Jo & JJ Go Mental

There is a heaviness in the air, with plenty of opportunities to focus on emotional intelligence and mental health recently between World Suicide Prevention Day and the 20th anniversary of 9/11. Today Jo and J.J. focus on grief, both from the perspective of the griever and from the person trying to comfort others through their grief. Too many people don’t know what to say or how to comfort someone who is facing loss, leaving the griever feeling even worse than they already did. Jo and J.J. explore the right approach to carrying ourselves and others through grief. Jo also shares an experience about willfulness and effectiveness in DBT and why people really need to learn to let go of the need to be right and just accept what is. They talk about defining values, setting boundaries, and, on a lighter note, why #begrannymolly is Jo’s new life goal.

Takeaway:

[1:21] J.J. reflects on her experience of being rescued from the draining aftermath of 9/11 and how she has drawn a hard line to protect herself on the 20th anniversary. For her, this meant avoiding social media, documentaries, and deliberately filling her energy up.

[6:58] Reaching out on a personal level when someone is grieving about anything matters, but the overused phrase “I’m sorry for your loss” is probably the wrong thing to say.  Jo offers a few statements that you can try instead.

[11:27] Too many people are afraid of facing death, or even talking about it. But that can lead to even greater hurt for the people that are grieving and surrounded by people who don’t know what to say because they haven’t figured out how to manage their own anxiety about death and loss.

[15:50] Side story — Jo’s 93-year-old Granny Molly was a member of the Geriatric Mafia - think three little old ladies (one registered blind, one deaf as a post and the third one with a dodgy hip) causing havoc on the bus and in the supermarket #begrannymolly.

[18:29] Everyone has to find the balance between the need to be right with the need to be effective. In DBT terms the behavior that gets in the way of being effective is called willfulness, which is just about the least offensive way to talk about stubborn, offensive, messed up behavior.

[21:03] How do you decide when to go into battle and when to walk away? Define your values, and if a situation is toxic, you have the right to walk away from it. The next step is to determine how far you need to go to get support from others, especially in work relationships between managers and employees.

[25:43] The physical reactions that you experience in tense situations can help you identify your anxiety level and decide how you should move forward. You can’t waste too much of your time worrying about what other people might be thinking about your actions.

[28:06] J.J. has found a new role model in Jo’s rock star family!

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

They’re baaack! Jo and J.J. kick off Season 2 the only way they know how - by spelling out that sometimes we can get this emotional intelligence piece wrong.  Many well intentioned leaders approach emotional intelligence as a tick box exercise, merely going through the motions, rather than really understanding the objective.  That faux emotional intelligence in corporate societies will likely try to cover up a more self serving agenda. Jo brings an article on the topic from the Harvard Business Review, and it leads to her and J.J. discussing how to spot inauthentic emotional intelligence, how we can develop actual skills to listen to what people really need, and why modern day EQ can seem so darn self serving. Also, J.J. shares an update on her third book, and what the process of finishing it is kicking up for her emotionally. 

Takeaway:

[2:11] J.J. shares an update on her third book, and it’s going to stir up a lot of stuff about the ego and narcissism, but it made her laugh, so that’s a good sign. She and Jo discuss the process of writing and how the sweet spot is always on the other side of the fear. 

[10:30] Fun fact for those who may not know: VAT stands for “value added taxes”.   Who knew?

[11:15] Jo reads from Harvard Business Review’s article, Is Your Emotional Intelligence Authentic or Is It Self-Serving? 

The author writes about three most common emotional intelligence counterfeits he has seen leaders get trapped in: 

A need to be the hero disguised as empathy.  A need to be right masquerading as active listening.  A need for approval dressed up as self-awareness. 

[14:51] If some of these describe you, don’t panic! It doesn’t mean you are an awful person, we are often trained to do these to fit into our job or the larger thread of society. 

[18:17] We can feel the energy of inauthenticity on a primal level. 

[21:54] The White Knight syndrome is a co-dependent move where you think you are more together than everyone you socialize, and only you can help them. The Sexist Rescuer is also the person that swoops in to “help” someone and save them from sexism, but with a need to be recognized attached to it. 

[23:47] Emotional intelligence only works if you are asking yourself the hard questions. We may get a hit of shame, but it’s our only chance of moving forward. If you are in a group considered the minority, it is your responsibility to do the work on what triggers you and your blind spots. 

[29:12] There is verbal and emotional abuse veiled in emotional intelligence, which is the worst kind of abuse of power, and it’s up to us to take a hard look at ourselves and acknowledge our blind spots. 

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

 Is Your Emotional Intelligence Authentic or Is It Self-Serving? 

Madonna Inn 

What a season! As Jo and J.J. wrap up Season 1, they identify a few of the themes that came up with the fantastic array of guests. Between fear, shame, embracing your weirdness and much more, Season 1 was chock full of learning from each other and calling in new perspectives. This week, they highlight a few stand-out moments and give us a sneak peek of what we can look forward to in Season 2.

Takeaway:

[4:43] As Jo was reading the Sunday papers over breakfast, she came across an article she found interesting. Titled, “I Didn’t Have Burnout. It was a Lie,” designer Rebecca Minkoff explained why she dreaded going back to work after maternity leave, and why it may not have been her own burnout but external factors. This brings up the conversation of the pros and cons of more people speaking openly about burnout and putting a label on it. It may help people speak up and have language and feel less alone, but we can also over-identify with labels and not take accountability.

[9:44] Jo has gotten direct feedback from her presentations on burnout that talking about it helps bring it into the light and helps people feel less like they are losing their minds. When we know that it’s exhaustion rather than a character flaw or defect, we have structure and can get an actionable plan more into place.

[12:59] Jo and J.J. recap the amazing guests they have had this first season, and although the guests have all been quite different, each one of them offers their intelligence, perspective, and wisdom to the episode. A few of the themes that came from conversations include letting go of control, embracing your authentic nature and even the weirdness that may come along with it, and intentionality. A big one that came up, as it did here in the episode with author and coach Kristine Goad, is that the biggest adventure in life is to be yourself.

[17:05] Another theme was shame and guilt. We often have no idea the guilt or shame we carry around, as evidenced in the recent episode with Reverend Erika Allison who talked openly about her healing after conversion therapy. Jo used to feel guilty for not working during holidays. Most people suffer from the worry that they are not good enough, so they self-medicate with shame. Before we even try to problem solve and put our minds on the case, we must validate our emotions and sit in them for a moment.

[22:06] We are encouraged by society to burn ourselves out and be anxious. Products are sold by tapping into people’s fear and desire to constantly be better, skinnier and appear more wealthy. When you finally start to feel as though you are good enough, you can partake in these things from a place of joy instead of lack.

[25:42] These conversations are complex because if you are balancing self-care and acting according to your values, then productivity will go up. However, the more people can feel you setting boundaries, the more they sometimes want to push them.

[30:28] There are subtle and not-so-subtle ways that work environments try to trample people’s boundaries. Middle management is sometimes caught between the higher-up boss and the employee: this is when good communication and the ability to regulate emotions is critical.

[34:02] Great leaders can also help millennials and the younger workers have the right tools in place to both be great at their job but also have boundaries in place. Jo has been on both sides, and feels that a manager and employee can aim for constructive conversations around it.

[35:32] There are so many levels to power dynamics but there are easy ways to change.

[37:58] Women working for women can be challenging, and internalized sexism is definitely a thing. People may act like they have power over you, but it’s up to you to confirm it.

[41:14] What’s coming up for the next season? Great guests, listener questions, a deeper dive into topics, and a lot of laughs and learning along the way.

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Listen to Season 1 here

“I didn’t have burnout. It was a lie.” 

Brene Brown

So often we hide our differences so we can fit in and belong. For some, doing this at work is extremely difficult or not even an option. This week, Jo and J.J. welcome Faith Clarke, Organizational Health and Inclusion Specialist who works with value-driven and diverse teams so they can deliver on business and social impact promises at the highest level. Faith is extremely passionate about inclusion for BIPOC and neuro-distinct individuals and advocating for those who “don’t belong”. She discusses the importance of mental health and how her children taught her to focus more on wisdom than having control. She talks about how organizations can change one small thing at a time and the importance of listening to the underserved and those having difficulties directly rather than assuming what they need.

Takeaway:

[3:46] Faith talks about the importance of mental health in parenting children with complex needs. She is a mom to autistic children, and it became very clear to her early on that maintaining her own self-care was the only way to nourish herself and her children in the process; staying in fixing mode 24/7 was never going to be sustainable.  

[5:29] Faith explains why she refers to her children as neuro distinct rather than neuro-typical. We are all diverse, and it fits better because her children deal with a wide range of distinct experiences including OCD, depression, and characteristics of autism.  

[8:42] The more we operate in the illusion that we are in control of everything and everyone, the more suffering we will feel. Faith talks with Jo and J.J. about mining from wisdom rather than the past. As a Caribbean woman, she quite literally has faith that she is able to handle challenging times and has a deep resilience for what life throws at her.

[10:50] Half of the struggle in autism is being in a world not quite meant for you. A large part of Faith’s mission is helping people create an environment that helps those who are neuro-distinct feel as though they can fully contribute in a way that fits for them.

[12:29] The stuffing down of emotions like anger and sadness is often what leads to the messes that need cleaning up and the bigger reactions like anxiety or panic attacks.

[17:24] Why do we have to fight for advocacy in the United States? Jo questions why it isn’t just the case that if someone gets diagnosed, they get the support and information they need without so much red tape and the need to jump over hoop after hoop. Jo’s jaw hits the floor thinking about the challenges built into the United States medical systems (particularly as she comes from a country with a free national health system). Faith explains that the person saying yes is often not the one being affected, and the system is built on a very old and patriarchal one with a lot of conscious and unconscious biases and blind spots.

[28:09] Smart people can self-medicate their anxiety with certainty and control, and when dealing with the neuro-distinct, that can be a recipe for disaster. Instead, we are better off starting from the ground floor to make the workplace more inclusive with recommendations by the people themselves that are affected most day to day.

