant itself for a coffee, to picking it up at a window, the moment of truth for Tims is in “getting the perfect cup of coffee every time”, Hope says. Balancing profit and purpose (6:48)From a marketing perspective, why getting people to buy coffee and trying to make the world a better place don’t need to be mutually exclusive. The importance of a strong purpose that is clear across all you do. Tims’ orange doughnuts initiative (10:59)Their social justice efforts toward reconciliation with Indigenous Peoples. Hope discusses some of the risks that need to be considered within such a large scale effort. And the need to get the tone right with a fundraiser involving donuts and sprinkles connects to an issue of such gravitas. The importance of taking time to formulate your response to the world around you (15:04)“(Take) more time upfront, consulting, and (thinking about) how you build the program and design it. Rather than being fast, we wanted to get it right. It was less about having some kind of first mover advantage. And that took a little bit more time to do. But it was absolutely the right approach.” The mechanisms to gather the input and feedback needed in your communication (9:35)“We do social listening. We have a council of owners that we speak with regularly that give us feedback. They have cross country representation. We do research with Canadians to understand what's important.”  

To hear more about how to Tim Hortons approaches their marketing, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in February of 2021

In Canada, small business is big business. Marketing from business to small business (B2SB ®) requires a different strategy, Miki Velemirovich maintains. As President of B2SB (business to small business) specialist agency Cargo, Miki joins John Wiltshire for a conversation about how big brands can connect and engage with the decision makers behind small businesses. He shares how marketing the Mercedes Benz Sprinter van spurred him to find, engage and motivate small business owners (SBOs) to achieve leading market share – and how big brands can do the same.

Here’s some of what they discuss:

1. Why people buy what they buy (1:25)

This question prompted Miki to think about consumer behaviour, to try and understand the emotional connection between the business owner and the way a brand makes them feel.

2. The state of mind of SBOs (6:41)

Despite the impact of the pandemic, 82% of SBOs are optimistic about the future. Rather than look at the negative, they’re changing their business model through the digitization of their sales channels, business operations and innovation.

3. How to target your messaging (9:19)

SBOs are fuelled by optimism and enthusiasm, so you need to tailor your messaging accordingly. Understanding their personas (Crusaders vs Artisans) will help you shift your messaging from sympathy to empowerment. Another differentiator is how different industries will recover (high-touch models like events and hospitality have a slower speed of recovery), which makes a targeted approach necessary.

4.The value of purpose-driven experiences (15:32)

“Be authentic and do what you say you’re going to do”, Miki advises. Through a study conducted by his agency, Cargo, he discovered that brand purpose was a strong driver of affiliation for millenials. By tying all your products and services into one ecosystem that’s less about a feature than it is about what it can do for them, you’ll be solving a problem and helping SBOs.

5. The difference between working for an SMB and a big brand (23:34)

Young marketers who work for an SMB instead of a big brand will learn various components of the business much faster. When you work in an SMB, you learn to be okay with ambiguity and lack of defined structure. This often leads to the kind of accelerated innovation and agility that young marketers would rarely find in traditional organizations.

To hear more about how to market to SBOs and turn them into fans and brand ambassadors 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

It's one thing to talk about authenticity, transparency and the need to be aligned with your customers. It's a total other thing to say how we're going to actually put this into action. It’s about the conversation with internal stakeholders. It's a conviction to make this part of your long term planning. And it's a question that you ask at each step of your process: Are we being consistently authentic?

In this episode of CMA Connect, host, and President of the Canadian Marketing Association, John Wiltshire dives deep into the subject of brand authenticity from a deeply personal lens.

John touches on:

Brand authenticity is complex, and ever changing, but the journey must start today.

🎧 Tune in to CMA Connect 🎧 for the full take on the subject as you plan for your 2022 marketing calendars

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in May of 2020

If your brand isn’t everywhere, how will it connect? According to Mitch Joel, connection is what everyone is looking for – and we need to make our connections count. The Founder of Six Pixels Group, a bestselling author, podcaster, and former chair of CMA’s board of directors, Mitch joins John Wiltshire on CMA Connect to share his take on where brands should go next as marketers shift towards recovery. 

On the show, he shares some of his journey from rock journalist to speaker, blogger, and author,  along with why brands need to think very deeply on how much more they could use to connect. 

Here’s some of what you’ll learn: 

1. Two divergent concepts to keep top of mind (10:23)

These are the two potential paths the world might go down: whether consumers will buy the way they once bought, or if we need to anticipate three years of struggle.