[28:56] We come up with the right solutions when we ask the right questions to the right people. Faith says we should start with including the people actually at the table and hear what barriers they face in contributing.

[30:12] It may seem too good to be true, but work can actually be restorative and nourishing. It doesn’t have to be soul-draining, and when we build a workflow in a way that works with people instead of against them, we are more effective and productive.

[36:42] There are some key things companies should look for to see if there really are barriers in contribution: are people disengaged, is there too much or not enough conflict?  (the point on not enough conflict is an interesting one, as this can often be symptomatic of a team environment that does not allow its members to speak up).  Does new talent start strong and then seem to dwindle their light down? Is your leadership flexible or rigid? When people make it to the top, are they able to be more of themselves and lead in their own way, or are they exhausted in a cemented system? More people than ever are opting to leave their jobs instead of settling for what they don’t want, which is arguably  why we maintain the same patterns for years and years. 

[42:00] We know that diversity creates better opportunity, but we are creating a defense of apathy and productivity in people that would normally be enthusiastic.

[43:08] The pandemic has shown us that we can pivot quickly when it’s important. Faith talks about her vision for the future, where we connect research and speed it up to commit to doing even one small thing at a time right now.

[45:50] If everyone having a voice and ability to contribute is not enough to entice leadership, the money aspect surely will. Money motivates, and if we look at lost income and productivity due to not letting everyone have a seat at the table, we can see just how much is at stake.

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Faith Clarke

Jo and J.J. welcome Reverend Erika Allison, Queer interfaith minister, speaker, author, and spiritual counselor. Rev. Erika talks about her own experience with conversion therapy, and how harmful it can be, causing long-term effects and even high cases of suicide. She talks about her healing and recovery, and the choice to forgive and let go of anger. Her book, Gay the Pray Away, guides readers on their own journey and can also serve as a powerful resource for someone who has a loved one coming out as a member of the LGBTQ+ community. She, Jo, and J.J. send a message to parents that almost anything can be worked through, and as more structures fall apart, we will welcome people more for who they truly are with open hearts.

Takeaway:

[3:24] Rev. Erika experienced firsthand how critical of an issue mental health is. She experienced conversion therapy and the lifelong healing journey that came with it. A staggering statistic is that if you come out of conversion therapy alive, you have a 92% chance of lifetime suicidal ideation. Mental health is something Rev. Erika is committed to working on forever, and her enthusiastic way helps even the most resistant person listen.

[6:49] Conversion therapy is an attempt to change someone’s orientation or gender identity. It can be done for social reasons, religious reasons, and many times it’s out of love and fear on the part of parents and family that the person will go to Hell, etc. This makes it even more confusing, and even though it has been widely discredited by professional mental health and medical organizations, it still goes on today. SOCE (sexual orientation change efforts) believes homosexuality is a curable disease, which can cause a profound amount of harm to an individual.

[11:29] Fear can cause us to lessen the ability to think critically and believe whatever outside authorities tell us. In families worried about their children being queer, they can revert back to believing whatever “the man” tells them. This can mean a religious figure, a doctor, etc.

[12:59] Rev. Erika talks about the long-term implications of her conversion therapy. She thought that because it hadn’t changed her sexual orientation there was no damage done, but she had to do a lot of work on how it affected her level of trust in relationships and the shame that came with the therapy.

[15:19] We tend to think our trauma isn’t as bad or important as someone else’s, but that can hold us back from healing. For Rev. Erika, the more she journaled, the more she tapped into her subconscious mind and saw harmful beliefs and blind spots that were scary, but necessary as part of the work.

[18:34] Jo has always been very academic, and the more work she did, the more she saw her beliefs that her parents telling her to “do her best” meant to her to “be the best”. This put a large amount of pressure and stress on her, feeling as though she was a failure and defective if she wasn’t at the top.

[21:37] Rev. Erika sought out communities that took responsibility for the impact of their intentions, words, and behavior. This is where Buddhism helped, and meditation and mindfulness helped her detach from her thoughts and become more of an observer.

[23:38] Conversion therapy can make someone feel as though they can’t trust themselves or their gut feelings. Rev. Erika saw this clearly when she hired a coach to help her breakthrough professional and personal barriers, and they commented that she had one foot on the gas, and also one foot on the brake. On the one hand, she was forging forward with her work and her message, but at the same time, there was something holding her back, stopping her from stepping completely into her work.  On reflection, she realized that she was trying to protect herself from someone saying something or judging her in a way that triggered beliefs she had about herself. She, Jo, and J.J. discuss how triggers are our responsibilities too, and you can only get triggered by something still activated in you. Many times people hate on us because we trigger something in them.

[30:19] Rev. Erika talks about viewing her inner critic as one voice at the conference table. It gets a say and it’s part of what makes her up as a human being, but it doesn’t call the shots. The more we can integrate our inner critic with our other parts, the less we resist it.

[37:12] Our inner critic is just one truth, not THE truth. Each voice has their role, whether they are trying to keep us safe or get us to the next level of life.

[41:35] Through Rev. Erika’s work, she enthusiastically brings the message of self-acceptance into the world. We are now in a time where many systems are crumbling, and while scary, that can be good for shedding the old and stepping into our new more healing and true potential.

[44:31] People like Rev. Erika who have gone through such dramatic trauma and healing can light the way for others.

[47:05] J.J. has an important message for parents whose children come out: queer teen suicide is much higher than you may think. Learning this may be hard for you, but think: would you rather have them alive and queer or face the other option? You can work through almost everything, but you can’t work through suicide.

[49:06] Rev. Erika talks about her decision to let go of anger and forgive. It doesn’t make her story invalid or take away what happened to her but helps her move forward. In her mind, she wrote a letter to herself from her mom’s highest self, and it shifted their relationship completely. Soon after, her mom wrote an email and apologized to her. When you shift things, it instigates an energetic shift from fear to love.

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Rev. Erika Allison | Gay The Pray Away 

Big Magic

You are a Badass 

Taming Your Gremlin 

This week, Jo and J.J. are joined by Marie Louise Ashworth, President of The Network, a network of female entrepreneurs and professionals in Luxembourg. The Network is devoted to developing a supportive community of women and helping them build resilience, avoid burnout, and thrive as they meet their personal and professional goals. Marie Louise is also a committed mentor for young women and startups. She talks with Jo and J.J. about how to maintain our individual character while working in a corporate setting, the importance of community, and how she got on the other side of her own burnout.

Takeaway:

[3:44] Marie Louise had her own experience of feeling burnt out, lost, lonely and isolated. Like both Jo and J.J., she believes that the more we talk about it, the better.

[5:36] Like Jo, it took a life-changing experience for Marie Louise to decide to change her life and get support for her burnout. She shares a harrowing plane experience that made her face her own mortality and realise that she needed to get help. We often ignore the signs our bodies are giving us, and part of mindfulness is taking care of yourself before it becomes a crisis. The more we can give ourselves permission to take a break and a rest when we need it, the more energy we can have to be better in our personal and professional lives, as well as to help others. 

[11:54] J.J. believes we should get rid of the word “lazy” altogether, and instead not have so much shame and stigma around just taking a much-needed pause. For example, when you are training with weights or in the gym, it is encouraged to have rest days to let the muscles regroup. The same is true for our brains and stress levels as we work long hours and lead a busy life. The challenge comes when we start to equate taking a rest to being lazy.

[13:00] Noticing and naming emotions is a large part of mindfulness, and catching ourselves before it becomes a crisis. Society may tell us that the only good days are the productive ones, but it’s only once we unpack our beliefs and emotions that we can tell the truth and start to implement healthier patterns that create sustainable and positive change.

[18:29] Yes, menopause can certainly affect our hormones and how we feel, but we also must track and observe our thoughts and patterns. J.J. discusses how clients are often reluctant to give up certain behaviours, even if they have identified them as destructive because they have gotten them through a crisis. The more they make space to implement new Emotional Intelligence skills, and push through the awkwardness, the more they can start to choose behaviours that work in their favour.

[21:08] Through The Network, Marie Louise and her team help women learn some of the interpersonal skills to help them survive and thrive in the workplace, such as emotional regulation. The Network also provides monthly sessions and events, mentorship, and accountability partners. The focus is very much on personal growth, equality, and inclusion.

[31:39] How can we accept our true nature in a corporate environment, and is that even possible? J.J. and Jo discuss each of their experiences with trying to embrace their individuality but running into expectations and limitations at their workplace. For Jo, when she got told she wore too much pink, her mentor explained there was a certain expectation of a tax accountant and how they should look — and it was more ‘grey suit than pink coat’. While we all need to be accepted for who we are and what we are capable of doing, sometimes you have to play the game and show your worth first; when you have done that, no one will care about the pink coat.

[38:06] There is still a game to be played, but it’s how we play it and with what intention we play it with. We can start with the grey suit and show how good we are, but it is important to keep our self-esteem intact. There is a better way to get around in the world, but you have to have resilience which takes mindfulness of validating your own experience so you can be honest with yourself.

[45:53] It is common for an individual to have a crisis each decade, but no one talks about it and people tend to blame their environment. The anger that comes with stuffing down their emotions can lead to anxiety and panic attacks.

[48:57] Has going virtual during the pandemic helped dispel the notion that we have to wear boring gray suits to be good at work? Time will tell, but leaders showing up to work with pets, pyjamas, and children, may have been a good start.

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Marie Louise Ashworth - LinkedIn | The Network  

Jo is on her own this week and shares her reflections on how the attitude around burnout has shifted throughout the generations, especially since the pandemic. Jo discusses three perceptions of burnout that she has seen a shift: that if you burnout that means you are broken or weak; that burnout and exhaustion is just a side effect of being busy which is a good thing, and that life is just tough and you should just get on with it and not complain. After two burnouts in five years and coming through the other side, Jo now works with clients to help them do their best work without burning out.  She is also on a mission to move through the still palpable stigma around burnout in both work and interpersonal settings.

Takeaway:

[4:04] Jo discusses the impact that the pandemic has had on more people talking about their burnout, and more people experiencing the stress and fatigue that comes with working from home. By April 2020, 2.6 billion people went into lockdown, and 80% of the global workforce was fully or partially closed. A huge percentage of knowledge workers were doing their job from home, and this opened up more conversations about mental health and the work/life balance. Burnout is a global problem, and this was a rare time that the whole world got to pause and take stock of what is actually important in their life.

[5:41] One of the feelings of burnout is typically that you are alone and that everyone else is winning at life, while you are broken or not cut out for success. Even if more people have been talking about burnout during the pandemic, there is still a stigma around speaking up about it.

[7:33] In 2014, 16 years into her tax career, Jo went through her second burnout in five years. After healing and coming out on the other side, she wrote her book, created two TEDx talks, and started this podcast with J.J. to have open conversations around mental health and burnout.

[9:05] The concept of workplace burnout first appeared in the 1970s, and since then there has been much debate within the medical community on how to treat it, who is susceptible to it, what causes it, and if it is an illness or all in the head. In 2019, the WHO included burnout in the international classification of diseases as a syndrome linked to chronic workplace stress that has not been properly managed; it also characterized the syndrome around three main elements: (i) feeling exhausted and depleted, (ii) increased cynicism and distance from the work, and (iii) reduced feelings of professional efficacy.

[10:58] Perception #1: If you burn out, it means you are weak and broken and not cut out for this kind of high-pressure work. Burnout has long been placed on the employee, but studies show that the work environment may have more to do with it than we think. 

[11:25] According to the research, a few traits of a workplace that employees tend to get more burnt out include unsustainable workload, extremely high pressure, perceived lack of control, and lack of community. Much like a canary in a landmine, it’s the environment that made them sick. When an employee falls off their “perch” at work, people are recognizing that maybe it’s the workplace and not just their traits as an individual.

[15:48] Only time will tell if organizations have really learned during the pandemic what employees need, or if we will fully go back to the way things were before.

[18:02] Perception #2: Burnout means you are exhausted because you are busy, and surely that’s a good thing because being exhausted is a badge of honour. Jo talks about how exhaustion became this badge of honor that we carry around today, and how in the 18th century, doctors stopped blaming it on the individual and instead on society. Exhaustion is linked to success and status, and we almost one-up each other by showing how hard we work and how little we take breaks. Our self worth and prestige has become measured by how productive we can be, and exhaustion represents this.

[20:11] Junior employees come through and demand that there be more to life than being tired or exhausted, but there has to be a balance of doing the hard work, of learning the ropes.

[25:05] Perception #3: Life is tough and you should just get on with it, and quit complaining. Many high achievers feel that working hard is shown by putting in long hours and that your dedication is directly attached to the number of hours you work. Jo shares how she believed that self-care was lazy, unprofessional, and something for California hippies.  However, if we all learned more about emotional intelligence alongside other more traditional and academic studies, we may not have the same levels of burnout, PTSD, or even depression that we see today.

[29:41] Talking about mental health and burnout has got to happen. People need to know they are not on their own and there is a different way to thrive and blossom based in reality  where you don’t have to drag yourself into the ground.

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Dr. Christina Maslach

Simon Sinek on Millennials in the Workplace

How Exhaustion Became A Status Symbol

How the Pandemic Exacerbated Burnout

This week, Jo and J.J. revisit a few months back during the time of the election to check on one of the most judged and misunderstood emotions — anger. They discuss why doing the deep work of anger is like wading through that infamous tunnel scene in The Shawshank Redemption, how anger signals that our boundaries are being crossed, and how letting go of anger needs to be a conscious choice. They also talk about how to process anger if you can’t really act on it right then and there, and why women have such a tougher time showing anger in public. Jo shares a story from her previous work that blows J.J. away and displays how women often stand up for each other before they stand up for their own needs.

Takeaway:

[3:11] J.J. discusses the Feels on Wheels program and reaching as many people as possible to help them own their emotions. When we can cultivate resilience to go through the tough emotions, we have powerful tools for getting through the tougher days.

[5:03] We want to aim for making decisions based on our values rather than fear. However, the first step is validating those emotions and observing when they bubble up. When we put words to our emotions, we allow ourselves to process them rather than having fear guide our choices.

[8:01] One of the strongest symptoms of burnout is emotional exhaustion. Leading up to that, there is often a lot of anger and fear that we are pushing down or distracting ourselves from, for many possible reasons including societal or family pressure.

[10:42] J.J. compares digging in and really doing anger work to the sewage tunnel in The Shawshank Redemption. When the character Andy is trying to escape from prison, he chooses to get into a sewer  to navigate towards freedom. Anger work often gets worse before it gets better because you are stirring up many repressed feelings. Choosing to get into therapy or emotional intelligence work is choosing to enter, going through the nasty shit tunnel, but knowing it is so much better on the other side.

[12:33] Panic attacks and anxiety disorders are often the result of stuffed anger. Jo brings up that anger repressed may also lead to OCD behaviors and the need to control everything and be perfect.

[13:44] Women, especially Black or BIPOC women, are made to feel hysterical or out of control about their emotions while society makes it okay for men to act out their anger with little to no consequence.  Anger is important because it signals to us that boundaries are being crossed, and it can be a safety issue that our gut is telling us to get out of a situation immediately.

[15:20] You may choose based on your values not to express the anger, however, it will back up on you if you don’t even admit to yourself that you feel it. Jo shares an instance where she stood up for other women before she did for herself. A Senior Male colleague made a sexist remark and J.J. not only wishes she was there to rip him to shreds but points out that it is a typical woman thing to come to other people’s defenses before their own.

[23:13] Why aren’t we better at defending each other? There is still much sexism and brainwashing in our society both in our personal and professional lives. It’s visible in the media when different commentators on the same debate chastise women for standing up for themselves, not saying enough, or having too much/too little confidence.

[25:48] J.J. talks about senior men trying to gaslight her in meetings by saying the exact same point she just made moments later and claiming the thought as their own, trying to take the credit. She blatantly points it out, and while not everyone can do that, we can have the tools to learn how to validate and process it.

[27:07] If we choose not to act on anger, we still have to process it somehow. However, if you choose not to act but ruminate later, that is the indicator that you probably gave into fear at some point.

[31:03] We view anger with more judgement than other emotions such as fear or sadness. There is a lot of programming by society and family for us to not know how to process our anger in a healthy way, especially for women.

[38:13] Instead of acting from fear, you can do a D.E.A.R (describe, express, assert, reinforce) practice on the situation to get in touch with the emotions and let them move through so you act with more groundedness and clarity. 

Tweetables:

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Burn Out 

Brene Brown Podcast

We may see horses as just cute animals grazing across the farm, but they are really incredible teachers, full of wisdom and life lessons about living in the moment and letting go of the past. This week, Jo and J.J. are joined by June Burgess, Equine Coach, Business Director, and Entrepreneur. She talks about how she began her Equine Assistance Workshops and why working with horses can be so powerful for our mental health. Jo shares her own experience in learning to relax around the horses and how that mirrored so much about business and the need for perfectionism. June shares some amazing stories of working with veterans suffering from PTSD and CEO’s of large companies, and how they both had transformations after working with horses. 

Takeaway:

[3:48] In her work, June can tell a lot from someone by how they interact with horses. Horses are masters in responding to dangerous situations, galloping away, and then going back to grazing once the danger has passed. Horses also conserve their energy instead of letting the past or anxiety about the future consume them. 

[7:24] Horses are simple in their responses and they don’t care about politeness. A horse will tell you quickly if they need space or if you are not respecting their boundaries. This feedback is priceless for people to learn interpersonal dynamics without having to interact with other humans. 

[9:39] June has a fascinating background, from competing internationally  to building a 132 room five star hotel in Belfast, and acting as the director in numerous successful companies. This corporate background helped her fully understand the need of leaders and managers to get the proper training to deal with the stress that comes from financial burdens and work pressures. It taught her that you can not work with horses and have your head somewhere else, but rather fully be immersed in the present moment. 

[16:34] June discusses her work with veterans and helping them manage the very painful symptoms of PTSD. They began to trust the process and the horses, and found that building rapport with these animals could help them take baby steps to trusting the outside world. Even if it took dozens of times to try again, the horses were always there waiting to help. 

[25:21] Jo talks about the pressure she put on herself to work with horses the right way, and how the horse responded by leaning away from her in the pen. By letting go of the pressure and the attachment to a certain outcome, she could physically relax a little and the horse picked up on this and reflected back a calmer and more trusting energy. 

[29:42] As humans, we often argue for behavior we know doesn’t work because we are too afraid of letting go of control. J.J. talks about seeing clients cling on to something they know won’t work just to not feel scared or threatened. This ties into horses because the more we can drop the need for control, the more we can connect with a horse’s heart and mind the more they choose to follow instead of back away or resist. 

[39:34] We spend so much of our days clenched and tightened. June helps people learn to relax their body and smile with “all four cheeks”. Jo shares how post burnout, she saw how disconnected she was from the neck down. Reiki helped her unblock some of the stuck energy and tune in to where she felt most tense. 

[45:42] Instead of validating the fear and letting it go, no one wants to admit they are scared. Horses can completely pick up on this and when we are being inauthentic. J.J. says how teenagers are also an example of pure and natural energy that isn’t afraid to call it like they see it. 

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

June Burgess 

Smiling With Four Cheeks 

Horse Workshops with June 

Jo and J.J. are on their own this week and have a lot to discuss, including the unfortunate passing of Jo’s family dog, takeaways from the recent appearance of Prince Harry on the Dax Shepard podcast, and how to share your vulnerable emotions without coming across as self-indulgent or too long-winded. They also talk about how therapists balance transparency with boundaries, having conversations with people that may not have done the work yet, and why it’s important to give yourself the tenderness and space to think especially during a time of extra stress and grief. The episode ends with J.J. promising to meet up with Jo for a tour of a city close to you sometime in the not-too-distant future!

Takeaway:

[2:20] J.J. returns from a visit to Los Angeles, and Jo starts the countdown to her 50th birthday. Only 18 more months to go!