2. Disrupting disruption = innovation (14:30)

With the true digitization that’s happening, brands and marketers need to look beyond their physical limitations towards making products and services more open and accessible.

3. Making connection a priority (20:30)

For example, instead of using newsletters to promote your business, use them to connect with your customers. It's tremendously powerful to have a real person write a real letter in a human voice that explains things and provides value.

4.The power of marketplaces (23:44)

Every business, especially marketers, should think about building your own marketplace or how to be part of one. Along with how to be more direct to consumers in a world that’s increasingly demanding it. 

To hear more about opportunities for disruption and innovation, tune in to CMA Connect. 

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Hello and welcome back to CMA Connect. In this episode, Erin Elofson, who heads up Pinterest’s Canada and APAC region, joins John Wiltshire to discuss Pinterest’s raison d'êtreand how positivity is built into the platform. Erin shares the difference between social media and personal media, and how brands can deliver ideas and inspiration to pinners who browse with intent. Listen up to find out why the platform should be part of every brand’s media mix.

Here’s a preview of what they talked about:

To find out more about Pinterest’s social commerce push and why this could help your brand grow, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect 🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in August of 2020

Welcome back to CMA Connect, where two special guests from CMA’s Talent Council, Nardia Ali, Director of Talent Acquisition and Engagement at Ogilvy, and Medhi Rahman, Director of Global Learning and Development at Spin Master, join your host, John Wiltshire, to discuss how marketers must adapt to - and create - lasting change.

They share some of their plans and priorities to elevate marketing in Canada by developing thought leadership tools and best practices to foster talent and inspire creativity, while ensuring diversity.

They talk about:

To find out more,🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in October of 2020

Join John Wiltshire and Trinh Tham, CMO of Harry Rosen, to hear how this retail brand has remained true to their brand purpose, while continuously evolving and pivoting. Trinh believes that marketers have a vital role: to act as the voice of the customer. This means we need to be active listeners – asking what customers want from our brands, beyond product, service, and value.

They discuss:

To find out more about living your brand’s purpose, during and after a pandemic,🎧 tune in to CMA Connect on Apple or Spotify 🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in July of 2020

Marketing is one of the leading applications for AI today, according to AI expert Erin Kelly. She joins CMA Connect to talk about Artificial Intelligence (AI) and how it can drive innovation through look-alike sampling. Erin Kelly is President and CEO of Advanced Symbolics Inc. (ASI), a company that uses AI to augment market research and prediction. ASI’s patented AI, named Polly™, catapulted the company to fame after predicting BREXIT and the Trump election. Erin now works with major brands around the world to increase revenue and explore new ways of communicating. John and Erin talk about:

To find out more about how AI is changing the scope of marketing, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect on Apple of Spotify 🎧.

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in December of 2020

This episode of CMA Connect features Stephen Brown, CEO of successful Canadian-based creative agency FUSE Create. The winner of CMA’s 2019 Lifetime Achievement Award, Stephen describes the role that agencies play in today’s marketing landscape. He shares how agencies can build back better in 2021 and beyond , as well as what young emerging marketers can do to get into the industry.

Here’s some of what John Wiltshire and Stephen talk about on the show:

To find out more about the role of agencies in today’s marketing landscape, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧. 

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in May of 2021

In this episode of CMA Connect, John Wiltshire chats with Kevin Edwards, Chief Executive Officer at SkipTheDishes, Canada’s largest and most trusted food delivery app about the increased demand for take-out and how they’ve responded to ensure growth for all three of their stakeholders (restaurants, contractors, and customers) (6:07). They also discuss the ever-evolving and growing role that marketing plays in an organization – and how it was key to Skip’s overall strategy and success.

You’ll learn from Kevin’s experience as a lifelong marketer and how this contributed to his role as CEO, taking the brand from preference to relevance.

Here’s a sneak peek into what was discussed:

To find out more about the critical role of marketing in any organization, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect 🎧. 

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myC MA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in May of 2021

Hello and welcome back to CMA Connect. In this episode, your host John Wiltshire talks about the power of agile marketing with Analia Lapichino, Senior Director Value Proposition Strategy at Rogers Communication. They speak about the benefits of agile marketing’s scrum framework and how Analia uses this method with her team to get things done.  