[4:05] Jo and J.J. discuss Prince Harry on a recent episode of Dax Shepard’s podcast, Armchair Expert. He was there to open up about the cycle of hurt and pain, but the press picked up more about the drama within the Royal Family instead of the mental health aspect, knowing it would get more clicks.

[6:33] J.J. doesn’t worry about being a dick, even when she’s being direct. In a world where a lot of people just spew out their emotions online, sometimes it is better to wait for people to ask before sharing and baring all. She and Jo discuss the boundary between spilling your guts and keeping it all inside a professional world. Our society is pretty unbalanced in the world of mental health, but real support doesn’t typically come from just a lengthy post on social media or unloading everything to an untrained friend or co-worker. There are healthier options.

[9:20] J.J. talks about bringing her older little dog to sessions, and not knowing how much clients would be invested in seeing her and their disappointment when she passed.

[11:06] When J.J. is feeling in a low mood or tired, she lets her clients know that she is feeling that way, and it has nothing to do with them. This way she is authentic about how she feels, and it sets clear boundaries for the client.

[12:21] In any type of performance setting or a social situation, we can feel pressure to perform or turn it on while we are feeling in a low mood or even grieving. It’s hard to muster it up, and it’s both brave to mention it and also brave to muster up the courage to know sometimes the show just must go on.

[13:35] Jo had to say goodbye to her sweet family dog, and with it comes a wave of emotions, one after the next. What has been surprising for her has been the strength of the emotion and the awareness and acceptance of it. As she lets herself grieve, J.J. adds that most people don’t mind seeing their friend or loved one cry, even though we can fear it will scare others away or turn them off from us being “too much”. This is where radical acceptance of reality comes in and learning how to receive someone’s help and support provides a gift for both us and them.

[17:18] Most humans have a repelling type of action for what doesn’t feel real. There is inauthenticity to vomiting all over social media, and even if it’s subconscious, we can feel the difference. We can feel truth, honesty, honest vulnerability.

[18:44] A lot of our mental health and vulnerability is unspoken for now, but hopefully, it will become more spoken and more of the norm in the future. For now, we don’t have to put words to know that we can feel truth, honesty, and love.

[22:17] In the show featuring Prince Harry, he may have been doing something from an authentic place, and it’s getting twisted. This ties into the need to have vulnerable conversations, but knowing humans can judge others very quickly when they view something as inauthentic. Does his high profile help progress mental health, or not?

[23:12] It’s important to not get bogged down by global groupthink. Jo says that if even one person can learn from or relate to her work, it’s worth it.

[24:19] Jo has an intense irritation to people who vomit out their feelings in a way that minimizes true mental health discussions, and she has a fear and worry that if those are the voices that are heard and judged, it has an impact on the bigger picture. 

[25:40] J.J. commends Jo on her bravery, emotional intelligence, and her ability to manage emotions according to their value.

[27:11] The next time you find yourself irritated with everyone and everything throughout your day, it may be a sign that you need to give yourself extra self-care and tenderness.

Tweetables:

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Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Prince Harry on Armchair Expert

Jo’s good friend, HR Manager, and super step-mom Jessica Whytehorn joins the show this week. She talks with us about families from different backgrounds coming together to form a strong and respectful unit. Jessica shares her own story about how she adapted to a family that originally spoke different languages, and worked to create an element of respect and tolerance. Jessica also talks with us about how to know when to let go so the kids can fly the nest. We may be thinking the kids are not ready to be on their own or even just to take a small step towards independence, but very often it comes from the grown up not being ready. There may never be a moment and sometimes it’s just a matter of letting go bit by bit for both. How do we know when it’s time? Tune in and let’s discuss.

Takeaway:

[0:59] Jessica is an HR manager passionate about inspiring others. She has a strong belief that clear and effective communication skills can help manage almost any situation. She is also a mom to a step family of three kids, with a mix of different countries and native languages.

[3:07] Besides admittedly being a wee bit insane, Jessica joined the show because she wanted to say yes, we are all a little crazy, and that is more than okay. We are not perfect, and we can learn from our so-called failures.

[6:02] Jessica has embraced taking risks in her life and left her Jamaica home at 21 to move to Britain and eventually Belgium. Living in different countries has shown her that when you appreciate people’s differences, you can embrace them on all levels.

[7:28] It’s okay to still be playful as an adult. We often take our lives so seriously that we forget it’s fun to have fun, and allowed!

[9:00] Jessica shares a story about watching a swallow make a nest and how it dawned on her that if birds understand that their young must leave at some point, why can’t humans get this? As adults, we are scared to let our children go and have them fly the nest.

[11:12] First, we must validate the fear and heartbreak that comes with being a parent.

[17:10] Sometimes as adults we forget that they are still kids. On the one hand, are the parents ready? Jo, J.J., and Jessica share their perspective on when a child actually becomes an adult that can be out on their own. It doesn’t have to be one big event such as them moving out, but even just going for a drive the first time, or in Jessica’s sons case, learning to hand wash their own jeans.

[24:54] When you teach your children basic skills and a little responsibility, you are also showing them that you trust they can do it. This builds confidence and self esteem.

[27:15] Jessica talks about the way she brought about her step family, and immersed them into a new language. French is spoken at home and the kids are bilingual, so they are used to speaking both English and French at home.

[30:02] J.J. gives her tips for blended families. The one thing everyone agrees on is that the parents need to be a united front. Jessica very much appreciates that her kids refer to themselves as brother and sister rather than step-siblings, even when she and her husband did not insist upon it.

[34:45] It’s becoming more common to have a blended family, but yet so many situations are very turbulent. J.J. notes the grace in which Jessica has pulled it off by consistent commitment and understanding.

[35:35] We hear from a new step-mom who writes in with a question. She wants to get involved with her boyfriend’s three children, but not sure where to draw the line. The young child recently said she wanted to be a stay at home mom like her own mother, and this step-mom didn’t know if she should have offered her other opinions? First, it’s best to just be there as a sounding board, and this child may be too young to even need a second opinion on their future career. It’s important to never belittle the mom, and know that the child just wants to be heard. Unity in parenting is of utmost importance.

[42:40] When reading books on parenting advice, pay attention to your instinct and gut to see if anything resonates with your values. It’s okay to screw up, but you want to make mindful decisions as both an individual and on behalf of your family. Write the values out and involve the kids so they have clarity about the general infrastructure within your family unit.

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Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Keeping Up With the Kardashians 

This week, Jo and J.J. welcome Sascha Altman DuBrul, Writer, Educator, Coach, Counselor, and Co-Founder of the Icarus Project. Sascha shares how his own experience with mental health and time in a psychiatric hospital led him to realize that the traditional mental health space had a lot of frailties and faults, and brought him to his life’s mission to bring like minded people together to start to get the education and training they would need to create lasting change. He talks about his decision to also add in traditional clinical education and why that was beneficial and explains the need for communities to come together to empower each other. He and Jo and J.J. also discuss how social and political context must be talked about to understand mental health.

Takeaway:

[2:38] Sascha is a writer and educator and has facilitated workshops for more than two decades. He is part of a growing movement to provide an alternative mental health infrastructure.

[3:34] To him, mental health is the basis of how we relate to ourselves and others out in the world. Sascha’s mission is to help us see our emotional sensitivities as a superpower and less as a burden. He knows firsthand that we can thrive rather than just survive.

[6:02] When Sascha was 18 years old, he had a psychotic break, was locked up in a psychiatric hospital and diagnosed with bipolar disorder. He was just in his late 20’s and harbored all these questions about his treatment and the system itself.

[8:19] Sascha knew there was more than just what his doctors were telling him and the information he was getting from the mainstream medical world. This led him to explore why culture and society are so influenced by politics and funding, and how the society we live in is crazy, making people feel insane for questioning the status quo.

[11:40] One of the foundational tenets of Sascha’s work is the power of validation and knowing you aren’t alone. Many of the anti-stigma campaigns are funded by the pharmaceutical industry, but we need real people stepping up as peers to get real about their challenges to help others feel safe in being vulnerable.

[15:33] Having a sense of identity is so important. When we don’t know who we are, we can fall prey more easily to the dominant ideology of society without really thinking for ourselves.

[21:08] Sascha discusses the multiple training modalities he has done including Internal Family Systems, and how it complements his education both from Hunter College School of Social Work and Silverman School of Social Work. Working in the public mental health system in New York City he saw that there was so little talk about actual mental health, and people shied away from talking about their own lived experience. He also saw that helpers get paid very little and working in the system is extremely stressful, thankless, and challenging.

[26:13] The Peer Movement is a radical way to transform the system and train people that part of their job is self-disclosure.

[28:42] Sascha talks with J.J. and Jo about having connections inside the system but maintaining ourselves outside the system through training and education. You can get a clinical degree,  but it’s important that the people that have had the lived experience are getting heard. Otherwise, there are blind spots in professional treatment that go unaddressed.

[35:18] The current mental health system is too old and needs to be rebuilt. Sascha discusses the global mental health movement and how both from top-down and from the bottom up, there are glaring issues that include Western ways of thinking petrochemical companies and Big Pharma are our only saviors.

[42:55] What really increases mental health? Money and resources, not just doing one type of therapy. We need to redistribute resources to people in the world, so people are able to take care of themselves first on a basic human needs level.

[48:42] It takes a lot of energy to want to hurt or harm oneself, and these are very energetic symptoms. Once redirected in a healthy way, it can possibly be a transition to putting more energy into positive habits and creativity.

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Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Sascha 

IDHA | Sascha DuBrul | TEDx

Macy Matarazzo is a Relationship Expert for Single Women, and creator and founder of The SuperLOVED System. Macy talks with us about the essential element of accepting yourself in order to find someone that accepts you too, and shares how one post about loving soup on a dating app changed her life forever. We talk with Macy about dissolving the fear and limiting beliefs about finding love as a career-focused woman, how to stop “winging it” when looking for love, and that it’s okay to not have everything in life topped off with a big red bow.

Takeaway:

[2:16] Macy is a relationship expert and creator of the SuperLoved system. She put off finding love as she climbed the corporate ladder, thinking she didn’t need a man and that it wasn’t possible to have both love and a successful career. She found herself in her 40s alone, convinced that she may just be unlovable and that it wasn’t in the cards for her.

[3:55] Macy decided to put her preconceived notions away and just be vulnerable on a dating app about who she really was and what she did and did not like. Soon enough, Larry came along the rest is history from just one “you had me at soup” comment.

[4:38] When we share who we really are, we find people that are more truly aligned to our essence, instead of people just around because of who we are pretending to be. Macy was sharing aspects of herself that she thought were unattractive and that would repel men away, but really it was her authenticity that brought in the perfect match.

[8:32] What we consider to be our flaws are most often the things people dig about us and find to be endearing quirks. However, in order to not get kicked off the island of love, society brainwashes us that we need to be a certain way.

[11:20] As human beings, we show different elements of ourselves with others. Our friends may get the “real” us, while we often put on a social mask for the outside world and especially when we are trying to attract a partner or in the beginning stages of dating. J.J. talks about the feeling of playing a role at a former job, where the suit and pantyhose she put on felt inauthentic to her true character. When we don’t take a step back and evaluate what we are actually doing, it’s easy to get swept away in the real or perceived expectations of others.

[13:21] J.J. spent last year closed off to the idea of a relationship because she thought it wasn’t possible to have a relationship that didn’t detract from work, but now she is totally open to something new and the possibility that two people could be greater than the sum of their parts. Macy gives an example where two professional singles got together, and their business flourished even more so because they had the energy and support of each other.

[19:15] Every passing moment is a new opportunity to use our imagination to create what we want out of life.

[21:41] We can create new neural pathways and grooves by first observing our patterns and making a conscious choice to change them. A big part of DBT is the one way we usually respond and having the courage to take a different way that produces a new outcome. It can feel hard to go down the new path, but there is also wisdom in realizing it can also be light and easy.

[27:46] To quote the RuPaul Drag Show, “If you don’t love yourself, how can you love anyone else?” For Macy, appreciation is a gateway drug for self-love. It is a work in progress, and some days are easier than others to give yourself total acceptance and internal validation.

[33:27] Shame is a signal that we are outside of our values, and it’s a discipline to act in ways that are aligned with your core values.

[35:01] We must be ourselves what we are asking for others to be in relationships.

[39:23] Macy helps people be resilient in dating and realize that one rejection doesn’t mean they are completely unlovable or doomed for eternal loneliness.

[43:36] We don’t need to put a red bow on every situation, it’s okay to let go of our imagined expectation and fully see what is happening in reality, even if it’s not the way we pictured it. 

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Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Macy 

Website | LinkedIn

Dr. Deb Sandella — Regenerating Images in Memory

Caroline Myss

RuPaul’s Drag Race

This week, we are joined by Pauline Carville, TV presenter, theatre director, and highly regarded singing teacher in Belfast. Pauline talks about her commitment and passion towards mental health, her decision to get help for her own struggles, and how the process made her a better performer and artist overall. Pauline talks about meeting her husband Robert Elliot, who now joins her co-presenting The BIG Show on NVTV. She also talks about adapting her play, Am I Mad or What? into a book, and how that experience helped her process deep emotions and get through to the other side. All three women talk about how we can show up playing a role in our everyday lives, and how to recognize when that is happening so we can stop, get the help we need, and show up authentically for ourselves and others.

Takeaway:

[2:23] Pauline offers high-quality singing lessons in Belfast, she trained and graduated as a singer and singing teacher from the prestigious Royal Academy of Music under the mentorship of the renowned Vocal Specialist Mary Hammond and X Factors’ Vocal Coach Annemarie Speed. She also trained as an actor at the Royal Conservatoire Scotland.

[2:30] Pauline is very passionate about mental health and is an advocate for being open about emotional and mental health struggles. She opens up about how the sudden passing of her own father affected her at age 14. This was a very distressing experience, and she was frightened to fully talk about the depression and anxiety it caused her because she was afraid of the stigma and possible consequences. J.J. adds that gifted misfits that are very talented but feel tortured and tormented often hide their sadness and try to bury it. For Pauline, she thought she could tuck it away and try to use the emotion as an actress, but she found that risking her own mental health was not worth the brilliant performances.

[8:02] While on holiday in Belgium, Pauline also witnessed the attempted rape of a member of the family she was staying with. This pain already added to the depression she was feeling, and a protective wall went up in order to survive. This wall can only serve us for so long until it becomes a cage in our adult years.

[14:38] The best actors and actresses need to have the emotional intelligence to know the difference between performing on and off stage. Pauline speaks with Jo and J.J. about the theatre classes she gives and points out that it’s often difficult to get adults to delineate between the two, but the youth are less challenging because they are more open and adaptable. J.J. also needed to take a break from acting because she found that actors and actresses were just living a mirage of life rather than really being in the moment as a regular human and not a performer. For Pauline, singers are really spectacular because they have a lot of depth and it’s the type of thing one can’t fake.

[20:06] Becoming a TV presenter was a new exciting experience for Pauline and found it a great way to learn about others, inspire them with the way she shows up in the world, and let down her barriers for the world to see.

[21:48] We don’t have to just be actors to play a role in our lives. Jo played the role of a super self-confident tax consultant that could make everything interesting.

[24:25] Pauline speaks about the process of writing her book, Am I Mad or What? and getting through a few of the more painful chapters. She had moments of depression, pain, and heartache, but it was good for her to feel the emotions and get them out in her conversational and open style.

[34:16] The more we can accept the weirdness and flaws in ourselves and others, the less suffering we would have overall in our society.

[34:50] Pauline talks about the evolution from her play to the book, and how she benefitted from having her husband Robin beside her. Robin listens to her and hears her for what she really has to say, and this gives her a safe space to create and share her work while getting feedback from someone she deeply respects. The two work together brilliantly, minus the occasional row about lapel microphones.

[38:02] Pauline speaks openly about her first marriage, and the different strategy she took when getting back on the market.

[43:48] Everything Pauline does is under the umbrella of being good for her overall mental health. She has learned to not overschedule herself, take breaks, and put herself first.  After years of fighting it, she has now learned to listen to her gut and let it guide her through life.

Connect With Us:

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Pauline Carville 

Twitter | Singing Lessons Belfast | The BIG Show | LinkedIn

This week, we welcome Kristine Goad, author of Surfing Your Edge and personal transformation coach. We talk with her about embarking on the biggest adventure in life, finding out who we really are and having the courage to embrace it and show it off to the world. Kristine feels most alive when doing something out of her comfort zone, and now helps facilitate people throughout their big events in life. Kristine talks with us about embracing her own so-called failures and turning them into life lessons, and advice for trusting your gut and just enjoying the process without having an attachment to a certain outcome. Whether it’s participating in a 48 day cross country bike ride, plunging herself into the ocean for a triathlon or just having the courage to get to know herself better, if there is a fear, Kristine is going to conquer it. 

Takeaway:

[1:56] Kristine helps her clients see themselves for who they truly are and figure out what they want in life. She shares a bit about her own story and how she wasn’t diagnosed properly with depression until there was a crisis. If there is one thing the COVID-19 pandemic has taught us, it’s that we shouldn’t wait until there is a crisis to have a plan and work on our own emotional health. 

[5:50] To Kristine, Surfing on the Edge means doing something you have no clue how to do, and trusting yourself that either you will figure it out during the process, or at the very least you will learn along the way. She shares examples of diving into what scares her the most, whether it’s a surf retreat in Panama or the ocean as part of a triathlon to get over her aversion to swimming in water. To her, if you are living and breathing, you still have time to conquer your fear, or at least get comfortable with the uncomfortability of it. 

[13:08] The worst case scenario that we play in our minds is usually less terrible than what happens in actuality. Jo discusses how there are scary things that she has done in her life that others might have found really overwhelming - like moving to a different country at 18, or leaping off a 20 foot high platform onto, basically, an inflatable mattress; and then there are other things - like publishing a blog post - that sent her off into a spiral of fear outside her comfort zone, things that pretty much anyone else would have thought to be a walk in the park.  Fear is relative, and it’s personal to each of us.  

[18:02] Kristine talks about a bike ride she did for the American Lung Association that lasted 48 days and saw her riding across the US. She didn’t ride every mile on the cross country trip, and that triggered some people and made them feel as though their accomplishments were diminished. This is a perfect example of perfectionism and how it kills our potential for joy when we are just attached to one outcome. One of the reasons that Kristine did the bike ride was that she hoped that somewhere along the way, she would work out what it was that she was meant to do in her life.  Much to her annoyance, Kristine got to the end of the bike ride none the wiser - the universe hadn’t sent her any clues at all (at least, so she thought).   Jo quickly notices that perhaps the universe had been sending her messages - that all she needed to do was be herself.  Just try and stay on the bike, and not worry about anything else.    Kristine explains that over the twenty years following the bike ride she finally came to exactly the same conclusion.

[27:44] It is common for people to do “big” things and feel depressed after, because they don’t feel as happy or complete as they thought they would once they got there. Using her own experience of feeling depressed after the bike ride and not knowing what to do next, Kristine is able to connect with her Surfing On the Edge participants to coach them through their own adventures with compassion and wisdom. 

[30:45] Jo talks about how when she realized that the only way to survive was by being fully herself, she felt both a joy and sadness. When we can fully be ourselves, it gives permission to others to do the same. 

[35:22] Kristine had a fruitful and productive 2020, and then at the start of 2021, she set herself up for 75 Hard, a very rigorous 75 day challenge. This challenge calls for a lot of discipline and consistency, and while those are two attributes Kristine desired more of, she found herself beating herself up for not completing the rigorous tasks. J.J. says that in DBT, we would look at the emotions that were leading to her beating herself up.  

[40:42] Sometimes things happen so organically that we don’t trust it, but we should. Trust the process, and your gut. 

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

Surfing Your Edge 

Kristine Goad | LinkedIn

Flip Your Happy Switch 

75 Hard 

This week, we talk about the need for intention and compassion behind self-care. If we see self care as another thing to check off on the to-do list, we are simply missing the point. We discuss how self-care can be swept up and glorified in our culture of crossing things off our list and showing others how calm and peaceful we are, when in reality that is just not the case. When we feel as though we don’t “self-care” enough or the right way, we flog ourselves and feel worse about ourselves then we even did before we started. We also talk about ways to tune in and feel the emotions that are arising during your self-care, and a powerful tip for ending your work day that your brain will thank you for time and time again. 