Tune in to learn the difference between agile marketing and agile development (2:14) and how agile marketing (3:54) allows you to accelerate the pace at which you reach a customer. Here’s a quick preview of the discussion around the five principles of agile marketing:

1) Focus on analysis vs opinion (7:20)

From breaking a decision into small (bearable chunks) with less risk to recognizing that leadership ideas don’t have a higher success rate, learn how to focus on analysis rather than opinion. 

2) Take a customer-centric approach (8:39)

Analia believes that companies need to think through every customer experience for every marketing campaign or tactic. 

3) Be fast and fail fast (10:41) 

If failure is a given, how can you embrace and learn from failure so you don’t fail the same way twice? 

4. Be collaborative and avoid hierarchy (12:22)

You can empower your squad and transform their leadership journey by embracing servant leadership. 

5. Be efficient in your leadership support (17:37)

Set the vision and the guardrails you need to get there. When you eliminate the passing of the baton, you’re on the right path.

Last, but not least, find out why you need specialists to bridge beyond the area of competency, along with a (non-hierarchical) environment that makes ordinary people extraordinary (19:48). 

To learn more about how you can achieve success through agile marketing, 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect 🎧. 

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myC MA account. 

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in November of 2020

Hello and welcome back to CMA Connect. In this episode, Sabrina Geremia, VP and Country Manager for Google Canada, joins the show to discuss how digital transformation is influencing marketing. Sabrina shares how technology can help marketers meet evolving consumer expectations and achieve digital excellence. Together with John Wiltshire, she discusses how Canadian businesses have pivoted online to meet a volatile market. They also touch on what both young professionals and seasoned marketers should be doing to improve their skills. 

Here’s some of what was discussed: 

To find out more about the digitization of consumer demand and how to tap into it 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect 🎧. 

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account. 

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in October of 2020

Does your organization feel like a Ferrari stuck in first gear, especially when it comes to the martech tools you use? Intercept President and Co-chair of the B2B Council, Andrew Au, joins CMA Connect to discuss the need for B2B marketers to not only adopt marketing tech and automation tools, but to realize their full potential.  

On the show, he shares some of his journey to becoming an expert in B2B marketing, along with why martech tools are essential to reach and engage customers in a changing world. Tune in to learn how utilizing martech to deliver personal and connected experiences will help you be successful, post-Covid and beyond. 

Some key takeaways include:  

1. The importance of mapping your customer stakeholders (6:53)

Organizations must understand the different ideas, criteria, and expectations (7:55) of up to 15 decision-makers in B2B purchasing. Individual-based marketing is key to becoming more personalized and relevant – building persona profiles can help marketers understand every stakeholder’s role in the buying journey and use these insights to create customer journeys (8:10).  

2. Why marketers need to understand the data (9:05)

We're collecting way more data than we've ever had before, in multiple ways and formats for multiple parties, most of which is never used. Sit down with your IT department to decide what data needs to be processed and connected (9:35) to create client profiles that provide actionable insights. 

3. How to embrace hyper personalization (11:59)

To be hyper personalized to your clients’ needs, you need to talk to the person or team that’s closest to the end consumer, which is sales. According to Andrew, the future of marketing automation lies in blending sales and marketing to create cross functional pods or teams (13:58) who design customer journeys that drive impact and secure investment.  

4. Why more (great) content is the fuel for customer journeys (15:51)

Evaluate how personalized your content is and whether it provides actual value. Your customers are swimming in a sea of information – help them make sense of it. And if they’re not responding, branch off and create sub journeys using marketing automation.  

To hear more from Andrew on the potential of martech tools and how the citizen developer movement is making it easier to be innovative (20:27), 🎧 tune in to CMA Connect🎧.  

Stay connected and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends by visiting thecma.ca and signing up for a myCMA account.

Reproduced from a conversation originally recorded in October of 2020

Welcome to the pilot episode of CMA Connect, our new podcast hosted by John Wiltshire, CEO and President of the Canadian Marketing Association. We'll be sharing the latest tips and insights from industry thought leaders to help you connect the marketing dots. For a fantastic discussion about diversity and inclusion and its impact on today's marketer, you need to listen to our very first episode. 

On the show to share their personal experiences and insights as BIPOC professionals are Gopal Bansal, Vice-President of Diversity and Inclusion at RBC and Sartaj Sarkaria, the Chief Diversity Officer and VP of Corporate Services at CMA. 

We discuss: 

🎧 Listen to the first CMA Connect podcast for more.🎧

To stay connected to us and receive the latest marketing news and industry trends, visit thecma.ca and sign up for a myCMA account.