Takeaway:

[1:43] Spring has sprung, and J.J. explains why she thinks everyone goes a little bit more mental during this season! People think it’s always positive energy that comes with spring, but it’s not always new flowers in bloom for therapists! Once J.J. figured out that spring fever is not one of her favorite times, she learned to take some time off and practice her own form of self care.  The primal nature that comes with spring leads to impulsivity and we could all benefit during this time to slow down and be more mindful with our decisions and actions. 

[5:10] For self-care to be truly effective, we must be aware of the emotions we are experiencing. Otherwise, it’s just another activity on the to do list. Joanna talks about times when she ups the self care because she is in a self defined “funk”.  Being in a funk is not an emotion of itself - but it describes a feeling of sadness and overwhelm.  JJ explains that by the time Jo is in a “funk”, she has already been dealing with a bunch of stuff in the run up to it.  We must therefore go back one more step where we feel the sadness, fear, that led to the place of overwhelm.  When we recognise and validate those feelings, we can really start to benefit from the self care that we do for ourselves.  Otherwise it is just another exercise of squashing down emotions we don’t want to feel.

 [7:36] To even determine what would be the best self-care for you, slow down and get in touch with what you are feeling. Ask yourself, what does self care look like to you? There are basic ones we all need, like staying hydrated and getting enough sleep, but it can look very different from person to person. It has to have a real heart of compassion to it, and if you are not validating your emotional experience, you have already missed that train. 

[9:48] Jo and J.J. discuss a participant in a UK reality show - a former athlete who has taken up yoga to go through life with less pain.  By his own admission he got incredibly competitive about it and talked in an interview about how that competitiveness was really missing the point.  He then learned to let go of the competitiveness and just do what was right for him.   Too often we might see our self-care as something to win at, compare ourselves to others of how “good” we are at it, or just see it as another thing to conquer. Deliberate and mindful self-care is really what will move the needle, not just doing something to fit in or brag about. 

[12:20] Especially in this era of working from home, it is smart to have a ritual or even just one action that signifies to your brain that you are done working for the day. Whether it’s wearing a piece of jewelry that you take off at the end of your work day, shutting your computer down, or cleaning off your workspace, this signals to the brain that you are done, and it’s time to rest and recover. 

[13:24] If you need external validation, that is an understandable feeling, but it’s not a way to prove your worth or make yourself whole. 

[15:10] Joanna defines the fear of rejection and not being good enough that had a part in leading to her own burnout, which then transferred over in her self-care. When she stopped working super long hours, she started doing more things to look after herself.  However, she had such long held beliefs about working hard and that taking care of herself meant that she was lazy - that when she started to do the self-care, she needed to check in “that she was doing it right”.    At the end of the day, there is no right or wrong, it’s the impact of being calm you are looking for, and that is a process that is internally defined instead of externally decided by your Instagram followers. 

[21:05] Self-care also doesn’t mean lazy, nor does it require a lot of time or money. It can be something as simple as going for a walk, sitting in the sun, making a nice meal, etc. 

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly

This week, we sit down with Audrey Thorne, host of the Lights, Camera, Analysis podcast, teacher and mentor. Audrey herself is a film lover and invites her podcast guests to talk about life lessons through the lens of  movies we all know and love. We talk with Audrey about how we can learn about mental health and emotional intelligence through the movies we watch, what our emotions teach us about our values, and how teachers are coping with the long hours and stress in the profession, particularly during the pandemic.

Takeaway:

[3:18] Audrey’s podcast, Lights, Camera, Analysis provides life lessons through the lens of different films. Audrey is a proud film nerd and her college thesis on “I Love Lucy” proved to her how much we undervalue how much we can learn from films. Audrey’s podcast serves young adults and teenagers for many reasons, one being that it is easier to learn something while you enjoy watching a film than simply listening to an adult telling you what to do.  

[6:11] We discuss two movies that are great for analysis — Perks of Being a Wallflower, and Easy A. These movies have themes about handling mental health, shame, and stigma that can be relatable to young adults. 

[15:31] Trigger warnings are often misconstrued. Instead of an invitation to completely opt out of a conversation or experience, it may be more an opportunity for boundary setting and resilience. We discuss that sensitivity isn’t something to run away from or invalidate, but is there also a possibility sometimes we are being too sensitive? Jo raises the point of how arguably there has been a pendulum shift from an older generation who were told to “suck it up” and who don’t want to talk about their mental health, to the opposite extreme where the younger generation may simply vomit everything they feel on to the table without any filter.  Audrey’s podcast can help provide teens and young adults the tools for handling their sensitive nature that they may not be getting elsewhere.

[18:42] It’s important to have boundaries, but it’s also important for you to challenge yourself and encourage others to do the same. One thing Audrey loves about her work as a teacher is providing the students with social-emotional check-ins to understand how they are feeling and to validate their emotions. When they are clear on their values and show resilience and discipline, it builds their self-esteem and boosts their self-image.

[24:31] Mentors, teachers, and leaders shouldn’t be scared to challenge their students. It’s a teenager’s job to push out, and it’s the teacher, leader or mentor's job to push back in. When we walk on eggshells and hold back, we do everyone involved, including ourselves, a disservice.

[29:55] Things that make us feel passionate and alive can also be somewhat scary! It could be as simple as asking yourself, “Is this going to kill me?” and if the answer is no, finding the courage to move through it, and to remember times that we’ve been brave.

[35:24] There is no set formula to joy, and we don’t need to agree on what the exact steps to feeling joyful should be. Just that it gets a conversation started around emotional intelligence is great, as most people still think “emotional intelligence” means anger management.

[37:24] Audrey discusses how she and her teaching colleagues are taking care of her own mental health, especially during the pandemic. Longer hours and more screen time can also mean more fatigue and burnout, but it’s important to find a little pocket of joys and dedicate some offline time every couple hours.

[42:50] Audrey opens up about the fear of being a terrible teacher in her early years. She learned to have a growth mindset and accepted that you can never be perfect and serve everyone optimally at all times.

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly

Resources

Lights, Camera, Analysis | Audrey Thorne 

This week, we are joined by the extremely wise and generous Olivia Hoffman, who has worked with J.J. for more than a decade, is now her sidekick on their Throw Up Thursday shows on Instagram, and a member of the Unorthodocs collective. Olivia talks about her experience of therapy as a teenager, as well as the generational shift in attitude regarding mental health. Olivia shares advice for some older folks, and she and J.J. talk about breakthrough moments in their own work together where they could see real growth and healing, even through some stubbornness and resistance.

Takeaway:

[2:47] Olivia has been working with J.J. over a decade, and now the two are having fun hosting Throw Up Thursday together on IG.

[5:21] J.J. kicked Olivia out of a therapy session once. They had been talking about something Olivia had done that was really self-sabotaging and self-harming, and Olivia was going through the session saying “I don’t know, I don't know”.  After a certain length of time, J.J. felt that it was her role to push back and challenge Olivia not to continue with the BS. Olivia went away and dug deep, to really see what J.J. was trying to do and the importance of the work they were doing together and came back stronger and fitter than before. Now, so many years of therapy later, Olivia is passionate about helping others benefit from her experience and teaching the tools to many other young adults out there.

[9:31] Olivia opens up about feeling defensive and moving past it because she knew that what she was getting from her work with J.J. was well worth it. We discuss what makes it easier for a younger generation to talk about mental health and their emotions than for our’s (Jo and J.J.’s), who were taught to just suck it up and stop complaining. There are many possible reasons for this, including societal shifts and role models, and it may also be easier for younger people to adapt to mental and emotional shifts because they haven’t created such strong neural pathways around their beliefs, as compared to older people who have built up resilience.

[12:20] It is extremely important for Olivia to get her message out and help other people. Anytime she feels burnt out or has hit a roadblock, she imagines herself helping one more child and it’s definitely worth it.

[14:20] When we are driven by our purpose we are better able to push fear to the side and keep going.

[16:25] The new generations are letting out their emotions, almost to the extreme. Social media makes anyone able to say whatever is on their mind at the moment, but that can come with consequences if not handled correctly.

[19:39] Joanna shares how her experience with burnout not only was tough for her personally but her work colleagues and bosses not knowing how to act around her made it even worse. One of the researchers into burnout makes an analogy to the canary in the mine.  When the canary enters the mine, it is full of song and very healthy — when it falls off the perch, you can’t blame the canary for being down in the mine, you can blame the toxic fumes and gas in the mine for making the canary sick. Similarly, burnout is an indicator of a toxic environment in the workplace. Leaders must look at their teams and see if new hires are experiencing burnout due to dysfunction in the organization itself.

[23:35] J.J. is amazed by all the skilled young people she sees in her practice and is thrilled when someone like Olivia comes out and shares their story with the world.

[24:51] You don’t have to agree with someone to validate their emotions, and you also don’t have to allow much whining after you validate their feelings. In DBT, a statement validating someone’s feelings could sound like, “I understand this is hard, and you can do hard things.” Validating statements are incredibly important. They allow us to validate the stuff that we feel, and this helps in our self-esteem. However, all too often people use similar statements as a means to manipulate others into doing what they want. This is very different from what we are talking about here, and you can feel the difference in intent. The structure of the sentence is also important — and it’s key to note that we avoid the word “but”.  “But” is a powerful word that goes to negate everything that has come before, and used badly will crush the spirit. In this context, we also talk about how (i) we validate the emotion, (ii) we don’t validate the thoughts, and then (iii) we look to move forward into problem-solving.  Traditional psychotherapy might see the therapist let you sit and complain — and this is not going to help you move forward into problem-solving. It is rather enabling and toxic — and it is important to note that if you are turning up for therapy you are turning up to get help to move forward.

[37:55] If you have purpose and you are focused, the fear just falls away.

[41:00] Olivia’s advice to the people in their 40’s and above — Listen. Actually listen to the way you hear things, and how you react, then sit with it and trust that more will be revealed.

Tweetables:

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly

Resources

Throw Up Thursday - Every Thursday at 4 pm PST on J.J.’s Instagram: @drjjkelly

This week, we hear from a listener who worked hard and diligently to get a promotion at work, only to now have crippling anxiety, imposter syndrome, and a whole lot of stress about doing their new job correctly. We talk about the stress and anxiety that commonly occurs when taking on a new role at work, and how that anxiety can turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy if not managed correctly. We discuss the difference between the initial pain or fear that then creates suffering, analysis paralysis, and a feeling of non-stop impending doom. 

How can we break the cycle, challenge our thoughts, and find a new way of working and living while trying our best? Tune in to find out!

Takeaway:

[4:30] Our listener this week was promoted in their job six months ago. They were excited at first, but now the reality of this new responsibility is bringing terror and fear about making a mistake and screwing everything up.

[6:31] Joanna can really relate to this situation, and talks about one such career transition that took place when she was working in corporate.  After working really hard and demonstrating she was worth the promotion, the problems quickly set in after she took on the new role. She started stressing herself out about every aspect of the job, and in particular started to panic about making decisions that six months previously had been a walk in the park.   She started to get so overwhelmed with worry thoughts that it affected her focus and created a self-fulfilling prophecy, until things came to a head one day when her boss took her to one side and had words with her.

[9:14] J.J. discusses how DBT approaches the difference between pain and suffering. Suffering is the non acceptance of pain.  In this example, the  pain is the fear and performance anxiety. The pain is natural, but the suffering occurs when we don’t accept it to be real - instead we stay in constant worry, believing our worst fears and treating our negative thoughts as facts.

[13:10] We understand that it’s ok for others to make a mistake — even in life or death situations — because to err is human.  But when we do it, we tend to beat ourselves up and see it as though we’ve let everyone down on something earth-shatteringly important.

[14:47] Great leaders create an environment where their team is able to be open and honest about making a mistake, and they use their knowledge and experience to move forward in the best way. This is particularly important in companies where innovation is key - we can only have innovation if we are comfortable making mistakes.  It’s not easy though, because we are brainwashed by society to try and come across as picture-perfect and as though we’ve got it all together.

[20:08]The conversation turns to burnout in the workplace, and the work that Jo is doing to break down the stigma around the topic.  Many big companies are investing funds to put programmes in place to promote a better work life balance in the workplace, but in a number of cases there does not seem to be much traction or change.  There may be many reasons behind that, and Jo suggests that one of them may be the mis-perception among the staff that the leaders do not really buy in the programme and are merely paying lip service.  Jo suggests that the truth may be more complex - not so much that the leaders do not buy in, but more that they are not ready or willing to talk about how they are suffering in front of their teams.  There are many valid reasons why a leader would be unwilling to do this - however, in not doing so there is a risk that the staff misunderstand.  If they believe the leaders are just paying lip service, this will give rise to frustration among the staff, and a reluctance to change things from their side.   Jo is now on a mission to talk about burnout and what leaders can do to take care of themselves, even if these are difficult conversations.  And every time that she shares her TEDx or talks about the book, she gets feedback from others thanking her for sharing the story.  

[25:49] In talking about the suffering that comes when we don’t face up to the emotions that we are experiencing, Jo points out that one reason this can happen is that we simply don't know we are facing those emotions.  Very concretely, Jo explains that at the time she was working in corporate and riddled with fear and self doubt, she didn't actually know she was riddled with fear and self doubt.  She just thought she was trying to get through the day and not screw up.  With hindsight it is clear that there was that uncertainty, and if she had known it at the time, she might have been able to validate that emotion and avoid the suffering.  But she didn’t. 

 [28.26] You know what, it’s scary to do a new job, to uplevel.  And it is normal to feel scared.  We need to validate that emotion, and then allow ourselves to deal with the emotion so we can move on.

[32:20] Feeling relaxed and having fun is all-around better for business and productivity. Instead of sparing your sleep and self-care, get that walk-in. Drink some water. Breathe.

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly

Resources

Distress Tolerance 

Jo’s TEDx 

Brene Brown 

This week, we sit down with Kim Kelly, managing editor of Local Women’s Magazine in Northern Ireland, to talk about multiple issues such as the worrying level of suicide among young men in Northern Ireland. We discuss the social attitudes and stories we learn that dictate our behavior, dealing with narcissists, teaching our kids how to be decent people, and dating in your forties while actually having fun!

Takeaway:

[5:02] Local Women’s Magazine shines a spotlight on the awesome women doing big things all around the world. The photoshoots are of ordinary women, and the readers are outspoken and very involved.

[7:37] The suicide rates for young men in Northern Ireland are particularly high and mental health is a massive issue in our community.

[13:37] Globally, there is a gross lack of emotional intelligence skills.

[14:10] There are many aspects of mental health that we don't talk about openly.  Jo’s particular mission is to get more people talking about burnout at work. We don’t talk enough about burnout, and many people are left feeling ashamed and isolated rather than supported and able to learn how to fully relax and manage stress.

[18:02] Kim talks about her time working for the tabloid press, and the realization that we need to focus more on what we can do instead of focusing on our limitations and setbacks. Too often she would lead a conversation by telling everyone all the things that she couldn’t do.

[22:06] When you have a system for internal validation, it is quite freeing and you can better focus on being competent and aligned with your values and spend less time worrying about if you are likeable.

[26:22] Of course culture makes a difference (both Jo and Kim grew up in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, and there is a lot of baggage that comes with that), but J.J. discusses choosing your values and acting according to that. It doesn’t take away from the emotions we feel, but it’s up to us to change our story and know today is a brand new day to step out and even inspire others to live in their truest form.

[32:53] The stories we tell ourselves are often just one version of the truth, and there can be many different ways to approach them.

[35:32] Brilliant idea alert: when dealing with a narcissist, it is extremely powerful to just nod, agree, and not engage in an argument. Often their ranting will simply be down to them trying to get you to manage their stress. Another way to handle narcissists is to learn to accept that they will misperceive YOU to be the asshole in the relationship.

[39:30] Don’t get into it with delusional people! It’s not effective and will just create more resistance and is overall a waste of time.

[46:41] There is a dire need for more social learning in schools, as human social skills are everything for adapting in life and learning how to better navigate almost any situation.

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly

Resources

Joanna in Local Women’s 

Local Women’s 

@localwomenmagazineofficial

Research on likeability or competence  

In today’s world of everyone posting their Hollywood reel on their IG and Facebook, it’s easy to be bombarded with the feeling of comparison and wondering if you measure up or are good enough. This week, we talk about looking inside ourselves for validation and confidence rather than needing to get it from the outside world. We talk about the cost of constant comparison, why women are set up by society to feel catty and competitive, and why connection and belonging doesn’t start with flaunting your latest purchase. We give practical tips on how to start feeling secure from within and building self love that will in turn let others in to see who we really are.

Takeaway:

[3:34] Perfectionism is the new form of heroin, not heroism! It is a drug, and one way people try and get their fix is both by trying to show how perfect their life is through social media, and by comparing themselves to how much better or worse they are than others. The first step to responsible social media usage is knowing that most of what people post is curated with this in mind, and not the messy and authentic reality of life.

[5:19] There is enough success to go around, so we don’t need to be desperate about success. The idea that we have to be scrappy and claw our way to the top is bred from a patriarchal society. The beauty industry is just one of many examples where the industry thrives off people not feeling good enough. Think about how many businesses would go bankrupt if we actually liked the way we looked!

[7:28] We would have been your favorite witches, burned at the stake for having our own opinions and ideas! The feeling of wanting to belong and be accepted not only comes from advertising and our upbringing, but also is thread into society as a survival mechanism.

[8:12] We think internal validation is extremely difficult, but really it’s just that we are not taught how to do it. When we start to name our emotions, we shift from external to internal validation and get a stronger sense of who we are and what we are feeling.

[9:15] When you are able to validate yourself, you cling less to the opinions of others. You work with your higher powers and get stronger, resilient, and more confident.

[17:05] The more you can give yourself internal validation, the less you fear rejection and judgement from others. It’s liberating and frees you up more energy and space to live your authentic life.

[21:59] Internal validation is especially important in dating, as it can be challenging for people to feel good enough to stay single until someone worthy shows up.

[24:42] The body speaks to us about our negative emotions, and feeling unworthy can show up as many different feelings or symptoms with our body. The first step is raising awareness of our own emotional experience.

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly 

Resources

Brene Brown 

Brene’s book about belonging is called Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to stand alone

George Michael “Freedom”

This week we talk about Penelope, a recent divorcee whose 16-year-old daughter blames her for ruining her life. She is taking out her anger on Penelope and it seems to be having an impact on the household and their mother/daughter relationship. Penelope’s situation sparks a deeper conversation about setting family contracts into place, when to have tough conversations with your kids and bringing in awareness to know which events that may trigger you that have nothing to do with your children.

Takeaway: 

[2:27] New project announcements! J.J. is finalising  her third book and it's all about narcissists!  It will be out soon, and will be edgy, smart, and most of all — helpful to many people.

[7:24] This week we are talking about Penelope, who recently got divorced. Her 16 year old daughter says that this ruined her life, and she is very withdrawn and now just sits at dinner pushing food around her plate, refusing to eat, and determined to piss Penelope off! What should Penelope do?

[8:05] The first step is validating your daughter’s feelings. She should know that it’s okay to feel angry, sad, etc., and your door is always open to listen. However, it’s not okay for her to act on those emotions towards you and break family values and boundaries.

[10:14] It is not a requirement that Penelope’s 16 year old daughter validate or empathize Penelope’s emotions. You give to your kids, and they give to their kids. They are not there to emotionally soothe you.

[10:30] Penelope could tell her daughter that she can talk about any feelings, but it must be done respectfully and there will be consequences to breaking family values. She should reassure her that the divorce was not because of anything she did, nor does it mean she is any less loved.

[12:48] This situation raises an interesting question — at what point are kids old enough to be told the realities of difficult life situations?  Here we discuss sharing details on a divorce, but this might also be relevant for talking about money difficulties, losing your job, serious illnesses…It is true that kids often pick up on what is happening in the household - and that is different to baring all or bad mouthing in the relationship.  It’s not an easy question, nor is there an easy answer. 

[15:42] It is up to the parents to get clear on family values and to communicate the consequences when/if they are broken. This brings clarity into the household, keeps boundaries strong and the kids safe.  This is equally relevant after a divorce, and perhaps even more so.  If both parents can’t agree on one contract, each household has its own separate contract. Also, it is important not to disparage the other parent in front of your child.  It's equally important to reinforce that a “contract” does not have to be a long scary thing, and it will evolve as your kids get older.

[17:04] Reinforce what your daughter is doing right. The less “what if” thinking they can do about thinking everything is their fault or if the situation would be different had they acted differently the better.

[18:41] Take it from J.J., it could be much, much worse than your daughter acting out by just pushing food around a plate! Don’t put your food issues on your kid, and if you are worried about them being under/over weight, it’s best to talk to a doctor. It’s the emotions that we validate, not thoughts and not the behavior.

[24:02] Jo raises the point that there may be certain behaviours of your kid that will trigger things in you, things that are more about your own life experience than the kids themselves. We talk here how watching your kid push food around the table may trigger memories of your own experiences with food.  But that doesn't mean that your kid has a problem. Just that you are being triggered. Take responsibility for being mindful and recognizing your triggers before you are in an emotionally intense situation. Make a list of triggers that are your sensitive points where you could get hooked and could project onto your kids when it really comes from within you.

[30:56] It’s never too late to reestablish the working contract with your kids. It provides a framework to know you are doing the best you can with what you’ve got.

For more details on family contracts:

Check out JJ’s book on cutting - Holy Shit , My Kid is Cutting! available for free on her website

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly 

Our letter this week is from Jane, who is completely fed up with her team and feeling like they are bumbling idiots who can’t get anything right! To make it even worse, her boss isn’t backing her up or helping by any means. 

We help Jane (and maybe you!) see things from a fresh new perspective by taking a step back, checking-in with gut feelings and asking tough questions. While she may think that her team are idiots that doesn’t make it true - perhaps Jane is simply so exhausted and stressed out and angry that she can no longer see things straight. Maybe taking a step back will help her to rethink things, and look to find some solutions.  Or maybe things have just gone too far, and Jane needs a new job and is too afraid to really confront those feelings. 

Either way, tune in to find out more!

Takeaway: 

[3:21] We discuss the case of Jane who says her team are a bunch of idiots and they can’t do anything right! It not only makes her question if people can be that stupid but also angry that her boss isn’t backing her up and giving her the support she needs.

[6:15] We pull apart the threads for Jane, validating her anger and getting to the bottom of what she really is angry about. She possibly could really be that mad at her team, but there are also other elements to it around her boss not supporting her, as well as other things that might be going on in her life right now..

[13:04] It's not about who is right or wrong, it is about reducing pain and suffering and that can mean many things.

[16:15] Just because Jane thinks her team are a bunch of idiots, does not mean that they actually are.  When we are stressed and anxious (for example because of the pressures of work) it can often happen that we can no longer see straight.  While we validate the emotions, the thoughts we have are merely thoughts. Jane may want to work on managing the impact of her emotions, so she can take a step back to come up with solutions for working with her team and staying centered.

[18:53] Of course, another possibility is that things have just got so bad for Jane, that there is no going back.  Fear can trick us into believing that a job or situation we are in is the best choice, but really we are just afraid of the “what if’s” that may come with leaving it. This may be a time for Jane to check-in with her gut and see if this is really even a job she wants to be at.

[20:03] The exhausting part of situations like this is usually resistance to some reality.

[28:20] We discuss going even deeper into the emotions that come up. Going three steps down from sadness and anger often gives us a whole new level of answers about our situation that may be surprising.

[29:03] Ask the hard questions! For Jane, she may ask if she even wants to be at her job if this is the reality!

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly

Are you getting in your own way, and sabotaging and preventing yourself from getting what you really want or feeling as good as you can? 

This week, we tackle Sam’s situation — who is nervous about an upcoming speaking gig — and discuss different methods in which he can ease the fear and feel more confident. Then, Joanna talks about her own experience of when precision turned into perfectionism, and it led her to counterproductive feelings of exhaustion and burnout. We invite you to ask yourself, at what point does the need to be precise (because your job requires it) become an unhelpful and exhausting need to be perfect (because you think that is the only way to be accepted)?  What things are you doing that you think are helpful, but are actually getting in your own way? Tune in to find out!

Takeaway: 

[9:02] Sam writes about a speaking engagement coming up that is bringing him a ton of anxiety. He is appearing on a panel after another colleague couldn’t do it, and having nightmares about freezing up and everyone laughing at him.

[9:51] Worrying about an event that hasn’t even happened yet, is very common, especially when it comes to public speaking, and there is no need to feel shame about having it.

[13:02] Public speaking is scary and if you can get through it without vomiting (or even just vomiting a little) that’s a win! There is nothing to prove, you are already an expert just delivering information. We talk about some visualization techniques to try to picture it going well and giving the presentation of your dreams.

[15:05] There is power in realizing that our worries and fearful thoughts are not always facts or what is happening in reality. A foundational practice you can start using is to take three deep breaths to help regulate your nervous system a little more before you try your mindfulness and visualization techniques.

[19:04] Good preparation is a great foundation to feeling prepared when it comes to speaking, and also gives you a solid footing in case something out of the expected does arise.

[21:00] The more you perform, the more you get used to that feeling of just being in the moment rather than worrying about what may come next.

[23:40] However, there can be dangers when we prepare too much.  Joanna shares her experience in corporate life and how the desire to be well prepared became almost obsessive.  The need to be precise and accurate is vital when you are working in a tax career, but the challenge came when that need for control bled into every other part of her life.  Her anxiety turned into panic attacks and OCD behaviour.  Sometimes that meant finishing the draft of an email and then spending two hours checking bullet points and semicolons - as though this was what was needed to make the content of the document correct.  The more time spent on those kinds of details, the more exhausted she became.  The more exhausted she became, the more anxious she was, and the more she needed to check the details.  

[25:03] JJ points out that it was clear that this kind of behaviour was not helpful to Jo. Should Jo not have been able to see that, and stop the behaviour before it went too far?  When we get honest and real about willful ways (ie doing things over and over even when they don’t help), we can start to see the signs and get ahead of it before we become too out of balance . As Jo points out, however, sometimes it is only with hindsight, and a lot of rest, that we can see how we were getting in our way in the past and move towards being more effective in the future.

[29:32] What are the ways you consistently behave that are ineffective?

[31:58] Adult versions of willfulness can be perfection, defensiveness, and the “yeah buts”.

Connect With Us: 

Joanna Denton | Dr. JJ Kelly 

Welcome to Jo & JJ Go Mental! We are your hosts, Joanna Denton and Dr. J.J. Kelly, the Punk Rock Doc. We are so excited to bring you a show about mental health, help you up your emotional intelligence skills, and most important of all - have fun and get some laughs in. We are dedicated to bringing you tangible skills you can implement right away to improve your relationships, bring more joy into your own life, and embrace all the awesomeness that you have to offer.  

This week we talk all about standing up for our values against those who try to intimidate and bully us . We talk about a recent email that Joanna got and discuss her different possible responses towards this digital bully. Joanna shares how the email made her feel, and she walks through the D.E.A.R. approach to draft up an email that aligns with her values. While this episode talks about using this approach to say no to something we don’t agree with, it can also be used to ask for what we need, and to handle conflict.

It’s possible to stand up for your values with confidence, clarity, and simplicity, but there are important things to know! Tune in to find out more. 

Takeaway: 

[4:35] As an example of how to handle a bully, we will be working with a recent email Joanna received. 

[6:20] Joanna explains the situation behind her email and the different replies she has drafted in her head as she lays awake in bed. 

[8:12] Here on Jo & JJ Go Mental we are open to honoring our anger and standing up for yourself. The first step to any of our tools on emotional intelligence is to recognise and name the emotion we are feeling.  Too many problems in life come when we think we don’t have the “right” to feel what we feel.

[8:49] When Joanna read the email, she felt intense irritation. She and JJ discuss how irritation is a cousin of anger, and how anger is commonly associated with feeling out of control, when that is not always the case. 

[10:59] If you are ruminating about an issue, that means there is anger work yet to be done. One great way to process it is to write out all your ugliest thoughts. 

[11:05] We discuss the interpersonal skill set: D.E.A.R (Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce) and how it relates to Joanna’s email and the response she wants to write. 

[13:20] Focus on the objective and less on the outcome. Here the objective is to stand up for what we believe and craft a response to the email that reflects our values.  But, we can’t control the response of others or the actual outcome of the conversation. [16:51] The more anxious we are the more wordy we tend to be. There is power in being direct, potent, and concise. 

[22:07] Tone is everything. We all have a responsibility for our tone. 

[25:01] We are allowed to stand up for ourselves and our values, even if it pisses someone else off completely. Kindness also doesn’t mean saying yes all the time. It can look like you saying “no” for something that doesn’t fit your values or boundaries. 

[27:36] In every walk of life, we are going to come across people that want something we can’t give them, and also bullies that use their power to try and keep us small and intimidated. It can be scary to say no to both these people, but it doesn’t need to be complicated, and we have a right to that. 

[29:07] It takes practice to stand up for yourself, so you may need to practice by writing it out beforehand or practicing in front of the mirror or to a friend. 

[29:45] Even more than just getting what you want, the real celebration takes place in skillful delivery according to your values. 

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A Different Truth 

Holy Shit, I’m a Gifted Misfit! 

This is a weekly half hour show about mental health and emotional intelligence, dedicated to bringing you hands on and tangible skills that you can put into practice straight away to improve your relationships, inject more joy into your life, and learn to like yourself again. It takes the form of a conversation between the hosts, about topics either picked at random from a jar, or relating to topical news.